Barry Hits #756!

[JasonEvans]

Then, in my opinion, it wasn't Bonds or baseball that stole your son's experience of witnessing history, it was you and the sportswriters who have spoon-fed your 10 year old the idea that Bonds is a "bad guy". If your kid doesn't like cheaters, don't let him watch baseball at all.

Ummm, but they like baseball. Why should they let one or even a bunch of cheaters stop them from enjoying the art of the game and admiring the guys who "do it right?" Are we not allowed to enjoy the game today because we think some players cheated?

Steroids are all well and good as long as the players are hitting .285 with 21 HR. Baseball is a wonderful game. But as soon as one guy stands out and does something historic, let's heap the blame on him and turn him into a cheater. Don't hate the player, hate the game. MLB did this.

I don't entirely disagree. MLB turned a blind eye to steroids when it needed something to stir fan interest. Still, most people think Barry Bonds is a cheater. As my above post went to great lengths to show-- unlike many cheaters throughout history, Barry did not need to cheat to be great or set records. That si what is so sad about this case. What's more, his cheating allowed him to breake a record held by one of the most honorable and respected men in the history of sports. It does not matter to me or to my kids what the circumstances were that led to Barry's cheating. He cheated. Period. End of story.

And when you take all of it away, all that's left is a "tainted" record because Bonds isn't a media darling.

I don't think this has anything to do with whether Barry is or is not a media darling. Are you suggesting that I would think it was ok for him to cheat if he was a nicer guy? Heck, McGuire and Sosa are very nice guys and I think they cheated and I am not a fan of either of them. Of course, there is less evidence of their cheating than there is of Bonds... though that is probably just because there are not grand jury inbvestigations into steroid use in Chicago and St. Louis.

Did he take steroids? I can buy that accusation. But don't tell me that 8 out of 10 pitchers he made look foolish during his career weren't doing the same thing.

2 points here--

1) I disagree. I don't think that 80% of the players in MLB were taking steroids during the late 1990s and early 2000s. I especially doubt that a huge percentage of pitchers were doing it. For most successful pitchers, it is more about control of where the ball is going and how it is moving than it is about overwhelming power. Sure, there are some who just rear back and throw it past you, but I don't really think Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and other pitchers who make a living "on the corners" would bother to go roid crazy.

2) Who gives a !^@&@! whether other players were doing it? Are you saying that if other guys are cheating that makes it ok for Barry to cheat? What kinda lunatic logic is that? Sorry, but my message to my kids will always be, "DON'T CHEAT even if the other guys are doing it. Beat them by playing honestly and you'll feel even better about your win."

One final note-- my son got his views about Barry from somewhere other than me. I have not discussed it extensively with him. I think he and his friends have talked about it.

How do your kids feel about Brett Farve? I bet they think he's a prototypical tough guy who will play through anything, don't they? Or maybe they're Panthers fans who love Julius Peppers.

My kids barely know who Farve or Peppers are. They are not big football fans and have very little connection to football stars... except Michael Vick who they now do not like anymore.

-Jason "I used to be a big Bonds defender... but the grand jury stuff changed my mind" Evans

[watzone]

I'm old school. I can happily say I have yet to see the HR, although I am sure that won't last.

[g_olaf]

I'm old school. I can happily say I have yet to see the HR, although I am sure that won't last.

It was beautiful... what a swing.

However, his next at bat, #757, was even prettier, an inside pitch that he put into the bay.

[hurleyfor3]

There's a new home run champion of all time! And it's Barry Bonds!

If conventional wisdom is so much against Bonds, he can't be all that bad. Get over it, people.

[allenmurray]

Floyd Landis won the Tour de France.
Give the East German Women swimmers thier Olympic medals back.
Give Ben Johnson back his world record.

[micah75]

I was a big fan of Hank growing up, but I have to wonder if he played in this particular era where 50 to 80% of the players are or have been taking steroids would he have not been tempted, at least in part due to his competitive nature? And if Barry had played ball back in Hank's era where steroids were not nearly as prolific, would he not have abstained? And if Barry is going to be called a cheater, why isn't MLB going after the other 50 to 80% of the players who have been taking steroids during the present era,1985 thru the present, according to Peter Gammons. Aren't they cheaters as well? Or do you just go after the high profile cheaters and let the lower level cheaters have their fun.

