Baseball 2012 - Post-Season Thread

[Duvall]

Something amazing. I will sleep well tonight.

How? Shouldn't you have a little bit of guilt over reaping the rewards of a farcical postseason setup?

[sporthenry]

How? Shouldn't you have a little bit of guilt over reaping the rewards of a farcical postseason setup?

What is so farcical about this? Sure the Braves might have some gripe but the Nats got to face the Cards who had to use one of if not their best starter before they even got to the Nats.

[Olympic Fan]

One interesting aspect of the Detroit-New York ALCS is that the Tigers are VERY short on lefthanded pitching.

The Tigers had just two lefties on their roster for the ALDS -- Drew Smyly, a 23-year-old rookie starter who threw just 99 innings all year (and none against the A's in the ALDS) and Phil Coke, who has generally been terrible (a 4.00 ERA and a 1.648 WHIP). Now, I know they can change the roster before the LCS and maybe they will, but who will they add? Duane Below? Adam Wilk?

Obviously, Detroit's four expected starters are pretty good -- especially Verlander. But conventional wisdom suggests that you need lefties against the Yankees, especially in relief situations. With A-Roid struggling, the only key rigthy bat is Jeter ... unless you want to count Russell Martin, who has had some key hits with his .200 average. The best bats are lefties -- Cano, Granderson, Ichiro, Ibanez, even Chavez. Both Yankee switch hitters -- Teixera and Swisher -- are generally regarded as more dangerous from the left side than the right.

Will the Tigers lack of lefties hurt them? It didn't a year ago, when Detroit bat the Yankees in the ALDS.

But it's something to watch.

[JasonEvans]

Meh... I just became a huge Tigers fan. I was rooting for someone/something new this season. I had the As, Os, Nats, and Tigers. After one round, all that I have left are the Tigers.

If the Yankees or Cards win, I may stop watching baseball. I could not be more sick of those teams always turning it on in the post-season. The "we win for 162 games and then suck in the randomness of the playoffs" Braves fan in me hates you with the intensity of a thousand fiery suns.

-Jason "162 games... so we get to lose in 1... I still am not over that" Evans

[sporthenry]

Meh... I just became a huge Tigers fan. I was rooting for someone/something new this season. I had the As, Os, Nats, and Tigers. After one round, all that I have left are the Tigers.

If the Yankees or Cards win, I may stop watching baseball. I could not be more sick of those teams always turning it on in the post-season. The "we win for 162 games and then suck in the randomness of the playoffs" Braves fan in me hates you with the intensity of a thousand fiery suns.

-Jason "162 games... so we get to lose in 1... I still am not over that" Evans

I'm with you 100%. Tigers have to be the team to root for at this point.

Another interesting tidbit, All 4 teams left are in the top 9 of payrolls over $110 million. I'm sure we'll hear something about parity with the O's and Nat's but 3 of the last 4 teams left also happen to be the last 3 champions.

[Olympic Fan]

Meh... I just became a huge Tigers fan. I was rooting for someone/something new this season. I had the As, Os, Nats, and Tigers. After one round, all that I have left are the Tigers.

If the Yankees or Cards win, I may stop watching baseball. I could not be more sick of those teams always turning it on in the post-season. The "we win for 162 games and then suck in the randomness of the playoffs" Braves fan in me hates you with the intensity of a thousand fiery suns.

-Jason "162 games... so we get to lose in 1... I still am not over that" Evans

Jason, I can understand that there are a lot of reasons to hate the Yankees, but I don't see where this is one of them.

New York finished with the best record in the American League. By your logic, shouldn't you be pulling for the 95-win Yankees to prevail over the 88-win Tigers?

The Yankee have never been one of those teams like the Cards that sneak in the playoffs and then win it all. They had the best record in the AL in 2012, 2011 (and lost in the ALDS), 2009 (six games better than anybody else and won the series), 2006 (when the wild card Tigers beat the AL best Yankees in the ALDS), 2004 (when the wild card Red Sox beat the AL Best Yankee in the ALCS), 2003 (the AL Best Yankees did win the pennant), 2002 (when the 103-win Yankees -- that tied the A's for AL Best -- lost to the wild card Angels).

