As as general comment, do the stats geeks have to turn nearly every thread into a pissing contest or is it possible to just discuss basketball as a game not a scientific anomaly?
Great post. Your responses to Greybeard were largely of the "you beat me to it" variety!
I agree with you for the most part. In addition to not wanting to acknowledge unassailable objective facts when they contradict his subjective opinions, Greybeard has, again, misrepresented my evaluation of Tyler Thornton's game. Thornton isn't a great on-ball defender. He is easily beaten into the lane by opposing guards, and that's not limited to only the elite penetrating points. And that difficulty that Ty has is one reason for the large number of fouls he commits, especially on a per-minute basis. He fouls because he has been beaten. I demonstrated for pretty much all of last year when I was doing the game-by-game, play-by-play analysis of our defense that Thornton did poorly in moving his feet and staying in front of penetrating guards -- a very important skill for a perimeter defender to have. While less of a problem than his feet, his short stature is a defensive liability as well, as it is easy for opponents to shoot right over him.
But that's not to say Thornton doesn't have value, in particular on defense. I wouldn't say, as you did, that he's a "terrific" defender. But I agree that he is better off-the-ball defensively than he is on-the-ball. He positions well, he shades, he helps, he switches appropriately. I see all of those things. And I do believe that his aggressiveness, his willingness to stick his nose in there, his willingness to give up his body, to dive for balls on the floor, etc. has both a very positive effect on his Duke teammates and diminishes the will of the opponent. And that (along with his leadership skills) is why K gives him minutes -- rightfully so in my opinion.
Offensively, I also agree with you that other than his 3-point shooting -- and I would clarify it to say his 3-point shooting from the corners, which he has improved substantially this year -- Thornton gives us very little offensively. I have thought that ever since I first saw him play, and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. His handle is OK. Not terrible, but certainly nothing like a Quinn Cook's. My main problem with him offensively is that he does nothing to threaten the defense. He doesn't penetrate and dish. Nor does he often make aggressive, penetrating passes to teammates, either into the post or to hit cutters. And he doesn't create his own shot. He just doesn't put much pressure on the defense from the point. Which is a big reason why he doesn't play point much anymore, as you have correctly pointed out.
What really doesn't impress judges is stating something as a fact, and continuing to insist that it is a fact even when presented with conclusive evidence that it is not a fact. If you ever wanted to create a way to have a judge tune out the rest of your argument, start out by asserting something as fact and then stubbornly stick to that assertion no matter how clearly and completely it is refuted. If an attorney, or any other person, can't admit when he is wrong or when he has made a mistake, he inevitably loses credibility going forward, and his ability to convince others of the correctness of future positions he takes is damaged substantially. That's just the way it is.
Last edited by tommy; 03-14-2013 at 05:31 PM.
As as general comment, do the stats geeks have to turn nearly every thread into a pissing contest or is it possible to just discuss basketball as a game not a scientific anomaly?
It depends on the chemical composition of the urine in question
I, for one, would far rather see stat geeks wrangle on the boards than see ENDLESS arguments of who will/should get how many minutes of playing time. Which, I am happy to say, has seemed to recede recently.
My thoughts exactly. Once again, the level of discourse around here is just too high. More unverifiable claims, please.
I'll start. Judging by facial expressions as I've examined them through my tv set, I say Amile has the highest pain tolerance on the team. Now who's going to step into the Octagon and challenge me?
It only happens 22.7% of the time. Assuming, naturally, that by "pissing contest" you are talking distance in cinder blocks as opposed to an osmolality test.
Having said that, to paraphrase LBJ, I'd rather have Tommy standing in my tent pissing out, than have him outside my tent pissing in.
(History and poly sci major here -- that was LBJ telling RFK why he didn't fire J. Edgar Hoover).
On point -- K consistently singles TT out for praise. Not sure how that doesn't really end the debate about his value. I love the kid and always know we're about to turn the volume to eleven when he comes in.
Agree. Dude is a great Duke team defender, one of the best team defenders in K's history. Were he 6'7-8ish with length he would be Billy King 2.0. Just great instincts and great understanding of how K's defensive scheme's work. I like him as a defender on the wing first and foremost as he is best at that, especially against bigger stronger players as you state. Plus it is easier for him to direct traffic on defense from there than it is when he is the on ball spear of the defense.
That said, I will never forget one very memorable play in a game in Cameron against Maryland his freshman year before he had mastered the team D. He was still great in that particular game and made several plays to help jump start Duke and bring them back from a 2nd half deficit. Anyway, on the play, Singler was defending a pick and roll out high on the left wing, and knew exactly what Maryland was trying to do which was send the big Center (Williams) cutting to the basket on a slip screen move. Tyler had rotated from the weakside into the lane, but was turning to chase his man back out to the 3 point line. Right as Tyler took his first step, Kyle grabbed him with one arm and practically (was going to say "literally" but that seems to be frowned upon by some around here) threw Tyler in front of Williams, and Tyler took the charge as Williams was cutting while looking back to receive the pass from the guard. It was a key play in the game at the time, and helped Duke close out the win.
Just a veteran Dukie teaching a rookie Dukie the ropes on how to play Duke defenses and read the opponents intentions. It did not take long for Tyler to gain the knowledge Kyle had and now it's Tyler doing the teaching on defense to the current crop of rooks. Great stuff!
My time to edit expired. Y'all watch this, and them tell me that TT isn't the straw that stirs the drink:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1JRRK7H2kbY&feature=plcp
-- OPK. "Trusting Coach Wojo since I saw him get his first collegiate floor burn."
Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.
You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner
You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke
Nice! I guess I have to spread some comments out before I can give you anymore forks...
I always thought basketball would be so much more meaningful without all those annoying stats; You know, like fouls, rebounds, steals, and my least favorite... Score. Just go shirts and skins 'til one team gives up.
Yeah I know this comment is about 1 week late in posting, however, after watching recordings of the Duke vs. UNC game, I can't help but laugh every time I see this one particular play. The play occurs in the 2nd half with about 17:20 to go...Seth gets the ball out on the wing and PJ Hairston is guarding him, Seth makes that little stutter-step move and then crosses back over and breaks PJ Hairston ankles! Seth misses the 3pt shot attempt but as PJ gets up off the floor, the look on his face is priceless! Man I wish Seth would have drained that shot! It probably would have made SportsCenter Top 10 plays! GO DUKE!