[Channing]

just because everyone is doing it, at least in my book, does not make it alright.

[JasonEvans]

I was a big fan of Hank growing up, but I have to wonder if he played in this particular era where 50 to 80% of the players are or have been taking steroids would he have not been tempted, at least in part due to his competitive nature? And if Barry had played ball back in Hank's era where steroids were not nearly as prolific, would he not have abstained? And if Barry is going to be called a cheater, why isn't MLB going after the other 50 to 80% of the players who have been taking steroids during the present era,1985 thru the present, according to Peter Gammons. Aren't they cheaters as well? Or do you just go after the high profile cheaters and let the lower level cheaters have their fun.

This is what George Mitchell has been working upon. He should have his report ready by 2017 or so.

--Jason "I know that when I think of someone to look into honesty and integrity, I am always going to pick a former politician to write my report" Evans

[DevilWolf]

I'm not saying it's right because everyone's doing it. I'm saying that I don't label Bonds a cheater when he's playing a game that is infested by cheaters. I can completely understand people not liking baseball because of widespread steroid use. I don't understand people singling out Bonds as a cheater while cheering for guys like Howard and A-Rod to break his record.

[A-Tex Devil]

I'm in the no asterix group. Sure Bonds is an a-hole, and I'd prefer he didn't break it for that reason, but geez, can we definitely say that steroids are the reason he broke the record? He broke it, it's over, root for A-Rod or Pujols to catch him if you want. But right now he's unequivocally the champ.

I mean, as I said before, steroids and performance enhancers directly affected the performance results of Ben Johnson, East German swimers, et. al. In baseball, what is its direct effect on performance? The ball goes a little further? OK, so what percentage of Barry's home runs wouldn't have gone over had he not juiced? I think people can unequivocally say that Ben Johnson wouldn't have been 9.79 had he not juiced. Not so for the 73 home runs in 2001.

If it puts a taint on it in some people's eyes, fine. But steroids do not help you make contact. If Bonds had broken Dimaggio's record in 2001, would people say that record was tainted.

Anyway, I know baseball fans are stat obsessed, but I think big picture, steroids effect on the game have been relatively minor. They should be banned and players should be punished because we don't want our children emulating that substance abuse. But some kind of affront on the integrity of the game? Please. No more so than the cocaine scandals in the NBA in the 70s and 80s. It was bad and needed to be stopped, but I don't think anyone is questioning any records, champs from that era.

[Highlander]

How do your kids feel about Brett Farve? I bet they think he's a prototypical tough guy who will play through anything, don't they? Or maybe they're Panthers fans who love Julius Peppers.

Are you implying that painkiller and dietary supplement abuse is in the same league as steroid abuse?

I think it's important to note that both Peppers and Favre paid for their mistakes, and haven't done it again. Of similar note, Ben Johnson's medals were stripped and his world record time erased when he was caught doping. Floyd Landis and a host of other cyclists were kicked off the tour this year for doping. However, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa all got off scott free, even though it is obvious they juiced. And their records stand.

The defense of "everyone else in the league was taking steroids too" sounds too much to me like telling the cop that you shouldn't get a ticket because "everyone else was speeding too."

I'm a bit miffed that McGwire gets off scott free too, especially since he retired before the gauntlet dropped and left Barry holding the needle (so to speak). His homerun chase was so much fun to watch. Finding out afterwards that he cheated to do it just cheapens the whole experience for me.

[TillyGalore]

I'm a bit miffed that McGwire gets off scott free too, especially since he retired before the gauntlet dropped and left Barry holding the needle (so to speak). His homerun chase was so much fun to watch. Finding out afterwards that he cheated to do it just cheapens the whole experience for me.

I disagree, I think McGwire did pay in that he was not voted in the HOF this year and his reputation is tarnished. Granted on the surface that may not seem like a big deal, but it may be to him.

