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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by pamtar View Post
    I have two officiating question. First, the double-dribble call on Mason. Are you not allowed to stop the ball by bouncing it off the floor without taking possession? Second, the over-and-back call where Mason chased down a rebound and had his pass deflected to the backcourt where Amile caught it with a foot on the line. If the ball is deflected, even off a pass, does that not give us full court? Thanks in advance for any help provided. I could be completely wrong on both of these but just wanted to clarify.

    Otherwise, good road win. It's gotta be hard taking every team's best shot. Way to tough it out and R.K. get well soon...
    1) not positive...i think it may be a judgement call
    2) all that matters is the last person who touched it, so despite it being tipped, amile was the last person to touch it before the ball went into the backcourt (implied by his standing on the midcourt line)
    1200. DDMF.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    Pretty much agree with almost all of the comments so far. But I really thought Seth was the person the rest of the guys were looking for to make something happen at less than 4 minutes and the game tied. He came through, and I thought inspird the others. Yes MP2 had a great box score night, but I find myself about as frustrated as I've ever been at a Devil who just scored 29 points... Just weak D at several key points in the second half, getting beat by (much) lesser players. More than a couple missed "help D" opportunities for him too. The block at the very end was nice though. But he sure went silent down the stretch - I think G-man said with a minute to go that he hadn't scored since the 12-min mark??

    Several guys made key plays in the final minute. Gritty, tough win. I don't know how many of these I can take though!!
    He had 32! And 9 boards!

    I still think he lays off on D to avoid foul trouble. Unfortunately tonight he picked up two on the offensive end and then a real questionable one late that made him even less aggressive in D.

    Huge props for two blocks in crunch time when he had four fouls.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    Pretty much agree with almost all of the comments so far. But I really thought Seth was the person the rest of the guys were looking for to make something happen at less than 4 minutes and the game tied. He came through, and I thought inspird the others. Yes MP2 had a great box score night, but I find myself about as frustrated as I've ever been at a Devil who just scored 29 points... Just weak D at several key points in the second half, getting beat by (much) lesser players. More than a couple missed "help D" opportunities for him too. The block at the very end was nice though. But he sure went silent down the stretch - I think G-man said with a minute to go that he hadn't scored since the 12-min mark??
    Several guys made key plays in the final minute. Gritty, tough win. I don't know how many of these I can take though!!
    This happens when the guards stop looking for your best and only big down low. If they had kept feeding Mason, he would have scored 40points. And it looks like Mason is not playing tight man to man because we don't have our other 6'11 big guy. I don't get all the Mason bashing lately. Man he had a great game. GoDuke!

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    1) not positive...i think it may be a judgement call
    2) all that matters is the last person who touched it, so despite it being tipped, amile was the last person to touch it before the ball went into the backcourt (implied by his standing on the midcourt line)
    I didn't see #1 with my terrible feed and #2 wasn't very clear but you are correct. It appeared that Amile took one step in the back court and his second step was on the stripe which would have established possession in the front court. But even if his first step was on the line, he was technically in the front court when he jumped b/c both of his feet were in the front court and the ball was also in the front court so therefore, it was the correct call (assuming he was actually on the line when it is impossible to tell on some of these courts with their images on the court).

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Carolina Beach

    Separation

    Down the stretch we could not hit that big shot to give us separation. Curry back to back 3 misses on one possession..(i would have bet the house on the second one and be homeless now) and Rasheed missed a big one..
    i think any of those shots would have give us a six point lead and a chance to set the defense. On the other hand I thought the D tightened up down the stretch.

    I also thought the beginning of the half we had a chance to gain a working margin and we blew our opportunities after the 6-0 run to begin the half..

    So whew would be my word of the night.Thank God Mason was good at the free throw line.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    I didn't see #1 with my terrible feed and #2 wasn't very clear but you are correct. It appeared that Amile took one step in the back court and his second step was on the stripe which would have established possession in the front court. But even if his first step was on the line, he was technically in the front court when he jumped b/c both of his feet were in the front court and the ball was also in the front court so therefore, it was the correct call (assuming he was actually on the line when it is impossible to tell on some of these courts with their images on the court).
    Yea but he got rid of the ball before coming down in the back court. His foot MIGHT have touched the line, but it was close...

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    Pretty much agree with almost all of the comments so far. But I really thought Seth was the person the rest of the guys were looking for to make something happen at less than 4 minutes and the game tied. He came through, and I thought inspired the others. Yes MP2 had a great box score night, but I find myself about as frustrated as I've ever been at a Devil who just scored 29 points... He plain out simply played just weak D at several key points in the second half, getting beat by (much) lesser players. More than a couple missed "help D" opportunities for him too. The block at the very end was nice though. But he sure went silent down the stretch - I think G-man said with a minute to go that he hadn't scored since the 12-min mark??

