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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    The screen name would back up your claim, doc.

    I like it when we win the games. Period.
    Yeh, we know he comes on this site because this is where ole roy got the idea of his new starting lineup. Maybe the moderators should ban him, lol. GoDuke!

  2. #22
    3 out of 4 times we won a national championship, we won the ACC tourney too (92, 01, 10).
    "Something in my vicinity is Carolina blue and this offends me." - HPR

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Exiled_Devil View Post
    Well that's great that you think that. But Coach K establishes a culture of competing, and a habit of winning. Duke plays every tournament to win - pre-season, post-season, and national championship. IT's how Duke is.

    Besides the culture of Duke, the ACC is the longest running conference championship. IT's tradition. This idea that the team with the best record in the regular season is a champion is new, and frankly, watered down.
    What do you mean by "watered down"?

    I don't think any coaches deliberately try to lose them. Some may not get upset or sigh in relief if they lose and get some extra rest, but that's different than not trying to win.

    In today's game, with mega conferences, I certainly see the value in an conference tournament championship being the final answer on who the champion is. But what of the conferences that play a full round robin? Why is the regular season champ not given any credit?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Struggling golfer View Post
    ... this is probably just a generalization and I have not researched it, but from just observations when an underdog wins their conference tournament they do not seem to do well in the NCAA tournament.
    Tell that to the 2011 UConn team.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    In today's game, with mega conferences, I certainly see the value in an conference tournament championship being the final answer on who the champion is. But what of the conferences that play a full round robin? Why is the regular season champ not given any credit?
    Bob Knight opposed a conference tourney for years on the theory that what really counts is your consistency in head-to-head match ups over the entire season, not your ability to get hot for a weekend. There is some logic there. But the ACCT is so rich with tradition... Plus, with an unbalanced schedule, the RMK argument doesn't really work.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Another benefit of winning the ACC tournament is higher seeding, which in theory makes our path the NCAAs easier. This year if we win the ACCT we have a very good chance of getting the 1 seed in the east, vs if we lose early we risk falling down a line and getting shipped off someplace else.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by mkirsh View Post
    Another benefit of winning the ACC tournament is higher seeding, which in theory makes our path the NCAAs easier. This year if we win the ACCT we have a very good chance of getting the 1 seed in the east, vs if we lose early we risk falling down a line and getting shipped off someplace else.
    To me, apart from the pride of winning an ACC Championship, the reason for wanting to win the ACCT is simple. Good teams win more games than other teams. It should be no surprise that most teams who make the final 4 are teams that either won or at least played in their conference tournament championship games. You have to win games to get to the conference title game. If your team doesn't win enough games to make it there, there is a much better chance that the team just isn't as good. This isn't always true, of course, as upsets happen every year. However, at the end of day, we want our team to be good enough to beat everyone they play as often as possible. This year, with Ryan coming back from injury and getting reintegrated with the team, I think playing lots of games in the ACCT is even more important. We want these guys to find their groove and reestablish the chemistry they had earlier in the season. We'll still have 5 days to rest after we cut down the nets on Sunday a week and a half from now =).

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    I wonder if age is partly a proxy for the attitudes shown here. My guess is that to old-timers like myself, winning the ACC tourney is a bigger deal. We have been playing this tournament for a much longer period of history than other conferences. Back in the day it determined THE conference champ (no banner for regular season), and the ONLY participant in the NCAA's. And in an 8-team league, even on day 1 there was a lot of excitement. Now day 1 is spent largely to eliminate the bottom-feeders.

    Oh, and get off my lawn.

  9. #29

    acc tournament

    My feeling is that:

    (1) There is no evidence that playing deep into the ACC Tournament impacts NCAA performance -- as others have pointed out, three of Duke's four national titlists won the ACC Tourney and the fourth played in the finals. But it goes beyond that -- 10 of our 15 Final Four teams won the ACC title and three more lost in the ACC finals. Only in 1990 and 1994 did we get to the Final Four without reaching the ACC finals.

    (2) Losing early in the ACC Tournament is not a good thing. Look at the years when we lost in the quarterfinals (or in the case of 2007 in the first round): In 1987, we were upset by State, but made it to the Sweet 16. In 1995 we ddn't get an NCAA bid. In 1996 we lost our NCAA opener. In 1997 we were upset and we lost in the second round of the NCAA (with a top 10 team). In 2007 we lost in the first round to VCU. That's a 3-5 NCAA record after losing in the ACC quarters ... at least we were well rested.

    (2) It IS the official ACC championship. People can argue that the regular season is a better test and they might be right -- but people can argue that the popular vote is a better way to choose a president, but if the loser in the popular vote wins more electoral votes, that sucker is president. Right now, the ACC determines its champion in the tourney, like it or not.

