View Poll Results: Who Would You Elect

Voters
41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Jeff Bagwell

    21 51.22%
  • Craig Biggio

    25 60.98%
  • Barry Bonds

    21 51.22%
  • Roger Clemens

    19 46.34%
  • Edgar Martinez

    6 14.63%
  • Mark McGwire

    12 29.27%
  • Jack Morris

    6 14.63%
  • Dale Murphy

    10 24.39%
  • Mike Piazza

    25 60.98%
  • Tim Raines

    15 36.59%
  • Curt Schilling

    14 34.15%
  • Sammy Sosa

    5 12.20%
  • Alan Trammell

    8 19.51%
  • David Wells

    4 9.76%
  • Bernie Williams

    3 7.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 21 to 40 of 66
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Obviously mlb had no testing and did little (or nothing) to enforce the rule until pretty recently. Given the lack of enforcement, I imagine players didn't spend a lot of time thinking about the policy, but to me at least, it strains credulity to think that these guys didn't know that injecting themselves with something they couldn't legally acquire was against league rules. I also think your analogy misses the mark quite a bit, since the merits of someone to serve as President aren't particularly enhanced by having ever broken the speed limit or gotten high (at least in most people's eyes). The merits of someone's candidacy for the Hall of Fame are pretty significantly impacted by having used PED's, although at least with some of the guys we're talking about, I think absent any PED's they'd have had HOF careers.

    At any rate, I think I'd vote purely based on a player's performance, and give no regard to any known or suspected PED use. But I don't think we should gloss over the fact that it was against the rules, they almost surely knew it was against the rules, and it has, or can have, an impact on performance that makes it a much more significant offense than skirting the speed limit.
    I see your points, and I respectfully choose to still vote for the users and suspected users. We probably won't ever get all the facts out, and as a fan, I couldn't describe the 90s without mentioning all of the guys I voted for here in the poll. I suppose I just don't care enough that guys were using because I know that baseball history has been littered with 'cheaters' who we still celebrate (I feel like a hypocrite because I'm the first to jump on guys like Calipari, but I do my best to separate college and pro sports).

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    6 miles from Heaven, 10 miles from Hell
    I voted for Bonds and Clemens. Are you going to retroactively remove the 60s and 70s players that used uppers/greenies, which were as illegal as steroids? I considered each candidate in his time period, and for better or worse, steroids is a factor for the 90s players.

    Bagwell and Piazza, both who are caught up in the steroid issue without proof, are also no brainers in my mind.

    Biggio and Martinez are two I also believe are excellent HOF candidates, well above the average member.

    Lastly, the underrated Raines and Trammell. Tim Raines was a significantly better baseball player than Andre Dawson, but didn't do any single item (other than stolen bases) like Dawson's home runs and throwing assists. Raines did a lot more overall, starting with getting on base and scoring runs. Larkin got in last year, not sure that he's better than Trammell, and Barry's a solid HOFer.

    I didn't vote for McGwire or Sosa because I'm not convinced that they are deserving from a statistical viewpoint, not because of the steroids.

  3. #23

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    I hate Tommy Lasorda (punches picture)

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    I hate Tommy Lasorda (punches picture)
    I have a deadline on my series on off track betting in the Himalayas. It's a smaller story, but I know you've been following it.
    Singler is IRON

    I STILL GOT IT! -- Ryan Kelly, March 2, 2013

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. synellinden View Post
    I have a deadline on my series on off track betting in the Himalayas. It's a smaller story, but I know you've been following it.
    Pederast.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Mr. Ultra Slim-Fast was misquoted. What he said was the HOF shouldn't be open to the most excessive eaters.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    Interesting to note that so far no one is getting in the HOF this year... at least according to our ballot. Lots of folks in the 40-60% range, but no one reaches the magical 75% threshold.

    -Jason "by the way, next year, the 2014 HOF class, should include Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, and Tony LaRussa" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  9. #29

    Hall of Fame

    Add recently elected Hall of Famer Barry Larkin -- who played during the steroid era -- to the chorus of voices who do not think the PED cheaters should get into the Hall of Fame:

    http://www.thenews-messenger.com/vie...sey=nav%7Chead

    Jason, while you might be right that nobody will be elected by the BWA this year (too bad, I was hoping that Tim Raines would get it in a year with no obvious candidates, other than the cheaters), the veteran's committee (or whatever they arecalling it this year) will still meet and I'd be surprised if they didn't pick somebody.

