MBB: Duke 75, Wake Forest 70 Post-Game Thread

[Kedsy]

One question. Why do we stop going to Mason for about 6-7 minutes in the 2nd half when he's virtually unstoppable? he scored 32 on 15 shots and should've had more.

It looked to me like that was when Wake stopped with the single-coverage strategy and started doubling Mason. They also started packing the lane to keep Mason from catching the ball. That's why our outside shots were a little more open at the end there.

[Reilly]

Oh, and with regard to the double-dribble call...when I played hoops that was called every single time. Lately (meaning the last several years) I've seen numerous players in many different games get away with what I consider blatant double-dribble. Nobody calls it anymore! I was shocked that it was called, but I don't think it was a bad call.

I agree. My sense is that the refs are more generous these days in labeling that first bounce as some sort of "drop" or "gathering of the ball in" than they used to be. In fact, Mason had a similar play last night before the one where he was called for the double dribble.

It would be cool to see ACC refereeing stats over the years ... how many violations of what kinds called over the years ...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree. My sense is that the refs are more generous these days in labeling that first bounce as some sort of "drop" or "gathering of the ball in" than they used to be. In fact, Mason had a similar play last night before the one where he was called for the double dribble.
...

I have noticed Mason's tendency to do this for some time. It is borderline at best, and he did get away with it a few plays before they nailed him. If we get a really picky ref, they could make many of those moves miserable - i.e. at UNC.

Good win, great game from Mason, and I liked what I saw from Marshall. He moves well on defense but seems to get caught out front setting picks, leaving him out of position for rebounds. He will get there.

Go Duke

[roywhite]

I agree. My sense is that the refs are more generous these days in labeling that first bounce as some sort of "drop" or "gathering of the ball in" than they used to be. In fact, Mason had a similar play last night before the one where he was called for the double dribble.

It would be cool to see ACC refereeing stats over the years ... how many violations of what kinds called over the years ...

Agree. The failure to call the double dribble is one of my pet peeves about officiating.

Another is the uncertainty and apparent mistakes on who touched the ball last on a play where the ball goes out of bounds. Just watching on TV, it seemed Duke was on the short end of that situation a few times. Happens quickly; seems to me that the refs should consult each other more frequently to get that determination of possession correct.

[camion]

Agree. The failure to call the double dribble is one of my pet peeves about officiating.

Another is the uncertainty and apparent mistakes on who touched the ball last on a play where the ball goes out of bounds. Just watching on TV, it seemed Duke was on the short end of that situation a few times. Happens quickly; seems to me that the refs should consult each other more frequently to get that determination of possession correct.

Sometimes mistaken, but never in doubt. It's part of being a referee.

When a decision must be made you decide and then proceed. It's even better if the decision happens to be correct. (I learned this in the army.)

[OldSchool]

Marshall's play at the end of the first half was encouraging. He looked more solid than in other recent games, albeit we have such a limited sample it is hard to make firm conclusions. On defense he did a good job of locating both the ball and his man as well as blocking out when a shot went up. While on the offensive side the team is clearly not ready to rely on Marshall posting up, nevertheless if we can sneak him onto the floor for a few more minutes here and there and perhaps even in the second half, it might allow Mason to be more aggressive.

Without Ryan it seems to me we are to a larger degree hostage to our 3-point shooting. (In the Maryland game if Rasheed had hit only a normal 2 of 5 from 3 instead of 5 of 5 in the first half, Maryland would actually have had the lead at the half, all other things being equal.) While people talk about missing Ryan's 3-point shooting, something else we are missing (in addition to his strong defense this year) is his mid-range shooting. When our offense was stymied in the post or at the 3-point line Ryan was finding space in the defense at the elbow or out on the wing for 2-pt shots which he was knocking down with consistency. We don't really have anything to replace that dimension of our offense, other than the guards trying to penetrate and hit a floater.

[jcastranio]

As in substitutions:

Marshall - I thought actually his best game. Seemed a little more under control, aggressive on D, gave us a spark on D when Mason had to lay off. Progress shown. Still is a little lost on offense - but I can almost see some potential.

Josh - For a good portion of this game, Josh was awful. Awful. I am a Josh supporter, and I still say awful. Then, he made two or three key plays down the stretch at a time when I was questioning K's sanity for having him in. On another note, I swear he fouled on every single screen (was called once). Still, he brings a physical presence and that must contribute something. And, in retrospect, we needed his plays at the end. I'll allow the poor play early and attribute it to malaria or something.