    Several guys made key plays in the final minute. Gritty, tough win. I don't know how many of these I can take though!!
    Games on the road will be like this- get ready

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by pamtar View Post
    I have two officiating question. First, the double-dribble call on Mason. Are you not allowed to stop the ball by bouncing it off the floor without taking possession? Second, the over-and-back call where Mason chased down a rebound and had his pass deflected to the backcourt where Amile caught it with a foot on the line. If the ball is deflected, even off a pass, does that not give us full court? Thanks in advance for any help provided. I could be completely wrong on both of these but just wanted to clarify.

    Otherwise, good road win. It's gotta be hard taking every team's best shot. Way to tough it out and R.K. get well soon...
    1. On the double-dribble, it's up to the official's discretion. If he feels that Mason controlled the pass and then dribbled before picking it up, it's a double-dribble. If he didn't feel that Mason had possession, it's not.

    2. If the ball is deflected by the defender, we can go back into the backcourt to get it. Where the over-the-back came into play is that Jefferson actually caught it in the frontcourt and then stepped on the line. Had he established himself in the backcourt and then caught the ball, it would probably have been fine.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    Mason did play some matador defense after his third foul, but in fairness, we can't afford to have him on the bench. Had he played aggressive defense and fouled out, this game is a loss. Sometimes other guys have to step up and help out. He got us to the last four minutes where everyone's defense improved. What we saw tonight is that there is no second "big" option on this team with Ryan out.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    Games on the road will be like this- get ready
    At the risk of sounding like Uncle Drew ... back in the day, every game in the ACC was a war. This is the way it should be.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Yea but he got rid of the ball before coming down in the back court. His foot MIGHT have touched the line, but it was close...
    Well the major point of the OP was that why is it back court if it was deflected and Amile was in the air. So the answer to that question is that, the deflection doesn't change the position of the ball (still in the front court). The only time the deflection matters is if it results in the ball going into the back court. And since Amile never established position in the back court, he was in the front court, hence the back court. Now we can argue about whether he touched the line or was in the back court but assuming he did, it was the right call and both refs did call it. Hoping ESPN3 puts up a replay so I can look at it again though.

  12. #32

    No backup for Mason

    What we saw tonight is that Duke doesn't have an effective backup for Mason. Amile might take that role but he is still showing a propensity to foul. As a result, Mason is not really playing defense the way one might expect. To me he seems like the first priority is to stay in the game, with defense of secondary importance. Marshall seems very limited at this point in time and Josh hasn't been very effective. So until Ryan comes back we have no other multi-talented big man who can stay in the game.

    Mason's line was kind of interesting with 32 points on efficient shooting (including from the foul line), but at least 7 turnovers.

    While Rasheed was playing hard, something has gotten to him as far as scoring. Is it the road game crowd? Is he just being guarded better? Hard to say, but we need more offense from him to be successful. Tough 3 point shooting night for our guards.

    I read some criticism of Quinn but I thought he remained solid throughout the game.

    Anyone care to speculate why Alex wasn't used more in the game?

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Well the major point of the OP was that why is it back court if it was deflected and Amile was in the air. So the answer to that question is that, the deflection doesn't change the position of the ball (still in the front court). The only time the deflection matters is if it results in the ball going into the back court. And since Amile never established position in the back court, he was in the front court, hence the back court. Now we can argue about whether he touched the line or was in the back court but assuming he did, it was the right call and both refs did call it. Hoping ESPN3 puts up a replay so I can look at it again though.
    I rewound it on DVR at the time and it still looked iffy. Def tough to make on the fly.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by vick View Post
    While I'm not going to claim this game was a thing of beauty, the negativity in the in-game thread was kind of over the top. I believe Wake Forest has scored 0.95 points per possession in ACC play to date if my calculations are right. In this game we gave up...1.01. Obviously you want to do better, but it was hardly the total train wreck that it was being made out to be. Given that Mason obviously has to play to avoid fouls--I believe three of his four fouls were on the offensive end, and unlike some others I think those were fair calls, though the fourth one was pretty weak I thought--and our best perimeter defender, Sulaimon, was saddled with foul trouble in the first half, I don't think it was horrible. It was just...average.
    Amen! I'm always amazed at howsome posters have to fly to their keyboards to make some unanalytical negative comment. some seemed unaware that you cant risk fouling out when you are your teams most important player...This was an ACC road win against an improving geeked up team and Duke did not play that badly. we had better ball movement and with Bzdks or however you spell it bad decision to single team Mason, Mason did take advantage.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Great game by Mason and Curry. Seniors doing what seniors should do: lead.

    Tough night for the younger guys and role players. Glad we could fight through a tough game and get the win. Hopefully this builds some confidence.

