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  1. #1

    Stan Musial (1920-2013)

    Stan Musial passed away today at 92. A truly great ballplayer, and along with everything else he accomplished in his career, he somehow managed to split his 3,630 career hits equally between home and road games.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    This is an early (not exhaustive) you-can-tell-we've-had-most-of-it-on-file for years obit form the local publishing concern.

    http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseb...97f7a263a.html

    I'm hoping they'll have something more extensive in the print edition on Sunday, or if deadline is too soon, Monday.

    Old men don't so well after their wives expire, and his wife Lillian died just eight months ago. There was a lot of coverage here on her, too.

    Only about thirty some-odd ex-MLB players were older than Musial at the time of his death. None had anything close to his profile.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...seball_players

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  3. #3

    Great players

    Bill James, writing a few years ago, pointed out that we mythologize and inflate our memories of a lot of old time ballplayers. He suggested two all-time greats that seem to have been diminished in our memory over time time -- Yogi Berra and Stan Musial.

    In Berra's case, it's easy to see why his greatness has faded in the public mind. He's been celebrated so much as a clown that we forget that he ws one of the two greatest catches of all time.

    In Musial's case, it's harder to understand what happened. He's not just a great player ... he's one of the all-time greats. In his first edition of the Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill James rated Musial as the greatest leftfielder in history -- ahead of No. 2 Ted Williams. He concedes that Williams was a slightly better hitter, but argued that Musial was superior in every other phase of the game -- fielding, baserunning and in the clubhouse.

    Later, James flip-flopped those rankings, but whether Musial is better than Teddy Ballgame or not, he's close enough to make it a debate -- and that's an incredible level of performance. Curt Flood, who joined the Cardinals when Musial was at the end of the road, wrote in his autobiography about what an inspirational player Musial was. Even at age 40, Flood said he was the hardest worker on the team.

    I can't forget the nickname -- Stan "The Man" Musial. That wasn't the invention of some press agent. That name was stuck on him by Brooklyn fans. During Musial's early years, the Cards and Dodgers dueled for National League supremecy. During one crucial at bat at Ebbets Field, a writer heard a Brooklyn fan complain, "Oh my god, here comes that Man again."

    Some baseball historians think he was part of the greatest outfield in baseball history -- Musial in left, Enos Slaughter in right and Terry Moore in center. Personally, I lean to the DiMaggio-Keller-Heinrich outfield of the Yankees and can see the case for the deadball outfield of Speaker-Hooper-Duffy -- but that 1940s Cardinal outfield is definitely in the running.

    PS I wanted to edit this to add a link to William Nack's story on ESPN. It makes the case better than I could that Musial was underrated. Also has some great info I didn't know about Musial's role in the integration of baseball. I knew he fought against a vote to boycott Jackkie Robinson's Dodgers -- I did not know he played high school baseball with Buddy Griffey -- the father of Ken Griffey and the gradfather of Ken Griffey Jr.:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...ill&id=3558127
    Last edited by Olympic Fan; 01-19-2013 at 11:46 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    I'm trying to bounce between the local and national coverage. Musial has overtaken the 6-0 Blues-Red Wings telecast (!) and even managed to get on the myopic ESPN SportsCenter telecast. (Te'o hasn't scratched his butt recently?) The overwhelming narrative about Musial has become over the last decade or so that he is the ultimate underrated dude relative to his cohort. People like Jayson Stark say that.

    We're gonna have a two hour retrospective on him on Fox MW Monday night. Musial was always right with the racial issues, and they'll have a respective about him on MLK Day--after Willie Mays put out a positive eulogy on him.

    BA is kind of a dumb stat, but no one other than Musial has ever hit .300 for more consecutive seasons than he did, sixteen.

    Second all time in total bases.

    I hate to make this a comparison with Albert, I really do. I think that it is

    a) a strength of this organization that losing Pujols has become sort of a large bump in the road rather than a crisis

    and

    b) a fact that people here really wanted Pujols to become the second Musial, as though everyone thought that was totally in Albert's reach. Maybe Albert will hit his achievements with two franchises, but the love was that he'd do that with one. And people here were willing to admit Pujols to a club of two. Wanted him to.

    Ah, they're showing Musial in his last start. I value him like I value Henry Aaron. Maybe not as much, because of white privilege, but you can't hit the guy on that basis.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Virginia Beach

    The Best

    Sad news indeed. I've lived primarily on the East Coast my entire life but my parents are from the Midwest and Dad is an enormous Cardinals fan. I am fortunate enough to be visiting home this weekend and noticed a melancholy look on Dad's face when the news story hit.