    Any chance for Marvin Miller to finally earn the election he so richly deserves?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    6 miles from Heaven, 10 miles from Hell
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Add recently elected Hall of Famer Barry Larkin -- who played during the steroid era -- to the chorus of voices who do not think the PED cheaters should get into the Hall of Fame:

    http://www.thenews-messenger.com/vie...sey=nav%7Chead

    Jason, while you might be right that nobody will be elected by the BWA this year (too bad, I was hoping that Tim Raines would get it in a year with no obvious candidates, other than the cheaters), the veteran's committee (or whatever they arecalling it this year) will still meet and I'd be surprised if they didn't pick somebody.

    Any chance for Marvin Miller to finally earn the election he so richly deserves?
    The pre-integration committee met this week, inducted three. A Yankee owner, the umpire who called Merkle out, and a player from the 1870s. Rupert, O'Day and White have all been dead at least 73 years.

    I think next year is the Golden Age committee (1947-72) followed by the expansion era (72 on). Not much chance for modern players to get in, while they keep putting people in from before the world war(s)

  11. #31
    Early indications are that DBR has it's finger on the pulse of hall of fame voting, with no one having the necessary 75% of ballots which have been publicly announced. We'll see if that changes tomorrow.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Early indications are that DBR has it's finger on the pulse of hall of fame voting, with no one having the necessary 75% of ballots which have been publicly announced. We'll see if that changes tomorrow.
    Why wasn't Julio Franco on our list. Never understood why some writers wait on guys like Biggio. I feel like some don't vote against him being a HOFer but they vote against him being a 1st ballot HOFer which I'm pretty sure isn't in their job description. Then next year comes around with Glavine and Maddux and they don't want to vote multiple guys in so now Biggio and others will be pushed even further down the list. It'd be awkward if one of Glavine/Maddux gets in and one does not.

    Either way, I abhor this process although I find it fascinating.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Why wasn't Julio Franco on our list.
    The board software for polls has only 15 options. But it's not like Franco was the next one to be added in - he's way down the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    It'd be awkward if one of Glavine/Maddux gets in and one does not.
    Why? Maddux was much better than Glavine.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  14. #34

    maddox/glavine

    I agree with pfrduke -- big difference between Tom Glavine and Greg Maddox.

    Don't get me wrong -- I think Glavine is a HOFer ... but Maddox is one of the 5-6-7 greatet pitchers in history.

    Glavine won 305 games ... Maddox 355

    Glavine won 60.0 percent ... Maddox 61.0

    Glavine pitched 4413 innings ... Maddox 5008

    Glavine's career ERA was 3.54 ... Maddox was 3.16

    Glavine's ERA plus was 118 ... Maddox was 132

    Glavine won two Cy Youngs ... Maddox won four Cy Youngs (and I'll argue to my dying day that Maddox deserved the 1998 Cy Young that went to Glavine*).

    And I guess I should mention Maddox's 18 gold gloves (the most for any pitcher)

    The point is that both should go in -- but it's only a travesty if Glavine goes in before Maddox.

    * In 1998, pitching for the same team in the same ballpark, Maddox had the lower ERA (2.22 to 2.47), pitched more innings 251 to 229, had a much better WHIP (0.98 to 1.20), gave up less hits (think about that -- in 32 more innings, he gave up LESS hits) and had a much better SO/BB ratio (4.53 to 2.82). Better ERA-plus too -- 187 to 168. But Glavine got significantly better run support (more than a run per game) and this ended up with 20 wins to Maddox's 18 -- so for that, they gave Glavine the Cy Young.

  15. #35
    i\I know he won't get in, but I think Fred McGriff definitely deserves to be in the hall. If not for the strike shortened season he would have hit the random 500 hr mark, and his numbers are really good. I think (although I haven't double checked) that his numbers are better than Eddie Murray's across the board. The only think Murray had going for him was that he was a switch hitter (which is ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme). I'm also a fan of Biggio, Piazza, Tim Raines*, and Jack Morris.