Tyler - He also brings a toughness and attitude. I think other teams sense it and he attracts trouble like a conservative in Hollywood. That is probably a good thing. Offensively, when he tries too hard or gets out of his lane - it seems awkward. Still, when Quinn went out briefly near the end, I felt good that Tyler was out there handling the ball. Solid, but not spectacular contribution.

Alex - this one puzzled me. I know I am just a fan, but I have been watching basketball my whole life. Alex looked energetic, involved, and effective in the first half. Then, even with foul difficulty, he didn't play in the second. I am so obsessed with it, i actually focus just on him while he is in there, just to see if he is somehow lost or incompetent. He doesn't appear to be. I will say, on offense, the team seems to completely ignore him. I don't know if he doesn't go to the right spot or if there is a vast wing player conspiracy. It is like on offense, he has a cloaking device on and is invisible to his fellow team members. So - I thought a good effort and good minutes - just don't know why not more. It is like the team isn't totally comfortable with him yet.

[94duke]

As in substitutions:

Marshall - I thought actually his best game. Seemed a little more under control, aggressive on D, gave us a spark on D when Mason had to lay off. Progress shown. Still is a little lost on offense - but I can almost see some potential.

Josh - For a good portion of this game, Josh was awful. Awful. I am a Josh supporter, and I still say awful. Then, he made two or three key plays down the stretch at a time when I was questioning K's sanity for having him in. On another note, I swear he fouled on every single screen (was called once). Still, he brings a physical presence and that must contribute something. And, in retrospect, we needed his plays at the end. I'll allow the poor play early and attribute it to malaria or something.

Tyler - He also brings a toughness and attitude. I think other teams sense it and he attracts trouble like a conservative in Hollywood. That is probably a good thing. Offensively, when he tries too hard or gets out of his lane - it seems awkward. Still, when Quinn went out briefly near the end, I felt good that Tyler was out there handling the ball. Solid, but not spectacular contribution.

Alex - this one puzzled me. I know I am just a fan, but I have been watching basketball my whole life. Alex looked energetic, involved, and effective in the first half. Then, even with foul difficulty, he didn't play in the second. I am so obsessed with it, i actually focus just on him while he is in there, just to see if he is somehow lost or incompetent. He doesn't appear to be. I will say, on offense, the team seems to completely ignore him. I don't know if he doesn't go to the right spot or if there is a vast wing player conspiracy. It is like on offense, he has a cloaking device on and is invisible to his fellow team members. So - I thought a good effort and good minutes - just don't know why not more. It is like the team isn't totally comfortable with him yet.

Here are my thoughts on Alex's playing time. His defense more than his offense is preventing more playing time. He doesn't defend against penetration particularly well, and here is why. His feet are a little slow when defending a ball handler on the perimeter. His help-D is pretty good, and he recovers to challenge shooters well. But when he tries to defend a ball handler on the perimeter, he gets beat. He is either slow to react to a ball handler's first step, or his feet are too slow to get in front of the dribbler.

[budwom]

Yes, it was very much the same way with Zoubek (and many other mature/seasoned big men)...try to disrupt the shot if possible, but don't try to block everything or you'll usually either foul or give up the offensive rebound. Mason has very good ups and can probably average an extra block or two per game if he tried swatting everything that came his way (like Nerlens Noel tries to do). But Mason would also get in more frequent foul trouble, and our offense and defense would be worse off over the course of the game with him on the bench. I am sure Coach K has him calibrated pretty much the way he wants him in that respect.

Of course, it can be frustrating sometimes to see him "give up" a short gimme shot or layup when I would like to see him just send it back, but I am also glad to see that Mason's minutes per foul (the time it takes to accumulate one foul) has increased steadily over the course of his career from 6.71 as a freshman, to 9.85 as a sophomore, to 11.36 as a junior, to 17.15 as a senior.

In fact in today's N&O article Mason conceded the coaches want him to play better defense when he's in foul trouble.