    Dad has told me about Stan the Man but having never seen him play it is hard to grasp his talent or what he achieved ( or, apparently, what a quality person he was). When you digest his career numbers it's almost unfathomable that he didn't get more pub as one the very best to ever play baseball. Perhaps there was East Coast bias even as far back as the 1940's.

    After Ted Williams passed I remember thinking to myself that Stan might very well be the best living baseball player. To whom does that mantle pass now? Mays? Aaron? Frank Robinson? Someone still active?

    Thanks for making so many great memories for my Dad, Stan.

  6. #6
    There was an interview with Robin Roberts, the great Phillie pitcher, several years ago, and the topic of modern day players signing autographs came up. The moderator complemented Roberts as a player who would be extremely patient and kind to autograph seekers. Roberts responded that he was sure that at times he disappointed some fans and probably left early before those who waited for his autograph had gotten it, but he said that there was one player who never, ever left before every fan who had waited for his authograph had gotten it and that player was Stan Musial.

    He said he remembered a game in St. Louis that ended at about 4 Pm and Roberts forgot something that he had left in the clubhouse and returned there at about 6 and there was Musial still signing autographs.

    I was one of the lucky one who grew up in Brooklyn and had the privilege of seeing Musial play in person at Ebbets Field and marveled at his talent even though he killed my beloved Dodgers. I believe in 2 seasons at Ebbets Field Musial hit over 500.

  7. #7

    Stan was "The Man" for fans....

    "He said he remembered a game in St. Louis that ended at about 4 Pm and Roberts forgot something that he had left in the clubhouse and returned there at about 6 and there was Musial still signing autographs."

    I grew up a Cardinals fan - from NJ no less. Little league Cardinals, 1964. Easy to root for the Cardinals in the 60's.

    Had a chance to meet Stan several times on the autograph circuit. Very glad I got to hear "Take Me Out to the Ballgame," as Stan usually played it entering the autograph area. He was so gracious with fans, asking questions, posing for pictures (the opposite of Willie Mays, usually quite surly).
    I was also happy my son got to meet him in Atlantic City at a 3,000 hit club show.

    Amazingly, Stan never struck out more than 50 times in a season, over 22 seasons. 7 batting titles, 3 MVPs and 19 All-Star games, and a true gentleman.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lompoc, West Carolina
    My father told me that he believed Stan Musial was the best all-around baseball player, ever. He placed The Man's position razor-thin over Joe DiMaggio yet less celebrated.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    I moved. Now 12 miles from Heaven, 13 from Hell
    IIRC, the fans voting for the All-Century team left him off, and he had to be added by the organizing group.

    (Of course, the fans voted for Nolan Ryan instead of Tom Seaver, too, speaking of somebody else who has been mostly forgotten in discussions of all-time greats.)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DU82 View Post
    IIRC, the fans voting for the All-Century team left him off, and he had to be added by the organizing group.
    He had decent company for that honor - Spahn, Wagner, Mathewson and Lefty Grove were similarly added.
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    By all accounts, Musial was one of the nicest people in the public sphere.

    Not most accounts. All accounts. It seems that no one ever had a bad word to say about Stan Musial.

    Great player, great human being.

    A pretty neat combination.

    Best living ex-player? The Say-Hey kid. Willie Mays, IMO, and by a wide margin.

    But that's an aside. Musial deserves all the accolades he receives.

  12. #12
    I am crying.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Best living ex-player? The Say-Hey kid. Willie Mays, IMO, and by a wide margin.
    Um, respect, but, Aaron too.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Musial Was My Hero

    I sported a St. Louis homemade uniform when I was seven down in Charleston. Because of Stan the Man, I batted lefthanded from age 8 to age 48 in organized baseball and softball, and I do everything else righthanded.

    One of the best players that ever lived and he won three World Series. Ted Williams, a butt as a player but a great guy in retirement, and Jolting Joe, no comment, had the support of the writers and broadcasters in the Northeast, who tended to ignore Musial except when he busted the fences at Ebbets Field. Musial was a complete ballplayer and lived a life as a complete gentleman. His career stats speak for themselves -- he held far more records than either Ted or Joe D. (or Mays for that matter).

    He deserves every accolade thrown his way.

    sagegrouse

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Um, respect, but, Aaron too.
    Willie Mays was a great defensive center fielder. As good as they come.

    Aaron was an adequate defensive outfielder.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 91devil View Post

    Perhaps there was East Coast bias even as far back as the 1940's.

    St. Louis represented the western edge of MLB until the Dodgers and Giants moved out to California in the late 1950s. The rest of MLB was concentrated in the Northeast and the upper, industrial Midwest. So yeah, I'm sure Musial missed out on a lot of pub because he played in a city that was, for most of his career, a frontier outpost on the MLB landscape.

  17. #17

    great players

    Always interesting to me when we start arguing about great players and which was the greatest. I think it says something that Musial is clearly in the conversation with Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron.

