Why Is Winning The ACC Tournament Such A Big Deal ?

[snowdenscold]

I'd just like to say that as Duke fans, we all should be big fans of the tournament.

Historically, Duke and N.C. State have been partners in promoting and protecting the tournament, while UNC and Maryland have been the leading anti-tournament forces.

It's amazing how consistent that has been, despite the changes in adminostrators and coaches.

It all goes back to the earliest days of the conference, when Duke AD Eddie Cameron and NC State AD Roy Clogston were the chairman and vice chairman, respectively, of the ACC basketball committee -- together they fought for the tournament. Wolfpack coach Everett Case LOVED the tournament ... and his protege Vic Bubas, while not quite as enthusiastic, supported it too. Norm Sloan was a big booster of the tournament, even in '73 and '74 when he was unbeaten in the regular season. Jim Valvano loved the tournament. Mike Krzyzewski has always focused maximum effort on the tournament. Even Herb Sendek and Sidney Lowe had their most success in ACC Tournament play.

On the other hand, Frank McGuire hated the tournament from day one -- but especially after his 1957 undefeated No. 1 team almost lost to Wake Forest in the ACC semifinals. It got worse -- in '59, he tanked the tournament finals because State was ineligible and his own fans never let him hear the end of it. As I noted before, UNC tried to kill the tournament in '61 and when that failed, McGuire urgd UNC to pull out of the ACC. In 1970 -- when he was at South Carolina -- he had an undefeated in the ACC team lose in the ACC finals when John Roche was hurt in the semifinals and his hatred of the tourney exploded. His distaste for the tournament was shared by his successor Dean Smith, although he was never that outspoken about it. But Roy Williams compared it to a big cocktail party and bragged that both his national championship teams had failed to win the ACC Tournament. He's downplayed it ever since returning to Chapel Hill. Maryland's hatred started with Bud Milliken, who called the tournament a $60,000 farce. Lefty Driesell, who had some bad experiences in the Southern Conference Tournament when he was at Davidson, suffered a succession of nightmarish tournament outcomes -- he might have hated it more than McGuire. Gary Williams was never a big fan, since the tourney was usually played in North Carolina and when it did come to Maryland, his Terps lost early.

Anyway, to rip the ACC Tournament is to align yourself with the Tar Heels and Terps ... to celebrate it is your legacy as a Duke fan (or as a State fan).

Although I enjoy the tournament, I definitely can understand the enmity toward it back when only the tournament champ would go to the NCAA's, since it could potentially undercut or discount huge portions (if not all) of the regular season.

There's still an element of that today, although greatly diminished, but it's outweighed by the exciting and fun atmosphere of putting all the league teams together in one place for a weekend.

[Matches]

Back on the day, I would skip work to watch ACC Friday. One of my favorite days of the year.

I wish the tournament still had that kind of cache. It was fantastic when there were 8 teams and they all played on Friday.

The bigger league has made the whole thing much more unwieldy IMO. I want to win it because I want Duke to win every game it plays. And it's still fun to win it - but I don't get euphoric over it the way I used to.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Why play a tournament if you don't want to win it? Duke plays the whole season for the next two tournies coming up. For us as fans it is a big deal, and I have never seen any quote from Coach K to suggest that he doesn't see it as a major accomplishment. (Ol' Roy on the otherhand...his attitude only changes if he makes it to championship Sunday)

[toooskies]

Why is it worth climbing any other mountain than Everest?
Why is it worth swimming any body of water that isn't the entire Pacific Ocean?
Why is it worth getting out of bed in the morning unless you're going to accomplish the greatest thing humanity has ever done?


If all you care about is the national championship, then you may as well start watching college basketball in April.

[Lar77]

I'd just like to say that as Duke fans, we all should be big fans of the tournament.

Historically, Duke and N.C. State have been partners in promoting and protecting the tournament, while UNC and Maryland have been the leading anti-tournament forces.

It's amazing how consistent that has been, despite the changes in adminostrators and coaches.