[Matches]

Here are my thoughts on Alex's playing time. His defense more than his offense is preventing more playing time. He doesn't defend against penetration particularly well, and here is why. His feet are a little slow when defending a ball handler on the perimeter. His help-D is pretty good, and he recovers to challenge shooters well. But when he tries to defend a ball handler on the perimeter, he gets beat. He is either slow to react to a ball handler's first step, or his feet are too slow to get in front of the dribbler.

Yea that's been my take too. Even in the Miami game when he was scoring effectively, I thought he looked lost on defense. Of course, the whole team looked lost on D in the Miami game, but unfortunately that's been a pattern with Murph. Hard to say if he's having trouble getting his sea legs in limited PT, or if he's getting limited PT because he's not defending well.

[Kedsy]

Marshall - I thought actually his best game. Seemed a little more under control, aggressive on D, gave us a spark on D when Mason had to lay off. Progress shown. Still is a little lost on offense - but I can almost see some potential.

To me, it looks like Marshall has to stop and think on offense before he can figure out where he's supposed to be. This leads to having less-than-great position on his post-ups and being really late on his ball screens. I'm afraid he has a lot of work to do before he's a competent high major big man on offense, but I'm confident he'll get there eventually.

On defense he has a similar problem, especially with his hedges, but I thought the Wake game was a big improvement over his brief appearance against Maryland. Baby steps and all that.

Josh - For a good portion of this game, Josh was awful. Awful. I am a Josh supporter, and I still say awful. Then, he made two or three key plays down the stretch at a time when I was questioning K's sanity for having him in. On another note, I swear he fouled on every single screen (was called once). Still, he brings a physical presence and that must contribute something. And, in retrospect, we needed his plays at the end. I'll allow the poor play early and attribute it to malaria or something.

I agree with this. For most of the game Josh was late on his defensive assignments and moving on his screens. And then he made what seemed to me to be the play of the game with that amazing save after the Mason block. Without that play, it's a different game. Kudos to him for playing through his malaise and still hustling to the very end.

Alex - this one puzzled me. I know I am just a fan, but I have been watching basketball my whole life. Alex looked energetic, involved, and effective in the first half. Then, even with foul difficulty, he didn't play in the second. I am so obsessed with it, i actually focus just on him while he is in there, just to see if he is somehow lost or incompetent. He doesn't appear to be. I will say, on offense, the team seems to completely ignore him. I don't know if he doesn't go to the right spot or if there is a vast wing player conspiracy. It is like on offense, he has a cloaking device on and is invisible to his fellow team members. So - I thought a good effort and good minutes - just don't know why not more. It is like the team isn't totally comfortable with him yet.

To me, Alex's cuts and screens don't seem as sharp as they could be. He is energetic, but a lot of that energy appears to be wasted on inefficient movement. And on defense, as others have noted, he sometimes loses where he's supposed to be. Like Marshall, he should get there eventually.

I would note that against Wake almost all of Alex's minutes came at the 4, rather than on the wing (where almost all his minutes came in previous games). I think I liked that -- he didn't appear to be outsized (at least against Wake) and for a PF he's relatively quick while on the wing his quickness is adequate but not outstanding.

[Kedsy]

Had they doubled Mason all night they probably would've lost the game by 10 or 15.

It was interesting how confident Mason looked and how smoothly he executed his inside moves while in single coverage. Just like the "old" Mason of November and early December. He even made his free throws. Then, when Wake started doubling and crowding him more, late in the game, things seemed more difficult for him. So perhaps he hasn't regressed or hit a wall or any of the things people have been saying, it's just a matter of how he's defended.

Once again it shows how much we miss Ryan. I don't think it was coincidence that the best roll of Ryan's career came just when opponents started doubling Mason in late December and early January.

[Wander]

It looked to me like that was when Wake stopped with the single-coverage strategy and started doubling Mason. They also started packing the lane to keep Mason from catching the ball. That's why our outside shots were a little more open at the end there.

Agreed, I was going to point out the same thing. IIRC you can see it most obviously in the play that everyone here is talking about when Mason was called for the double dribble. Plumlee had an awesome game so the following statement isn't meant to take anything away from him, but for the first 75% of the game he faced a much easier defense to score against than in the past few ACC games. I am not sure whether Wake switching their defense around the ~10 min mark of the second half was done as sort of a strategic chess type thing to confuse us or if Wake was just tired of seeing Mason score 30 points, but they definitely changed the defense sometime around there.