    (3) My biggest goal every year is to win the NCAA title. That trumps everything. But it's not everything. I don't consider every season without a national title a failure. There are degrees of success. To me, the things that make a season great are (in order):

    (1) a national title
    (2) a final four
    (3) an ACC title
    (4) the Sweet 16
    (5) a high national rank in the final poll
    (6) an ACC regular season title

    If winning the ACC title hurt the pursuit of a national title, then I'd agree with Roy -- bag it. But I think the evidence is that it's at worst irrelevant to NCAA performance and probably is an advantage in terms of building postseason momentum.

    Let's go to Greensboro next weekend and win!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Tell that to the 2011 UConn team.
    Oh sure, anyone can find a counter-example if they go back into ancient history...

    I for one have always loved that Duke takes pride in their ACC Tournament competition. Play to win the game, right?

    It builds momentum at the right point in the season, makes your guys more battle-tested, gives K time to learn more about his team in pressure-situations, let's the coaching staff try some new looks, etc. etc. Not to mention, the conference tourneys offer teams their final argument for #1 seeding.

    The ACC Tourney seems even more valuable than usual for our team this year, with the team still adjusting to Kelly's return and trying to get people (Curry, Rasheed) more settled in their adjusted roles. Our team is undefeated with Kelly on the floor this year. Let's extend that through this month too.

    Go Duke!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    What do you mean by "watered down"?
    Well, an unbalanced schedule during the regular season IMO waters down the regular season champion and to a much lesser extent the tourney champion. I am firmly in the camp that fatigue can be an issue but not because of the ACCT.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    I for one have always loved that Duke takes pride in their ACC Tournament competition. Play to win the game, right?
    Do you really think other teams don't *try* to win their conference tournaments? Yea, I know Roy what has said. But when the ball goes up, these are 20 year-old kids, usually playing fierce rivals. Some coaches may play stars a few minutes less per game, but I would submit that that has more to do with playing 3 games in 3 days.

    Most players and coaches made it to high-level CBB by loving and cherishing competition. You don't get good enough to play or coach in a Big 6 conference by picking and choosing which games are more important. Roy and Bob Knight are just loud exceptions, imo, and likely just making excuses for their losses in those tournaments.

    Conference tournaments are awesome. Winning one is even better.
    3 month conference seasons are awesome too, a round-robin is even better.
    Conferences give out trophies for both, most of those trophies are the same size.

    Gun to the head, I would take #2 over #1 any day. Winning on the road is more fun.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    Do you really think other teams don't *try* to win their conference tournaments? Yea, I know Roy what has said. But when the ball goes up, these are 20 year-old kids, usually playing fierce rivals. Some coaches may play stars a few minutes less per game, but I would submit that that has more to do with playing 3 games in 3 days.

    Most players and coaches made it to high-level CBB by loving and cherishing competition. You don't get good enough to play or coach in a Big 6 conference by picking and choosing which games are more important. Roy and Bob Knight are just loud exceptions, imo, and likely just making excuses for their losses in those tournaments.

    Conference tournaments are awesome. Winning one is even better.
    3 month conference seasons are awesome too, a round-robin is even better.
    Conferences give out trophies for both, most of those trophies are the same size.

    Gun to the head, I would take #2 over #1 any day. Winning on the road is more fun.
    Of course they don't try to lose, but the psychological aspect of coaching is mostly about creating and fostering a mindset. When the mindset is "let's win but it's not that big a deal if we lose," I would argue you are at a distinct disadvantage vs. a team with a mindset of "let's win because these are the most important games of our season (so far)."

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Asheville
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    My feeling is that:

    (1) There is no evidence that playing deep into the ACC Tournament impacts NCAA performance -- as others have pointed out, three of Duke's four national titlists won the ACC Tourney and the fourth played in the finals. But it goes beyond that -- 10 of our 15 Final Four teams won the ACC title and three more lost in the ACC finals. Only in 1990 and 1994 did we get to the Final Four without reaching the ACC finals.

    (2) Losing early in the ACC Tournament is not a good thing. Look at the years when we lost in the quarterfinals (or in the case of 2007 in the first round): In 1987, we were upset by State, but made it to the Sweet 16. In 1995 we ddn't get an NCAA bid. In 1996 we lost our NCAA opener. In 1997 we were upset and we lost in the second round of the NCAA (with a top 10 team). In 2007 we lost in the first round to VCU. That's a 3-5 NCAA record after losing in the ACC quarters ... at least we were well rested.