It all goes back to the earliest days of the conference, when Duke AD Eddie Cameron and NC State AD Roy Clogston were the chairman and vice chairman, respectively, of the ACC basketball committee -- together they fought for the tournament. Wolfpack coach Everett Case LOVED the tournament ... and his protege Vic Bubas, while not quite as enthusiastic, supported it too. Norm Sloan was a big booster of the tournament, even in '73 and '74 when he was unbeaten in the regular season. Jim Valvano loved the tournament. Mike Krzyzewski has always focused maximum effort on the tournament. Even Herb Sendek and Sidney Lowe had their most success in ACC Tournament play.

On the other hand, Frank McGuire hated the tournament from day one -- but especially after his 1957 undefeated No. 1 team almost lost to Wake Forest in the ACC semifinals. It got worse -- in '59, he tanked the tournament finals because State was ineligible and his own fans never let him hear the end of it. As I noted before, UNC tried to kill the tournament in '61 and when that failed, McGuire urgd UNC to pull out of the ACC. In 1970 -- when he was at South Carolina -- he had an undefeated in the ACC team lose in the ACC finals when John Roche was hurt in the semifinals and his hatred of the tourney exploded. His distaste for the tournament was shared by his successor Dean Smith, although he was never that outspoken about it. But Roy Williams compared it to a big cocktail party and bragged that both his national championship teams had failed to win the ACC Tournament. He's downplayed it ever since returning to Chapel Hill. Maryland's hatred started with Bud Milliken, who called the tournament a $60,000 farce. Lefty Driesell, who had some bad experiences in the Southern Conference Tournament when he was at Davidson, suffered a succession of nightmarish tournament outcomes -- he might have hated it more than McGuire. Gary Williams was never a big fan, since the tourney was usually played in North Carolina and when it did come to Maryland, his Terps lost early.

Anyway, to rip the ACC Tournament is to align yourself with the Tar Heels and Terps ... to celebrate it is your legacy as a Duke fan (or as a State fan).

Thank you Olympic for this history. It was something I never knew.

Coach K has always said that he gears his teams to win championships. He'd like to win every game, but that doesn't happen. Our non conference schedule always seems to have a purpose - get experience for the end of season championships.

Before the other conferences started copying the ACC, it was the only tournament in which the slate was wiped clean and any team could win the Championship.

The games are usually always highly contested and the memories are big.

If you win, you are a champion. I want our team this year to have as many championships as they can get. They earned them.

[jimsumner]

Thank you Olympic for this history. It was something I never knew.

Coach K has always said that he gears his teams to win championships. He'd like to win every game, but that doesn't happen. Our non conference schedule always seems to have a purpose - get experience for the end of season championships.

Before the other conferences started copying the ACC, it was the only tournament in which the slate was wiped clean and any team could win the Championship.

The games are usually always highly contested and the memories are big.

If you win, you are a champion. I want our team this year to have as many championships as they can get. They earned them.

Actually, the Southern Conference Tournament preceded the ACCT and had the same risks. Back in the middle 1960s a couple of the best teams in Davidson history went home in the SoCon Tourny, one on a horrible, game-ending goal-tending call.

[Kedsy]

Actually, the Southern Conference Tournament preceded the ACCT and had the same risks. Back in the middle 1960s a couple of the best teams in Davidson history went home in the SoCon Tourny, one on a horrible, game-ending goal-tending call.

And wasn't Lefty the coach there at that time? Combine that with his misfortunes in the ACCT, and it's no wonder the Lefthander hated the tournament.

[jimsumner]

And wasn't Lefty the coach there at that time? Combine that with his misfortunes in the ACCT, and it's no wonder the Lefthander hated the tournament.

He was indeed.

He was a senior at Duke in 1954, the ACC's first season. Duke finished first in the regular season but lost in the tourny and stayed home. So, add that.

[hurleyfor3]

He was indeed.

He was a senior at Duke in 1954, the ACC's first season. Duke finished first in the regular season but lost in the tourny and stayed home. So, add that.

And his best team ever was probably '74. Poor dude really was snakebit.

[jimsumner]

And his best team ever was probably '74. Poor dude really was snakebit.

Then again, his '73 team got to go because State was on probation. They made it to the East Regional finals but lost to a Providence team that had Ernie D and Marvin Barnes.

So, that was a break that they didn't maximize.