[Saratoga2]

To me, it looks like Marshall has to stop and think on offense before he can figure out where he's supposed to be. This leads to having less-than-great position on his post-ups and being really late on his ball screens. I'm afraid he has a lot of work to do before he's a competent high major big man on offense, but I'm confident he'll get there eventually.

On defense he has a similar problem, especially with his hedges, but I thought the Wake game was a big improvement over his brief appearance against Maryland. Baby steps and all that.



I agree with this. For most of the game Josh was late on his defensive assignments and moving on his screens. And then he made what seemed to me to be the play of the game with that amazing save after the Mason block. Without that play, it's a different game. Kudos to him for playing through his malaise and still hustling to the very end.



To me, Alex's cuts and screens don't seem as sharp as they could be. He is energetic, but a lot of that energy appears to be wasted on inefficient movement. And on defense, as others have noted, he sometimes loses where he's supposed to be. Like Marshall, he should get there eventually.

I would note that against Wake almost all of Alex's minutes came at the 4, rather than on the wing (where almost all his minutes came in previous games). I think I liked that -- he didn't appear to be outsized (at least against Wake) and for a PF he's relatively quick while on the wing his quickness is adequate but not outstanding.

Many of us now believe Mason is backing off on defense and allowing easy buckets because he is fearful of fouling, especially early in the game. Clearly we need him in the game so there is logic in what appears to be happening. Other coaches aren't missing this and will push to score inside and through penetration. What can be done? My believe is that we have at least 3 players who could take the defensive load along with whatever fouls might occur. Marshall clearly has potential and in my opinion, should be given more time in that role. Amile also has a lot of positives except he can get into foul trouble easily, but at least have scoring, rebounding and shot blocking potential. Josh in my opinion was also not effective against Wake until the very end. He has the bulk, strength and experience but is undersized and is not that athletic. Trying all three of these in tandem and encouraging them to play with energy might help us avoid giving away so many easy buckets.

Can Alex play PF? As the writer points out he has height and quickness but it might be too new for him to contribute. If that is a position that he can play, then we can use 5 players for 2 positions with Mason getting the majority of minutes at his position. Still no word on Ryan. When and if he returns, the team can easily readapt to his insertion.

[CajunDevil]

Alex's playing time is perplexing. His defense is very active - quick hands, good feet, good lateral quickness. When he's in the game he makes plays. He challenged McKie at the rim on a break last night - Alex got the foul but showed toughness. Alex also forced Wake into a TO by his overplay. His D was solid.

On the offensive end, Alex is a very good finisher with good hands and live legs. When he dives to the rim he has often been the recipient of quick passes for nifty reverse layups. However, last night it seemed like he had on the cloak of invisibility the previous poster mentioned. I can understand the cloak for Marshall in the post... but not Alex. However, on one drive Alex drove directly into a double team at the elbow and lost the ball, fortuitously to Rasheed. So, then there's that.

My personal take is that Alex just needs more PT to allow the game to slow a bit. I would like Alex to play either the 4 - where he has the potential to stretch the D in a Kelly-like fashion and free up space for Mason - or the 3 when Curry or Rasheed takes a breather, with Amile/Hairston at the 4. Alex seems like a bigger/sturdier Singler with a good bit less polish on his game at this point than Singler had. I can't wait to see him with longer stretches of playing time to see if he can get into a rhythm. Hopefully, that comes sooner rather than later.

[tbyers11]

In fact in today's N&O article Mason conceded the coaches want him to play better defense when he's in foul trouble.

Mason does have to be cautious when challenging his man's post moves or going for the block on help defense when he is in foul trouble. Wake probably got a couple baskets because he didn't risk fouling.

However I think his quote means the coaching staff wants him to play smarter D besides not challenging shots when in foul trouble. Wake got at least 4 baskets when Mason had very poor decision making on defense. Twice he went for the steal on an entry pass to Thomas, didn't get it and couldn't go for the blocked shot attempt because of his foul situation. He is generally pretty good on selective gambling on trying to steal the entry pass but he needs to just play solid position D when he is foul trouble. He also badly failed to close out on a big on the perimeter twice (Rountree (1st half) led to a dunk and Cavanaugh (2nd half) led to 3 point play and 4th foul on Mason). I know that Mason doesn't typically close out on shooters but both of these plays he looked he really had a very half-hearted close out.