    Now that we have the goose egg out of the road win column, let's make it a crooked number this weekend!

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    While Rasheed was playing hard, something has gotten to him as far as scoring. Is it the road game crowd? Is he just being guarded better? Hard to say, but we need more offense from him to be successful. Tough 3 point shooting night for our guards.
    It looked to me like Sheed was expending a lot of energy keeping McKie bottled up.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Great game by Mason and Curry. Seniors doing what seniors should do: lead.

    Tough night for the younger guys and role players. Glad we could fight through a tough game and get the win. Hopefully this builds some confidence.

    Now that we have the goose egg out of the road win column, let's make it a crooked number this weekend!
    This is one way in which getting RK back would be huge. Our two best players on the road...not surprisingly...our seniors. Against Miami, no one had a good game. Against NCSU, Mason had 15 and 11 and Seth had 22 points (Quinn also had a very good game). When you get on the road, against a jacked up opponent, with a crowd that's ready to scream their lungs out every time the home team surges, having senior leaders are huge. We can rely on Seth and Mase to play well home or away, while our younger guys are naturally going to perform better on their own court with their fans behind them. Having Kelly back to give us that 3rd senior in the game providing balance, experience, maturity, will be huge.

    We're a good team without Ryan. With him, we're potentially great.

    Until we get him back, though, we've got another tough road game ahead. FSU isn't what they were last year, but they'll be there, playing hard, and their crowd will be amped up.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    Pretty much agree with almost all of the comments so far. But I really thought Seth was the person the rest of the guys were looking for to make something happen at less than 4 minutes and the game tied. He came through, and I thought inspired the others. Yes MP2 had a great box score night, but I find myself about as frustrated as I've ever been at a Devil who just scored 29 points... He plain out simply played just weak D at several key points in the second half, getting beat by (much) lesser players. More than a couple missed "help D" opportunities for him too. The block at the very end was nice though. But he sure went silent down the stretch - I think G-man said with a minute to go that he hadn't scored since the 12-min mark??

    Several guys made key plays in the final minute. Gritty, tough win. I don't know how many of these I can take though!!
    Sorry BDBD, but you are way off base here. By a long shot. I addressed the same topic in your post in the MOTM match. This was not one of Seth's best games, but it was surely one of Mason's best. 32 points on 15 shot attempts. The only thing that kept him from getting 40 was his teammates not making sure he got 20 shot attempts. Mason's defense is by design. Even before we lost Ryan, Mason had to manage his fouls such that he could play 35+ mpg. W/O Ryan, it has gotten even worse. He basically has to go 38-40 mpg every game. And as consistently inconsistent as ACC refs are on interior foul calls (Mason's 4th being Exhibit A), that means insuring you avoid contact like the plague. Plus without Ryan, Mason is the only rim protector we have. When Amile or Josh get beat and Mason slides over, he has to challenge without the appearance of a foul, let alone making contact to get it to 50/50. The guy is on an island by himself without his former running mate. Our defense has taken a huge hit w/o Ryan. That is not the fault of Mason. With the game on the line he blocked two shots, altered two others, and helped secure the win.

    We finally got the road monkey off our back despite our underclassmen all having sub par games. Team defense was not real good either, though they did step it up in the last 3 minutes.

    As I suspected, it was a hard fought ACC Road game, where the upperclassmen made enough plays for us to sneak out of there with a win. Wake is a much improving team with some good young talent around the two solid veterans. Much better than that BC team I watched last night.

    We won a game we could have easily lost, to help keep us afloat until Ryan returns. We are just a very different team without Ryan. Lots of growing to do. Tonight was another step.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Anyone notice K went with a 4 guard lineup somewhere around the 8 minute mark or so? That lineup actually had some stops on defense... I think.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Well the major point of the OP was that why is it back court if it was deflected and Amile was in the air. So the answer to that question is that, the deflection doesn't change the position of the ball (still in the front court). The only time the deflection matters is if it results in the ball going into the back court. And since Amile never established position in the back court, he was in the front court, hence the back court. Now we can argue about whether he touched the line or was in the back court but assuming he did, it was the right call and both refs did call it. Hoping ESPN3 puts up a replay so I can look at it again though.
    In real time, i thought it was a backcourt, but as you point out there are a few things that would have avoided it (not that any of these things happen, but just to list them)

    1) if either of amile's feet were touching the line at the time when he caught the deflected ball, it is not a violation (and he could then dribble all the way to the other end line should he choose)
    2) if amile had caught the ball in the air and gotten rid of it before landing on the line, it is not a violation
    3) if the ball had first bounced in the backcourt and amile started dribbling it at that time even if his feet were still in the frontcourt, he could then still put a foot on the line, as my understanding is that all 3 of the ball and your 2 feet must be in the front court before there can be a violation
    1200. DDMF.

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