View Poll Results: Who Would You Elect

Voters
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  • Jeff Bagwell

    21 51.22%
  • Craig Biggio

    25 60.98%
  • Barry Bonds

    21 51.22%
  • Roger Clemens

    19 46.34%
  • Edgar Martinez

    6 14.63%
  • Mark McGwire

    12 29.27%
  • Jack Morris

    6 14.63%
  • Dale Murphy

    10 24.39%
  • Mike Piazza

    25 60.98%
  • Tim Raines

    15 36.59%
  • Curt Schilling

    14 34.15%
  • Sammy Sosa

    5 12.20%
  • Alan Trammell

    8 19.51%
  • David Wells

    4 9.76%
  • Bernie Williams

    3 7.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 1 to 20 of 66
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY

    MLB Hall of Fame - Ballot Announced, Vote Here

    This year's Hall of Fame ballot was announced today. It's a doozy both in term of the quality of first-time entrants and the meta-issue of PED use related to people who might, under other circumstances, be no-brainer first-ballot inductees. The Hall's list has 37 people on it - I put what I feel are the top 15 on this poll (apologies to Sandy Alomar, Roberto Hernandez, Aaron Sele, and Todd Walker, among others), but feel free to indicate if you would vote for someone else as well.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Among the people who I left off the list of 15 who may garner support are Mattingly, McGriff, Palmeiro, and Larry Walker.

    To be consistent with the Hall rules, vote for no more than 10.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    It's not cheating if it's not against the rules.

    Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, Bonds, Piazza

  4. #4

    no to the cheaters

    Absolutely no votes to the cheaters -- Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palermo ... not now, not ever.

    As much as I love Bernie Williams and Dale Murphy, I don't think they quite measure up. The same applies to a guy not on the list -- Don Mattingly. (Murphy and Mattingly were my two favorite players in the '80s).

    All three are, however, as good or better than some of the guys in the Hall -- but just because voters have made some bad choices in the past doesn't mean that we should lower the floor for HOF admission.

    Tim Raines and Alan Trammell are the two great omissions from recent years. Now that Blyleven is in, they are two great injustices.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dillon, Colorado
    Bonds, McGwire, Clemens and company, if for no other reason to stick it to the hypocritical, self-righteous whiners fighting 10-year-old battles.
    As suburban children we floated at night in swimming pools the temperature of blood. -- Douglas Coupland

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Absolutely no votes to the cheaters -- Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palermo ... not now, not ever.

    As much as I love Bernie Williams and Dale Murphy, I don't think they quite measure up. The same applies to a guy not on the list -- Don Mattingly. (Murphy and Mattingly were my two favorite players in the '80s).

    All three are, however, as good or better than some of the guys in the Hall -- but just because voters have made some bad choices in the past doesn't mean that we should lower the floor for HOF admission.

    Tim Raines and Alan Trammell are the two great omissions from recent years. Now that Blyleven is in, they are two great injustices.
    How did Mark McGwire cheat?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    How did Mark McGwire cheat?
    The same way Bonds, Clemons and company did.

    Don't tell me you're going to pull the old "it wasn't illegal then" line ... there was no baseball rule against bringing a gun to home plate and shooting the runner as he rounds third. That doesn't make it right (although it was a great scene in a 30s baseball movie entitled 'Death on the Diamond."

    There's a reason McGwire can't get 30 percent of the vote.

    BTW, When A-Roid comes up ... the same for him.

  8. #8
    Well so far, we don't have anyone with 75% of the vote. Biggio and Piazza are the closest with 8 of 13 votes. With both being first timers, I wouldn't be surprised to see some writers withhold their vote for a year. I think Biggio will get it but Piazza might have to wait a few years.

    Bagwell should eventually get in so look to see his % jump up but it would be nice to see Biggio/Bagwell go in together.

    Many are also suggesting Jack Morris goes in with the recent uptick in his votes. I don't have a historical idea how that works but it would make sense as players seem to gain momentum and their HOF vote takes a life of its own.

    As far as roids, they ain't getting in now andI don't think they'll ever get in. BBWAA are a fickle bunch and while I think some like Bonds and Mcgwire deserve to be in, the BBWAA will never forgive them.

    It'll also be interesting to see how Schilling's vote progresses. I think his credentials and most importantly his work in October makes him a worthy candidate but the guy was so polarizing and wasn't exactly loved by the media. I doubt he gets in on the first try but I would think he deserves to be in as well.
    Last edited by sporthenry; 11-29-2012 at 02:02 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    The same way Bonds, Clemons and company did.