Overall, Mason, particularly offensively, had a great game. He also came up with several big defensive plays late. That being said I think the coaches will have plenty of teaching moments when they review his D on film.

[CDu]

To me, it looks like Marshall has to stop and think on offense before he can figure out where he's supposed to be. This leads to having less-than-great position on his post-ups and being really late on his ball screens. I'm afraid he has a lot of work to do before he's a competent high major big man on offense, but I'm confident he'll get there eventually.

I noticed this as well. There were a couple of plays in which Cook looked - for just a moment - exasperated with Marshall for not being in the right spot for a screen. In each case it was a very quick reaction, and then Cook just changed things up from there and the play went on. So if you weren't looking, you wouldn't have noticed it.

On defense he has a similar problem, especially with his hedges, but I thought the Wake game was a big improvement over his brief appearance against Maryland. Baby steps and all that.

Yeah, defensively I thought he did a fine job tonight. Nothing special, but nothing bad (which is, at this point, all we're going to ask of him defensively).

I agree with this. For most of the game Josh was late on his defensive assignments and moving on his screens. And then he made what seemed to me to be the play of the game with that amazing save after the Mason block. Without that play, it's a different game. Kudos to him for playing through his malaise and still hustling to the very end.

Like Marshall, one thing Hairston won't get cheated on is effort. He doesn't have great hands and has limited skill (or confidence) in his offense, but he gives it his all. In a 5-10 mpg role, you just have to hope that the hustle plays outnumber/outweigh the miscues with Hairston.

I would note that against Wake almost all of Alex's minutes came at the 4, rather than on the wing (where almost all his minutes came in previous games). I think I liked that -- he didn't appear to be outsized (at least against Wake) and for a PF he's relatively quick while on the wing his quickness is adequate but not outstanding.

Yeah, Murphy first entered the game for Jefferson, after Hairston had already subbed in (unsuccessfully) for Jefferson. It should be noted that Wake's PF are Cavanaugh (a 6'9" guy who prefers to play on the perimeter), Adala Moto (6'6", 225), and at times McKie (6'7", 220). Cavanaugh and Adala Moto are not overly-skilled ballhandlers, and neither was likely to look for a post-up. So it was a good matchup for Murphy at PF.

[CDu]

I thought the over and back rule was only the location of the ball not the player. I didn't see the ball go back over the line, so I thought it was a bad call.

No. Once possession of the ball has been established in the frontcourt (either by dribbling with the ball and both feet in the frontcourt or by picking up the dribble with both feet in the frontcourt or by passing to someone with both feet in the frontcourt), a backcourt violation occurs when either the ball or any body part of a player possessing the ball touch the floor in the backcourt (unless the ball was last touched in the frontcourt by a defender).

The only question as to whether that was a backcourt violation or not was whether:
a. Jefferson possessed the ball in the frontcourt after Wake tipped it (which he did); and
b. Jefferson touched the midcourt line with the ball (it was very close and hard to tell from the TV view, but the official was right there).

[nocilla]

Agree. The failure to call the double dribble is one of my pet peeves about officiating.

Another is the uncertainty and apparent mistakes on who touched the ball last on a play where the ball goes out of bounds. Just watching on TV, it seemed Duke was on the short end of that situation a few times. Happens quickly; seems to me that the refs should consult each other more frequently to get that determination of possession correct.

I have another question about a call that was made. There was a play I think in the first half where a Wake defender blocked a shot and the ball bounced off the bottom of the backboard and went out of bounds. I assumed the ball would remain with Duke but it was awarded to Wake. Did I miss a Duke player touching the ball after the block? Even when they showed a replay I didn't see a Duke player anywhere near the ball. Or is there a rule about the ball hitting the bottom of the backboard? Or maybe they ruled that the Wake defender never actually touched the ball. The announcers called it a block and it looked like one, but I guess it is possible that he didn't actually touch it. Does anyone remember that play and know what the call was?

[IBleedBlue]

I believe this wake team is going to be a handful in the next few years. They have a big man in the middle who is already producing at a clip of ~15ppg and he is a freshman. And a solid backup for him is Tyler Cavanuagh, also a freshman. And guards are learning under McKie and Harris. They will be a top tier team starting next year in the ACC.
I wonder how Marshall would measure up against Devin Thomas.