[Olympic Fan]

Just a few more notes:

-- Yes, the Southern Confernce Tournament preceded the ACC Tournament -- but that was when the ACC WAS the Southern Conference. UNC won the first real Southern Conference Tourney in 1922. At the time, the Southern Conference included both the modern ACC and the modern SEC and was so big that the tourney was the only way to distinguish a championship. The league split (on purely geographical terms) in 1932 and the tournament moved to Raleigh -- it's been North Carolina-centric ever since. Again, the new Southern Conference was so big (it grew to 17 teams by 1953) that the tournament was the only way to determine a champion.

-- The NCAA gave conferences automatic bids in 1951, but let each cnference decide how to award that bid. The Southern Conference (with Cameron running the league's basketball and Case dominating on the court) was the only major conference to use a tournament to pick its champion. Interesting enough, the SEC still had a postseason tournament in that era, but picked its champion in the regular season. When the ACC split from the Southern Conference in 1953, the two leagues became the only two to pick champions in a tournament.

-- Lefty Driesell did have back luck in tournaments -- twice at Davidson he had top 10 teams that were beaten in the Southern Conference Tournament. I'm not sure I'd count the '54 Duke team. Yeah, Duke won the regular season that year but it was the first season of ACC play and theu weren't able to set up balanced schedules. Duke was 9-1 ... Wake was 8-4 ... Virginia played just five conference games. The tournament was the only fair way to pick a champion in '54.

-- After that, the ACC almost always played a balanced schedule (with just a few quirky exceptions, such as 1967, when Duke and South Carolina didn't meet because of anger over the Mike Grosso case). The coaches-- except Case -- all agreed that the regular season winner was a truer test of the champion. Still, in the 21 seasons when the tourney champ was the only team to get an NCAA bid, I don't think we lost many NCAA contenders -- Duke in 1965 and South Carolina in 1970 were probably the only real Final Four contenders to lose in the tourney.

I get tired of people blaming Maryland's exclusion in 1974 on the ACC Tournament. Blame the NCAA for allowing just one team per conference. But don't blame the ACC Tournament -- if the ACC had scrapped the tournament that year and gone with the regular season, NC State -- which finished three games ahead of Maryland in the standings -- would have been the representative anyway. The ACC Tournament gave Maryland a second chance they wouldn't have gotten in any other league.

-- Ev Case used to say that baseball is a turnament sport and that the tournament is the proper way to determinea champion. Heck, we use the NCAA Tournament to determine an NCAA champion ... not the regular season. The NFL, the NBA, the NHL, Major League baseball all use postseason tournaments t determine their champion.

Why shouldn't the ACC?

[jimsumner]

Lefty also got an NCAAT break in 1969, when his Davidson team met a UNC team that didn't have injured guard Dick Grubar, who was pretty darn good. Scott won that one for the Heels at the buzzer.

Lefty was 0-4 in regional finals, losing twice at Davidson and twice at Maryland. He had some really good teams after the field expanded, including those early '80s teams with Albert King and Buck Williams and never went all that deep in the tourny.

So, I agree that we can go overboard with the sympathy. The mid-60s Davidson teams for sure. But he had lots of chances to make good on his boast to make Maryland the UCLA of the East and came up short.

Want to give out sympathy points? Try 1970 South Carolina, which went 14-0 in the ACC and lost in the tourny when their best player suffered a severe ankle sprain. Or 1965 Duke, which was knocked out when an NC State non-entity averaging 5 ppg scored 30 in the title game.

Or 1960 UNC and Wake, both 12-2 in the ACC, both of whom lost to 7-7 Duke and Bubas.

[sagegrouse]

Or 1960 UNC and Wake, both 12-2 in the ACC, both of whom lost to 7-7 Duke and Bubas.

Although Duke was an upset winner, that was the year Duke won its first two NCAA tournament games. The weekend of the regionals was Angier Duke Weekend, and I was on campus as a HS senior for the victory over St. Joe's. I remember Jack Mullen dribbling out the clock at the end of the game. I was a basketball fan although not really a Duke fan at the time, but the tournament win was impressive. It must have been the conspiracy of fates that steered me to Duke.