[g_olaf]

fwiw - here is the evidence:

(2) his head has grown from a 7 1/8 - 7 1/4 since he has been in San Francisco (despite the fact he has started shaving his head since coming to san fran)

A WHOLE HAT SIZE!? Wow. That's a change in head circumference of 3/8th of an inch. This means that the diameter of his head grew less than an 1/8th of an inch. Given that head circumference grows through 46 to 56 years (Buchi EC, 1950, cited in: Eichorn DH and Bayley N, Child Development, Vol. 33, No. 2. (Jun., 1962), pp. 257-271.), I can't find this particular piece of evidence very compelling.

[Duvall]

A WHOLE HAT SIZE!? Wow. That's a change in head circumference of 3/8th of an inch. This means that the diameter of his head grew less than an 1/8th of an inch. Given that head circumference grows through 46 to 56 years (Buchi EC, 1950, cited in: Eichorn DH and Bayley N, Child Development, Vol. 33, No. 2. (Jun., 1962), pp. 257-271.), I can't find this particular piece of evidence very compelling.

Well, there's also the fact that Bonds has admitted to using performance enhancing drugs. He just denies that he knew the nature of those products at the time.

[DevilAlumna]

This is what George Mitchell has been working upon. He should have his report ready by 2017 or so.

--Jason "I know that when I think of someone to look into honesty and integrity, I am always going to pick a former politician to write my report" Evans

George Mitchell's pretty widely considered to be an upstanding guy, political background notwithstanding. You could do much worse.

But yeah, what is it with choosing former pols for these sorts of things?

[DevilWolf]

"I think it's important to note that both Peppers and Favre paid for their mistakes, and haven't done it again. Of similar note, Ben Johnson's medals were stripped and his world record time erased when he was caught doping. Floyd Landis and a host of other cyclists were kicked off the tour this year for doping."

I think it's equally important to note that Peppers, Johnson and Landis all actually tested positive for banned substances. I threw Farve in there because he's the poster boy for tough-guy quarterbacks and we all hail his consecutive start streak, a feat that was certainly aided by his addiction to pain killers. The most compelling argument I've heard that Bonds "cheats" and continues to "cheat" is that nobody can possibly get better after the age of 35 like Bonds has.

I'd even argue that he hasn't gotten better. He's hit more home runs, but he's changed his game over the year. Back in the day, Bonds was a sick athlete who could hit for power, hit for average, run the bases, field, etc. As he got older, to stay relevant he became a power hitter.

Look, if Bonds was on roids, I'm not defending the use of steroids. I'm just saying it's quite hyprocritical to sit there and call Bonds a cheater, and then turn around and cheer on any other baseball player of the current era.

[Duvall]

The most compelling argument I've heard that Bonds "cheats" and continues to "cheat" is that nobody can possibly get better after the age of 35 like Bonds has.

Well, that and the fact that he admitted under oath to having taken steroids.

[cato]

Look, if Bonds was on roids, I'm not defending the use of steroids. I'm just saying it's quite hyprocritical to sit there and call Bonds a cheater, and then turn around and cheer on any other baseball player of the current era.

So, now 100% of the players are juiced these days? Wow.

By the way, I thought that we were comparing Bonds to Aaron.

At any rate, what I'm hearing is that the strongest defense for Bonds is: "Yeah, sure, he's probably a cheat, but it doesn't count, because everybody cheated." Now THAT'S something to be proud of right there.

[captmojo]

All this leads to wondering what could have been.

What could Clemente have been if he had gotten juiced?

[A-Tex Devil]

All this leads to wondering what could have been.

What could Clemente have been if he had gotten juiced?

What would have happened if Clemente regularly faced starting pitchers with an extra day of rest, who weren't allowed to stay in the game after 100 pitches, and he had to deal with the better quality of relief pitchers these days rather than a schlub left in until the 7th because, even though he was bad, he was the best option. Perhaps he would have not had the stats he had?

As I said before -- different eras, different advantages and disadvantages. For career records, all you can go by is the number itself and leave it at that, because just about everything else is different.

Barry is an a-hole who probably took performance enhancers. But if you can't quantify how it effected his game, then screw the asterix, let bygones be bygones, and hope A-Rod or Pujols can break it in 10 years so we don't have to worry about Barry anymore.