Other College Basketball coaches think Roy Williams is overrated

[jimsumner]

I don't want to argue your point, except to point out that Duke's record in the 1960's was pretty good: 4 ACC titles, 4 regular season 1st place, 3 Final Fours, 1 Elite Eight. Only UCLA and Kentucky won more games in the 1960's. And a couple of pretty good teams did not win the ACC Tourney.

So, maybe the right formulation is that K returned Duke to national prominence and grew it from there.

Billy Packer argued a lot of things. He was even sometimes right.

Actually, Duke was third in wins in the 1960s to UCLA and Cincinnati. Kentucky was seventh.

I probably would rank pre-McGuire Carolina a tad higher than Olympic Fan. They did finish second in the 1946 NCAAs and George Glamack was a first-team All-America in 1941. And Helms jokes notwithstanding, Carolina was pretty good in the 1920s.

Ironically, Duke won the 1946 Southern Conference Tournament but Carolina got the invite. In fact, none of Duke's five Southern Conference Tournament titles resulted in an NCAA Tournament invitation, not even Eddie Cameron's last team in 1942, which went 22-2. It was an eight-team field in those days and Kentucky tended to get the Southeast slot.

McGuire took over a Carolina program that had fallen well behind Everett Case and North Carolina State and was none too happy about it. His predecessor at Carolina, Tom Scott knew his X and Os as well as anyone but wasn't all that enthusiastic about that recruiting thing.

[OldPhiKap]

Bobby Cremins was probably the best recruiter in the ACC for a good long stretch. Would anyone call him a good coach, though?

Roy is a modern-day Bobby Cremins, with a more popular and established brand to pitch.

[devildeac]

Nice try Wheat, but the facts are such that WWW has never steered a single recruit to Duke, nor to my knowledge has he ever been given access to Duke teams, locker rooms, practices, etc. Wes is a Kentucky/Calipari guy through and through.

K allowed WWW (along with numerous other people) to attend the USA team practice, workouts, etc, because of the relationship WWW has with the NBA guys, mainly Lebron. None of that has anything at all to do with Duke Basketball or Duke recruits. The statement that "K is dealing with street agents" really did not make sense to me, so not sure what that would even mean. I assume all coaches have relationships with numerous agents, and assist their players with agent selection once their college careers come to an end. Maybe you meant agent "runners", but again, I think there is a better chance of Hell having ice, and Mars having humans, than K dealing with runners.

Well, here's your first one:

funny_graduation_card_hell_freezes_over-p137834164602600933bflbv_400.jpg

[turnandburn55]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting...and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.


Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

So what you're saying is that you tried to conflate the word "overrated" with "bad", you got called out on it, didn't like it, and now you're trying to conflate the word "overrated" with "shady"

I compliment your excellent work on bait-and-switch. I look forward to you discussing the actual subject line of thread.

[BD80]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting...and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.


Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

[oldnavy]

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

First of all it is not Wheat's fault he can't write in Swahili. He was blocked from taking the "course" because he wasn't a big time footballer or b baller! Just Kidding... maybe Wheat was, I don't really know.

And yes Wheat, that is a real stretch... the converse to K "allowing" WWW to be near the team, would be him telling grown men (professionals) who they can and cannot associate with... kind of like we try to do with our teenage kids... ridiculous to think that he would.

When there is evidence that WWW is attending Duke practices, let's talk.

I happen to agree with the idea that Ol Roy is overrated in the sense that he is a great "coach". The problem with this is that it doesn't matter what the 100 coaches, or I think about Ol Roy. He wins, and he wins without cheating (as far as we know, I would like to hear more about the academic scandle and BB players before I say anything else about that). But I am willing to give him a clean record until it is PROVEN different with actual facts.

Roy IS overrated as a coach, big deal, I'd take him and his 80% win record and just smile when folks said that if I were a UNC fan...

[OldPhiKap]

Wow. That's shoddy logic - even by carolina standards. Perhaps it is just awful reading comprehension. To bad it wasn't in Swahili.

Roy Williams si nzuri kama yeye inaonekana kuwa.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My last post was simply a hypothetical example of how these offseason articles are written to stir the pot.

I saw where coach K has allowed WWW to travel with the O team. All it would take is a couple of jealous/anonymous sources/coaches comments and an article saying, "coach k has a new friend, WWW" , insinuating shady recruiting from a web site hoping to drive traffic and Duke fans would be out in force defending coach K's integrity...when it was a crock story from the start.

Sort of like that article saying one of the top coaches in the country is overrated, when he has a a proven track record against those same"sources".

[OldPhiKap]

My last post was simply a hypothetical example of how these offseason articles are written to stir the pot.

I saw where coach K has allowed WWW to travel with the O team. All it would take is a couple of jealous/anonymous sources/coaches comments and an article saying, "coach k has a new friend, WWW" , insinuating shady recruiting from a web site hoping to drive traffic and Duke fans would be out in force defending coach K's integrity...when it was a crock story from the start.