Even if I had forgotten the basketball, I would have remembered the trip because there was a foot of snow on the Duke campus -- first snow I had ever seen.

sagegrouse
'Duke lost to NYU in the regional finals on Saturday night. When I got back to SC, I learned that I would be able to afford college after all'

'Seen a lot of snow since: we've had 285 inches this year in Steamboat'

[Olympic Fan]

Although Duke was an upset winner, that was the year Duke won its first two NCAA tournament games. The weekend of the regionals was Angier Duke Weekend, and I was on campus as a HS senior for the victory over St. Joe's. I remember Jack Mullen dribbling out the clock at the end of the game. I was a basketball fan although not really a Duke fan at the time, but the tournament win was impressive. It must have been the conspiracy of fates that steered me to Duke.

Even if I had forgotten the basketball, I would have remembered the trip because there was a foot of snow on the Duke campus -- first snow I had ever seen.

Hate to point out that your memory is a bit warped -- the Sweet 16 victory over St. Joe's in the Chareltte Coliseum did not end with Jack Mullen dribbling out the clock. It had a bizarre ending.

It was a late LATE game. The first game of the regional semifinals that night was an overtime game between NYU and West Virginia. The Violets, led by forward Thomas "Satch" Sanders edged Jerry West and the Mountaineers. The Duke game didn't start until after 10 p.m.

Duke led most of the way against St. Joe's, but it was always close. With 17 seconds left and Duke up 58-56, guard Johnny Frye went to the FT line to clinch it. But he missed and St. Joe's got the ball with a chance to tie. As they pushed the ball up the court, Duke's Howard Hurt slapped the ball away from behind -- out of bounds.

There were about 11-12 seconds left, but here's where it got crazy. Under today's rules, the clock would stop until the ball was inbounded. But in that era, the clock didn't stop on out of bounds balls unless the ref signalled it -- and the normal procedure was only to stop the clock when the ball bounced into the crowd or was hard to get. In this case, ref Max Macon -- a former pitcher for the Dodgers and Milwaukee Braves -- retrieved the ball quickly and got it to St. Joe's captain, Paul Westhead. Westhead (a future NBA and college coach) was holding the ball over his head, looking to make a perfect throw in when the buzzer sounded.

St. Joe's coach Jack Ramsey went nuts, but Macon defended his decision not to stop the clock.

That win left Duke one win away from the Final Four, but the next night, NYU dominated the game -- Sanders had 22 points and 16 rebounds.

[pfrduke]

I think my favorite threads on this board are the ones that turn into Olympic Fan and Jim Sumner reminiscing. Always get wonderful slices of history that I hadn't known before.

[jv001]

I think my favorite threads on this board are the ones that turn into Olympic Fan and Jim Sumner reminiscing. Always get wonderful slices of history that I hadn't known before.

Mine too because I saw most of the games they talk about. However my memory is not near as good as theirs. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

Hate to point out that your memory is a bit warped -- the Sweet 16 victory over St. Joe's in the Chareltte Coliseum did not end with Jack Mullen dribbling out the clock. It had a bizarre ending.

It was a late LATE game. The first game of the regional semifinals that night was an overtime game between NYU and West Virginia. The Violets, led by forward Thomas "Satch" Sanders edged Jerry West and the Mountaineers. The Duke game didn't start until after 10 p.m.

Duke led most of the way against St. Joe's, but it was always close. With 17 seconds left and Duke up 58-56, guard Johnny Frye went to the FT line to clinch it. But he missed and St. Joe's got the ball with a chance to tie. As they pushed the ball up the court, Duke's Howard Hurt slapped the ball away from behind -- out of bounds.

There were about 11-12 seconds left, but here's where it got crazy. Under today's rules, the clock would stop until the ball was inbounded. But in that era, the clock didn't stop on out of bounds balls unless the ref signalled it -- and the normal procedure was only to stop the clock when the ball bounced into the crowd or was hard to get. In this case, ref Max Macon -- a former pitcher for the Dodgers and Milwaukee Braves -- retrieved the ball quickly and got it to St. Joe's captain, Paul Westhead. Westhead (a future NBA and college coach) was holding the ball over his head, looking to make a perfect throw in when the buzzer sounded.

St. Joe's coach Jack Ramsey went nuts, but Macon defended his decision not to stop the clock.

That win left Duke one win away from the Final Four, but the next night, NYU dominated the game -- Sanders had 22 points and 16 rebounds.

Let me correct my remark. I remember Jack Mullen TRYING to dribble out the clock in the last couple of minutes. -- sage