    *I have heard stories that that the reason Tim Raines was nick named Rock, and the reason he always slid head first, was because of the coke he kept in his back pocket (also heard that about Dykstra). If there is truth to that, I'd be less likely to vote for him.
    My Quick Smells Like French Toast.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC

  17. #37

    nobody elected

    Very happy to see the cheaters miss by so much -- Bonds and Clemens both under 40 percent, Sosa at 12.5 percent. And the holdover cheaters -- McGwire and Palmiero -- both saw thier vote totals decline.

    I think it's obvious that the PED guys are never going to be voted in by the writers -- maybe in the distant future, some kind of veterans committee will force them down our throat -- but not the writers.

    I was disappointed that some clean players didn't get in. I thought Biggio deserved it. I think Piazza and Bagwell are paying the price for some PED suspicions. As always, I think Raines deserved beter.

    The interesting one is Jack Morris. He got 67 percent on his next-to-lasy ballot. If he doesn't make it next year (and with Maddox, Glavine, etc. on the ballot, he probably won't) then he'll becm thplayer with thehighest vote percentage ever to miss the Hall (right now that honor belongs to Gil Hodges at 63 percent) .. at eat he'll have that honor until a veterans committee puts him in.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    Aren't some of Bonds' record breaking home run balls on display in the Hall already? It would seem that we have already honored some of his tainted achievements by placing artifacts from them in the Hall. If his statistical achievements still appear in the record books, I don't get why he would not be in the Hall.

    I would love to see the Director of the Hall come out with a statement indicating that it would be up to the Hall, and not up to the player, to determine what information would be part of a player's HOF plaque and display. It would not just be about their golden moments, but also their notable failures... if appropriate. The message there would be, "if you induct one of these suspected PED abusers, we will make sure his display makes note of his tainted history."

    As you can tell, I think the Hall needs to address the careers of players like Bonds and Clemens. There is little question that they are the best batter/pitcher of the past 25 or so years. Their play had a huge influence on a couple decades of baseball success for their teams. Omitting them from the Hall, like they did not exist, makes no sense to me. I don't want to see the taints on their careers glossed over, it should be a significant part of their Hall plaques. To me, it does matter that Bonds and Clemens were clearly on their way to HOF careers before they supposedly began taking PEDs. *

    By the way, when Bud Selig is inevitably put into the Hall, his plaque should also make reference to him presiding over a dark era of baseball history where he and the other stewards of the game turned a blind eye to ridiculous abuse of PEDs.

    --Jason "*- if Barry Bonds had died in a place crash in 1998, he would have been elected to the Hall with 90%+ the very next year" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Craig Biggio not being selected was the one that kind of took me by surprise I thought 3,000 hits or 300 wins was almost a guarantee to get in on as a first ballot which makes Biggio the first person with 3,000 hits not associated with steroids or named Pete Rose to not get in on the first ballot since what '45. I also felt bad that Tim Raines didn't get selected again.

  20. #40

    Murray > Mcgriff

    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    i\I know he won't get in, but I think Fred McGriff definitely deserves to be in the hall. If not for the strike shortened season he would have hit the random 500 hr mark, and his numbers are really good. I think (although I haven't double checked) that his numbers are better than Eddie Murray's across the board. The only think Murray had going for him was that he was a switch hitter (which is ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme).
    Murray had more than just being a switch hitter going for him with the HOF voters - although he was one of the best switch hitters ever. He is in the 3,000 hit club (3255) and one of only 4 players I think to be both in the 3,000 hit club and 500 home run club (Mays, Aaron, Murray, Palmerio). McGriff had 2490 hits. Murray also had a few more home runs, a few more points on the B.A., but a lot more RBIs - 1917 to 1550. Murray was also a ROY and had several gold gloves, and 8 All Star appearances to 5 for McGriff.

    The fact that Murray was a first ballot HOF'er with 85% of the vote and McGriff hasn't gotten close, I think shows they weren't nearly the same player, statisically or in the eyes of the voters.
    Last edited by JasonEvans; 01-10-2013 at 09:18 AM. Reason: fixed tags

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