    Don't tell me you're going to pull the old "it wasn't illegal then" line ... there was no baseball rule against bringing a gun to home plate and shooting the runner as he rounds third. That doesn't make it right (although it was a great scene in a 30s baseball movie entitled 'Death on the Diamond."

    There's a reason McGwire can't get 30 percent of the vote.

    BTW, When A-Roid comes up ... the same for him.
    Oh, but I am pulling that. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame, should he not be?

    Professional athletes take lots of medication to take care of their bodies, and if something wasn't specifically off-limits, the line between acceptable and unacceptable drugs and remedies was very gray until MLB decided to define it. Anybody using would-be illegal substances before they were tested for is clear in my book.

    The reason McGwire can't get 30% of the vote is that the voters are a very specific group of people with consistent biases. Imagine if we limited voting in presidential elections to only people 50 and older who had worked on Capitol Hill for their whole careers but had (mostly) never held political office. That's the BBWAA against the general populace.

    All that said, I agree, Alex Rodriguez doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame if he tested positive for steroids once it was solidified in the rule book. Once the whole baseball world decided to make a big stink of PEDs, you had to be crazy to take them.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Surprised that Tim Raines is not getting more love.

    Voted for Dale for sentimental reasons but do not think it is likely to happen. He was the franchise for years, though, and is just a great guy personally. Good luck Dale!
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Surprised that Tim Raines is not getting more love.
    Not just here either. I think the lack of voting support he's gotten on the BBWAA ballot is really misguided.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  12. #12

    bias

    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    Oh, but I am pulling that. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame, should he not be?

    Professional athletes take lots of medication to take care of their bodies, and if something wasn't specifically off-limits, the line between acceptable and unacceptable drugs and remedies was very gray until MLB decided to define it. Anybody using would-be illegal substances before they were tested for is clear in my book.

    The reason McGwire can't get 30% of the vote is that the voters are a very specific group of people with consistent biases. Imagine if we limited voting in presidential elections to only people 50 and older who had worked on Capitol Hill for their whole careers but had (mostly) never held political office. That's the BBWAA against the general populace.

    All that said, I agree, Alex Rodriguez doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame if he tested positive for steroids once it was solidified in the rule book. Once the whole baseball world decided to make a big stink of PEDs, you had to be crazy to take them.
    But my biases match their biases. That's why I will continue to celebrate McGwire's continued explusion. It was wrong and he knew it was wrong -- that's why he put on that shameful exibition before congress.

    I'm sure you'll celebrate when the first cheater gets in ...when that happens, I'll morn. Until then, I'll pop the cork when the election is announced and the PED crowd is turned away at the door.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Not just here either. I think the lack of voting support he's gotten on the BBWAA ballot is really misguided.
    Playing outside a major American media hub will hurt him, unfortunately. A dominant lead-off man and running threat of his generation.
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post

    Playing outside a major American media hub will hurt him, unfortunately. A dominant lead-off man and running threat of his generation.

    Not to mention one of the best sports nicknames ever.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    But my biases match their biases. That's why I will continue to celebrate McGwire's continued explusion. It was wrong and he knew it was wrong -- that's why he put on that shameful exibition before congress.

    I'm sure you'll celebrate when the first cheater gets in ...when that happens, I'll morn. Until then, I'll pop the cork when the election is announced and the PED crowd is turned away at the door.
    What was Mark McGwire doing in the 90s that was cheating, and do you support Gaylord Perry being in the Hall of Fame?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    What was Mark McGwire doing in the 90s that was cheating, and do you support Gaylord Perry being in the Hall of Fame?
    He used steroids which were illegal in the US. Perhaps we, along with the MLB were all naive but I guess they didn't see the need to have laws which overlapped with our national laws. You must also understand how little understood steroids were at this time. They were first made illegal in 1990 against the wishes of the FDA, DEA, and AMA. People who used them obviously knew what they were doing and their testimony in front of Congress shows they knew they shouldn't have done it or else Mark and company would have touted their drug use.