    Which is the best?

    Well, Mays and DiMaggio were regarded as great defenders -- the best of their era -- in centerfield. Musal and Aaron were solid corner outfielders- not great, but solid (Musial moved to first base midway through his career). Williams was regarded a a defensivel liability for most of his career -- not that he couldn't play good defense when he wanted to, but until very near the end, he couldn't be bothered to. He was Manny before Manny.

    Mays was a great baserunner. Aaron and Williams, not so much. Both DiMaggio and Musial were renowed for being smart, aggressive baserunners, but they played in an era when there were few stolen bases.

    As hitters, I think Williams was a clearcut No. 1 ... the other four are very close. Of course, four of these guys all played around 20 seasons. DiMaggio played just 13 seasons, so he didn't accumulate the career numbers that the others did. But over an average 162 game season, they stack up this way:

    Williams .344 37 HR 130 RBI/ 188 hits ... 1.116 OPS
    Musial . 331 25 HR 104 RBI/ 194 hits ... .976 OPS
    DiMaggio .325 34 HR 143 RBI/ 207 hits ... .977 OPS
    Aaron .304 37 HR 113 RBI/ 185 hits ... .928 OPS
    Mays .302 36 HR 103 RBI/ 178 hits ... .941 OPS

    It's an interesting debate ... but of course it's moot now -- Mays and Aaronon are the last of the two alive. They are so close offensively that I think you have to give the edge to Mays as the greatest living player -- unless you ignore steroids and bring Bonds and A-Roid into the discussion.

    One last note: Williams gave up 41/2 years of his career in his prime for military service. DiMaggio gave up three years in his prime. Mays and Musial both gave up one prime year. Aaron is the only one who avoided military service.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Always interesting to me when we start arguing about great players and which was the greatest. I think it says something that Musial is clearly in the conversation with Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron.

    Which is the best?

    Well, Mays and DiMaggio were regarded as great defenders -- the best of their era -- in centerfield. Musal and Aaron were solid corner outfielders- not great, but solid (Musial moved to first base midway through his career). Williams was regarded a a defensivel liability for most of his career -- not that he couldn't play good defense when he wanted to, but until very near the end, he couldn't be bothered to. He was Manny before Manny.

    Mays was a great baserunner. Aaron and Williams, not so much. Both DiMaggio and Musial were renowed for being smart, aggressive baserunners, but they played in an era when there were few stolen bases.

    As hitters, I think Williams was a clearcut No. 1 ... the other four are very close. Of course, four of these guys all played around 20 seasons. DiMaggio played just 13 seasons, so he didn't accumulate the career numbers that the others did. But over an average 162 game season, they stack up this way:

    Williams .344 37 HR 130 RBI/ 188 hits ... 1.116 OPS
    Musial . 331 25 HR 104 RBI/ 194 hits ... .976 OPS
    DiMaggio .325 34 HR 143 RBI/ 207 hits ... .977 OPS
    Aaron .304 37 HR 113 RBI/ 185 hits ... .928 OPS
    Mays .302 36 HR 103 RBI/ 178 hits ... .941 OPS

    It's an interesting debate ... but of course it's moot now -- Mays and Aaronon are the last of the two alive. They are so close offensively that I think you have to give the edge to Mays as the greatest living player -- unless you ignore steroids and bring Bonds and A-Roid into the discussion.

    One last note: Williams gave up 41/2 years of his career in his prime for military service. DiMaggio gave up three years in his prime. Mays and Musial both gave up one prime year. Aaron is the only one who avoided military service.

    Are we limiting this to post WWII? Because I sure would put Mr. Ruth in the mix.

  19. #19

    Jim

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Are we limiting this to post WWII? Because I sure would put Mr. Ruth in the mix.
    I was basically talking about the guys whose names had come up in the thread. Yeah, they are basically modern guys (although DiMaggio and Williams started befoe WWII ... even Musial made his debut three months before Pearl Harbor).

    Certainly Ruth is the greatest OF (and player) in baseball history, while Mr. Cobb and Mr. Speaker join the discussion.

    Actually, I probably should have included Mantle, who is basically contemporary to Mays and Aaron. By certain measures, Mantle was greater than DiMaggio ... and that clearly puts him in the mix with the guys we're talking about.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post

    Some baseball historians think he was part of the greatest outfield in baseball history -- Musial in left, Enos Slaughter in right and Terry Moore in center.
    Country Slaughter, of course, being best known as the Duke baseball coach in the 70s. (or was it for the Mad Dash?)

    Interesting the comment above about Yogi and Stan being underrated as both were St. Louis related players: Yogi, the St. Louis native, and Stan, the greatest Cardinal.

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