That's just back 10 years -- nobody has been more victimized by the "randomness of the playoffs" than the Yankees. In seven of the last 10 years the Yankees have had the best record in the AL -- and only twice in that time have their repesented the AL in the World Series. The Yankees have been a wild card twice in that time (and missed the playoffs once), but they never went anywhere as a wild card. You have to go back to 2001 -- when the Yankees beat the 116-win Mariners in the ALCS to find a time when the Yankees beat a team with a better record in the playoffs ... ad even then the Yankees won heir division and had the second best record in the AL.

So hate on the Yankees if you want, but not for the reason you mention. In fact, twice ion the last six years, Tiger teams with inferior records have beaten the Yankees in the ALDS. So if you're really concerned about the sanctity of the 162-game schedule, shouldn't you be pulling for the Yankees against the Tigers?

[throatybeard]

What is so farcical about this? Sure the Braves might have some gripe but the Nats got to face the Cards who had to use one of if not their best starter before they even got to the Nats.

Exactly.

This is simply trolling by Duvall, because he's one of the smartest people I've ever known, so I can't believe he actually believes what he's saying.

The new format benefited the Nationals if you believe the regular season record is an accurate metric of team strength. Their "rightful" opponent as a WC under the old format, Atlanta, was eliminated in a one-game playoff. In other words, they "should have" faced the stronger Braves. So they were rewarded with facing a weaker team, in this calculus.

A weaker team who had to burn their 2012 ace, Lohse, before getting to the NLDS.

I suppose if you think any WC is bull, then the Braves would be out too. But then you have mediocre teams like the 2006 Cardinals winning divisions with no wild cards as a corrective.

Here's a solution for Washington. Don't blow a six-run lead in the clincher.

Now, if you want to make a more nuanced argument about run differentials and stuff like that, the Reds and the Cardinals may look different. (Look it up). But this is no less a supposed travesty that the Tigers (a winner of a weak division) beating Oakland (which no one is talking about). An argument for 7 games in the DS, or no second WC--sure. But the Nationals were rewarded by the system with an opponent with fewer wins than they "should" have faced. They won two one-run games, got their butts kicked twice, and blew a six run lead. And somehow this is evidence of a suddenly flawed system.

If Duvall wants to vent his spleen on the Cardinals, he should start with the 2006 team that went 83-79, won a horrible division, and won the playoffs.

It's funny to me that no one complains about teams that barely make the NFL playoffs winning the Super Bowl as some sort of travesty. I guess it has to do with the fewer number of games. NHL too. But they have a ton of games. The Kings were an 8-seed.

[throatybeard]

The irrationality in this thread has pushed me into--and this hurts me, people--agreement with Olympic Fan. The NYY do not turn it on all the time in October--they have spent most of the dozen years since 2000 losing in the playoffs. They pulled it off in 2009. But mostly, they lose in the crapshoot that is the baseball playoffs. That's what happens when you're one of eight (or now ten) teams in a playoff.

Between 2006 and 2011, the Cardinals did not win a single playoff game. In 2004 they got swept in the WS.

A hot team winning in the playoffs is not a travesty. Especially in a five game series. Grow up, folks.

I eagerly await seeing the same people argue that a six-round single-elimination tournament with a 9th (or 34th) "wildcard" is a completely unfair postseason for a sport, because it doesn't reflect the regular season, and that they're going to quit watching the sport as a result. Oh wait, that would never happen on this board.

[theAlaskanBear]

If Duvall wants to vent his spleen on the Cardinals, he should start with the 2006 team that went 83-79, won a horrible division, and won the playoffs.

I have to disagree with you here Throaty -- the poor record in 2006 was the result of injury-plagued season that masked the greatness of a team that went to WS in 2004, NLCS in 2005, and finally won the WS in 2006.