    ETA: Didn't answer the Gaylord Perry question. This isn't an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps I see it like this

    Doctoring a ball without being detected while standing on a mound in front of 40,000 people requires the sort of finely honed skill, wit and nerve that defines a great baseball player. Proceeding to admit it bespeaks an admirable audacity. (But) Jamming a needle in your backside while hiding in a clubhouse bathroom stall is the act of an oaf, a dullard and a coward. Denying it in the face of scientific evidence suggests the shrinkage the experts warn about is already in effect.
    I'm up in the air about Perry. I guess I have some of the "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" in me but some of that responsibility falls on the umpires/oppositions to catch the opponent. I'd liken it to a coach/player having JJ Redick act like he was fouled on the 1 and 1 as opposed to Lee Melchioni. That would technically be cheating as well but I think there is a fine line between sneaking something past your opponent than stacking the deck but now we are getting into an extremely gray area about what people consider "acceptable" cheating.
    Last edited by sporthenry; 11-29-2012 at 02:20 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    He used steroids which were illegal in the US. Perhaps we, along with the MLB were all naive but I guess they didn't see the need to have laws which overlapped with our national laws.
    Actually, they did. In 1991, Fay Vincent issued a memo which explicitly prohibited the use of steroids without a valid prescription. Bud Selig issued a memo reiterating this in 1997. And while baseball had not previously cited steroids explicitly as a prohibited substance, it had banned any prescription medication without a valid prescription in 1971. So using steroids in mlb has been in violation of league rues since McGwire was in little league.
    Last edited by Blue in the Face; 11-29-2012 at 04:00 PM.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  18. #18
    Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Bagwell, Trammell, Piazza, in that order. Considered Biggio and Edgar for a while, but eventually decided against.

    I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the voting so far. Definitely didn't expect to see either Piazza or Biggio in the lead. In my opinion, it's a little odd to vote for Biggio over Bagwell. I would think if the Astros could have only chosen 1 of them to have for all those years, it would have been Bagwell in a heartbeat.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denver
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Actually, they did. In 1991, Fay Vincent issued a memo which explicitly prohibited the use of steroids without a valid prescription. Bud Selig issued a memo reiterating this in 1997. And while baseball had not previously cited steroids explicitly as a prohibited substance, it had banned any prescription medication without a valid prescription in 1971. So using steroids in mlb has been in violation of league rues since McGwire was in little league.
    Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware. The follow-up question would then be, how well did the players know about that memo and did MLB do anything to enforce it? If that was the rule but it didn't really have teeth, then I would liken it driving 3 mph over the speed limit, which, while illegal, will never get you punished and isn't generally seen as 'law-breaking' by your peers. To continue the analogy with my previous point, driving 3 mph over the speed limit would not prevent you from being elected president (especially considering our most recent three Presidents have admitted to or are generally considered to have used illegal substances, no politics intended).

    Obviously I have a strong opinion in this case. Some of my earliest baseball memories include watching McGwire and Sosa duke it out in the home run chase, and being awed by a McDonald's ad in my SI for Kids that showed a cross-section of McGwire's arms. I can't tell 10-year-old Dev11 that Mark McGwire wasn't a Hall of Famer, because he really did mean that much to a growing generation of fans.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware. The follow-up question would then be, how well did the players know about that memo and did MLB do anything to enforce it? If that was the rule but it didn't really have teeth, then I would liken it driving 3 mph over the speed limit, which, while illegal, will never get you punished and isn't generally seen as 'law-breaking' by your peers. To continue the analogy with my previous point, driving 3 mph over the speed limit would not prevent you from being elected president (especially considering our most recent three Presidents have admitted to or are generally considered to have used illegal substances, no politics intended).
    Obviously mlb had no testing and did little (or nothing) to enforce the rule until pretty recently. Given the lack of enforcement, I imagine players didn't spend a lot of time thinking about the policy, but to me at least, it strains credulity to think that these guys didn't know that injecting themselves with something they couldn't legally acquire was against league rules. I also think your analogy misses the mark quite a bit, since the merits of someone to serve as President aren't particularly enhanced by having ever broken the speed limit or gotten high (at least in most people's eyes). The merits of someone's candidacy for the Hall of Fame are pretty significantly impacted by having used PED's, although at least with some of the guys we're talking about, I think absent any PED's they'd have had HOF careers.

    At any rate, I think I'd vote purely based on a player's performance, and give no regard to any known or suspected PED use. But I don't think we should gloss over the fact that it was against the rules, they almost surely knew it was against the rules, and it has, or can have, an impact on performance that makes it a much more significant offense than skirting the speed limit.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

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