    (2) It IS the official ACC championship. People can argue that the regular season is a better test and they might be right -- but people can argue that the popular vote is a better way to choose a president, but if the loser in the popular vote wins more electoral votes, that sucker is president. Right now, the ACC determines its champion in the tourney, like it or not.

    (3) My biggest goal every year is to win the NCAA title. That trumps everything. But it's not everything. I don't consider every season without a national title a failure. There are degrees of success. To me, the things that make a season great are (in order):

    (1) a national title
    (2) a final four
    (3) an ACC title
    (4) the Sweet 16
    (5) a high national rank in the final poll
    (6) an ACC regular season title
    If winning the ACC title hurt the pursuit of a national title, then I'd agree with Roy -- bag it. But I think the evidence is that it's at worst irrelevant to NCAA performance and probably is an advantage in terms of building postseason momentum.

    Let's go to Greensboro next weekend and win!
    While I regularly agree with OF pretty much down the line, I have to take issue with this one measure of success. I was unaware that the ACC had a regular season "title". The ACC Tournament winner is recognized as the ACC basketball champion for the year. I think rewording (6) to something like "the team with the best ACC regular season record", would be more appropriate.

    I guess this rankles me more than most on this board because I was at Duke when we had a really, really good team that was upset in the 1965 ACC Tournament final. In those days, only the ACC Tournament Champion went on to the NCAA Tournament. After the loss, Vic Bubas was quoted as saying: "that anyone who really lives is going to feel the sting of defeat at some time in his life." I guess that I still feel the sting after that one.

    ricks

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ricks68 View Post
    While I regularly agree with OF pretty much down the line, I have to take issue with this one measure of success. I was unaware that the ACC had a regular season "title". The ACC Tournament winner is recognized as the ACC basketball champion for the year. I think rewording (6) to something like "the team with the best ACC regular season record", would be more appropriate.
    This comes up every year; maybe we should sticky it.

    The ACC has acknowledged a "regular season champion" since 1990. In case of ties, all tied teams can call themselves "regular season champion", regardless of head-to-head or seeding tiebreakers.

    This was most likely done at the behest of unc (ie, Dean) who had been hanging "championship" banners for years when they hadn't won the tournament. It's not clear there was ever an explicit ruling that schools can claim pre-1990 RS championships retroactively, but everyone who can do so seems to.

    Now, I agree 120% that only the tournament champion should be able to call themselves the champion. But the way it is is the way it is. And Duke now hangs banners in Cameron for regular season championships.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ricks68 View Post
    While I regularly agree with OF pretty much down the line, I have to take issue with this one measure of success. I was unaware that the ACC had a regular season "title". The ACC Tournament winner is recognized as the ACC basketball champion for the year. I think rewording (6) to something like "the team with the best ACC regular season record", would be more appropriate.

    I guess this rankles me more than most on this board because I was at Duke when we had a really, really good team that was upset in the 1965 ACC Tournament final. In those days, only the ACC Tournament Champion went on to the NCAA Tournament. After the loss, Vic Bubas was quoted as saying: "that anyone who really lives is going to feel the sting of defeat at some time in his life." I guess that I still feel the sting after that one.

    ricks
    I understand where you are coming from, but the ACC now recognizes the regular season Champion. That Champion just doesn't get an automatic bid.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Asheville
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    This comes up every year; maybe we should sticky it.

    The ACC has acknowledged a "regular season champion" since 1990. In case of ties, all tied teams can call themselves "regular season champion", regardless of head-to-head or seeding tiebreakers.

    This was most likely done at the behest of unc (ie, Dean) who had been hanging "championship" banners for years when they hadn't won the tournament. It's not clear there was ever an explicit ruling that schools can claim pre-1990 RS championships retroactively, but everyone who can do so seems to.

    Now, I agree 120% that only the tournament champion should be able to call themselves the champion. But the way it is is the way it is. And Duke now hangs banners in Cameron for regular season championships.
    I then stand corrected, and my agreement with OF has returned to normalcy again. (I still hated losing that game to state back in '65, however.)

    ricks

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, but the ACC now recognizes the regular season Champion. That Champion just doesn't get an automatic bid.
    Well, the regular season winner receives an award for finishing first in the regular season, but only the winner of the Tournament is the ACC Champion.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Chapel Hill
    Because our winning it means that Carolina did not win it. While I would not trade a Final Four appearance for an ACC championship, I don't see the negative correlation.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    C'mon people. We all know that the reason we lose early in the NCAAT is because Krzyzewski tires the starters out in the regular season by mismanaging fine gradations of minutes. It's 1A! Get with the program!

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

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