Pujols was injured the first time that year, Edmonds was injured a huge portion of the season, Eckstein was hurt, Mark Mulder was on the DL nearly the entire year, and our closer Jason Isringhausen blew a billion saves that year and was shut down with hip surgery.

Look at the core of that team: Pujols, Rolen, Edmond, Molina, Carpenter...They won 100 games in 2005 and 105 games in 2004. To say they didn't deserve to win belies the facts that the core of this team was DOMINANT. You dont make it to a WS, NLCS, and a WS in three consecutive years without deserving it.

[throatybeard]

I have to disagree with you here Throaty -- the poor record in 2006 was the result of injury-plagued season that masked the greatness of a team that went to WS in 2004, NLCS in 2005, and finally won the WS in 2006.

Pujols was injured the first time that year, Edmonds was injured a huge portion of the season, Eckstein was hurt, Mark Mulder was on the DL nearly the entire year, and our closer Jason Isringhausen blew a billion saves that year and was shut down with hip surgery.

Look at the core of that team: Pujols, Rolen, Edmond, Molina, Carpenter...They won 100 games in 2005 and 105 games in 2004. To say they didn't deserve to win belies the facts that the core of this team was DOMINANT. You dont make it to a WS, NLCS, and a WS in three consecutive years without deserving it.

You're right.

Also, there's another thing Washington could have done besides not blowing a six run lead, too, that doesn't involve the wild card. They could have avoided horribly mismanaging this Strasburg situation. They could have started his season in mid-May or early June, a la old Clemens, and still preserved the innings limit. Or they could have kept him on a strict 5-innings limit the whole year. I have to think with Strasburg, there's a lower chance Washington loses games two and three in blowouts.

[Jim3k]

You're right.

Also, there's another thing Washington could have done besides not blowing a six run lead, too, that doesn't involve the wild card. They could have avoided horribly mismanaging this Strasburg situation. They could have started his season in mid-May or early June, a la old Clemens, and still preserved the innings limit. Or they could have kept him on a strict 5-innings limit the whole year. I have to think with Strasburg, there's a lower chance Washington loses games two and three in blowouts.

Or...Davey could have used the hook on Gio when he began to walk people. And again when Storen began to walk people--he's been used for 4 straight games. Blame Davey who seemed to think these were regular season games. He could have burned a starter if necessary to save the the 9th from disaster.

[sagegrouse]

Or...Davey could have used the hook on Gio when he began to walk people. And again when Storen began to walk people--he's been used for 4 straight games. Blame Davey who seemed to think these were regular season games. He could have burned a starter if necessary to save the the 9th from disaster.

As a Nats fan, that was a horrible loss -- one of the worst in my experience. Here's my "dirty dozen" losses when I thought my team was gonna win (whether during the game or with utter certainty ahead of time):

1. Duke-Louisville NCAA finals - 1986 - Would, shoulda, coulda
2. Duke-UConn* NCAA finals - 1999 - A mortal lock, I thought
3. Duke-UCLA NCAA finals - 1964 - UCLA had no one taller than 6-5
4. Redskins-Dolphins Super Bowl VII - 1973 - Miami was undefeated, but an underdog
5. Duke-Arkansas NCAA finals - 1994 - Ten point lead with 7:00 to do
6. Duke-UConn* NCAA semis - 2004 - Seven-point lead with 2:30 to go
7. Nationals-Cardinals NLDS game 5 - 2012 - Played 100 times with a 6-0 lead or two-run lead with two outs, two strikes in the ninth, Nats win 99 times
8. Redskins-Raiders Super Bowl XVIII - 1984 - Highest scoring NFL team in history would have no trouble with ancient Jim Plunkett and the Raiders
9. Duke-UNC football* - 1960 - Best Duke team of the past 60 years was "sure to win" at Chapel Hill
10. Duke-Indiana Sweet Sixteen - 2002 - No chance we lose - make the free throw, Jason
11. Duke-Arizona Sweet Sixteen - 2011 - Two freak three-pointers kept Zona from being buried in the 1st half
12 (tie) Duke-Kentucky Regional Finals - 1998 - 17-point lead - a 17-point lead!
12 (tie) Duke-LSU Sweet Sixteen - 2006 - JJ was sure to get one more Final Four!

* - Sage was there

Well, that was therapeutic!

sagegrouse

[throatybeard]

Or...Davey could have used the hook on Gio when he began to walk people. And again when Storen began to walk people--he's been used for 4 straight games. Blame Davey who seemed to think these were regular season games. He could have burned a starter if necessary to save the the 9th from disaster.

Great point. What on earth was going on there? I guess both managers were guilty of slow-paying it when fires were raging.

I'm not a a criticize-the-manager-for-the-sake-of-it guy. I just really do feel, given his resources, Matheny could have yoinked Waino at 0-4 instead of 0-6. I wasn't suggesting, say, the first seven pitches of the first inning.

[Blue in the Face]

This morning's 12th inning will not rank among the best in Yankee franchise history.

[MChambers]

You're right.

Also, there's another thing Washington could have done besides not blowing a six run lead, too, that doesn't involve the wild card. They could have avoided horribly mismanaging this Strasburg situation. They could have started his season in mid-May or early June, a la old Clemens, and still preserved the innings limit. Or they could have kept him on a strict 5-innings limit the whole year. I have to think with Strasburg, there's a lower chance Washington loses games two and three in blowouts.

Apparently you and John Feinstein think alike (at least on this point).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...bee_story.html

As a Nats fan, however, I think you're both wrong on this one and Mike Rizzo is right. The issue has been discussed, repeatedly, and probably isn't worth debating here. In any event, I find it bizarre that a pro franchise is being for being overly concerned with the health and career longevity of one of its players.

[Olympic Fan]

This morning's 12th inning will not rank among the best in Yankee franchise history.

Hate to waste one of the great comebacks in franchise history. I wonder if it has lingering effect?

The guys on MLB raised an interesting point -- would it have been better for the Yankees mentally to have just gone down quietly in the ninth? Easy to shrug off one loss in a seven-game series. But after investing so much emotion in the comeback, is it crushing to go ahead and lose in the 12th?

It reminds me a little of the 1995 Duke-UNC basketball game. Duke makes an incredible comeback in regulation to force OT, then makes an even more incredible comeback at the end of OT (down seven with eight seconds left, Duke ties on Capel's midcourt buzzer-beater) to force second OT. Then we lose in the second OT.

Well, we'll see this afternoon.

[Blue in the Face]

The guys on MLB raised an interesting point -- would it have been better for the Yankees to have just gone down quietly in the ninth?

Well, it certainly would have been better for Derek Jeter.

[PumpkinFunk]

As a Nats fan, that was a horrible loss -- one of the worst in my experience.

That was, without a doubt, the worst sports loss of my (admittedly short - 23 years) life - made worse by the fact that I was in Nats Park as it happened. The only one that even comes close is Duke-UNC football in 2007, when we had the win until Joe Surgan missed a chip shot at the end of regulation. I don't want to know that the umpires made good ball/strike calls, because I will forever be convinced that they were screwing us with our pants on. Davey screwed up managing the game in a major way, unfortunately. (Jackson was, shockingly, the right call - I was sure that would kill us - but Gio needed to be pulled sooner, Storen needed to be pulled earlier, I mean, it was awful). It's been a painful lifetime as a DC sports fan, but this was by far the worst DC sports moment I've experienced. Only one night after Game 4, the absolute greatest DC sports moment I've ever experienced.

[throatybeard]

That right there was a bon Motte.

I salute you, Detroit. But the Braves had the NYY down 2-0 in 1996. Be ever vigilant.

[throatybeard]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/no-show...ving-fans.html

Seriously? In a Metro area larger than StL by at least six times?