Sort of like that article saying one of the top coaches in the country is overrated, when he has a a proven track record against those same"sources".

But the difference here is that the source of the opinion is not some hack writer trying to drive traffic to his or her site. It is Roy's peers.

If they took a coach's poll, and a significant number thought that K was shady, your argument might hold water (or "maji" in Swahili). And I would be greatly concerned if K's peers thought that.

Doesn't it bother you that Roy's peers think he's the most overrated coach?

[allenmurray]

Nice try Wheat, but the facts are such that WWW has never steered a single recruit to Duke, nor to my knowledge has he ever been given access to Duke teams, locker rooms, practices, etc. Wes is a Kentucky/Calipari guy through and through.

K allowed WWW (along with numerous other people) to attend the USA team practice, workouts, etc, because of the relationship WWW has with the NBA guys, mainly Lebron. None of that has anything at all to do with Duke Basketball or Duke recruits. The statement that "K is dealing with street agents" really did not make sense to me, so not sure what that would even mean. I assume all coaches have relationships with numerous agents, and assist their players with agent selection once their college careers come to an end. Maybe you meant agent "runners", but again, I think there is a better chance of Hell having ice, and Mars having humans, than K dealing with runners.

Wheat is usually reasonable - here he is just making stuff up. Sad.

[CDu]

I wonder how these same anonymous coaches "opinions" will be received around here when another crapola article is written focusing on shady recruiting...and then an anonymous coach points out that Coach K is buddying up with "World Wide Wes" at the Olympic games as evidence that coach K is dealing with street agents.


Of course it would be crap to suggest coach K is shady, but UNC fans could have a field day putting Coach K and Calipari in the same sand box from an article like that.

That's just what we get with these kinds of offseason articles. All crap. They are just meant to stir the pot.

Oh, Wheat, bless your bad-comprehension-or-poor-attempt-at-trolling heart. No coach said Coach K is buddying up with World Wide Wes. That is a fabrication of a spin of a spin. The CBS writer simply noted that Coach K allowed WWW to have contact with the players on the USA team. Surely you can understand that distinction, right? That is, in NO way, comparable to a poll of actual coaches with actual quotes from said coaches that listed Williams as most overrated.

[miramar]

Several people have noted that Barnes is a much worse coach than Williams, but he's not overrated because by now he doesn't have much of a reputation to begin with.

If the question had been "Who gets less out of his recruits?" or "Who's the most overpaid" then I think that Barnes would have been #1 and Howland #2.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Doesn't it bother you that Roy's peers think he's the most overrated coach?

No. The whole premise smacks of jealousy to me. I would be more concerned if these coaches could actually beat him.

[flyingdutchdevil]

No. The whole premise smacks of jealousy to me. I would be more concerned if these coaches could actually beat him.

In Wheat's defense, if Coach K was on that list, wouldn't our response be the exact same?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Oh, Wheat, bless your bad-comprehension-or-poor-attempt-at-trolling heart. No coach said Coach K is buddying up with World Wide Wes. That is a fabrication of a spin of a spin.

You may want to look in the mirror here.

Where did I say a coach said that? It was a hypothetical statement meant to show how one of these articles could be written to draw a reaction and page views, and that they are crap.

The link was attached simply to show that WWW is hanging around coach K, which could lend some credibility to a potential crock 'o crap article like that...if one was written.

[UrinalCake]

I suspect the debacle that was the 2010 season hurt him pretty badly on this score. That was a very young team, with a litany of injuries, but the feeling even among many Carolina faithful was that K could have made the (NCAA) tournament with that squad. Absent that season, all Roy's ever done is win. With that season, you can argue Roy's never won without overwhelming talent.

I hate to say it but if you take 2010 out of the equation then Coach K's tournament performances in the past decade don't look so hot. I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.

They were talking about Roy on the local radio talk show yesterday afternoon and concluded that the coaches in this poll were mostly just jealous of Roy because he was handed the keys to UNC and didn't have to work as hard to get there. Coaches at smaller schools with less resources all feel like they could do just as good a job if they were put in his position, so they resent the way the media gushes over Roy's success. I think this has some merit, but again that's not to say that Roy isn't a good coach.

[CDu]

You may want to look in the mirror here.

Where did I say a coach said that? It was a hypothetical statement meant to show how one of these articles could be written to draw a reaction and page views, and that they are crap.

The link was attached simply to show that WWW is hanging around coach K, which could lend some credibility to a potential crock 'o crap article like that...if one was written.

The difference is that your hypothetical requires a fabrication of facts AND some serious spin. The actual article mentioned was a poll of coaches on a specific question. QUITE difference. That's what I was saying about your either comprehension or trolling. You created a MUCH different scenario than the one presented in this article. Your example really would be crapola. This is just insight into what the coaches think of the other coaches. Very different.

And this is coming from someone who agrees that the subjective poll doesn't mean anything. It's just interesting to see that other coaches share a similar view as us Duke fans when it comes to Williams' coaching chops.

[CDu]

I hate to say it but if you take 2010 out of the equation then Coach K's tournament performances in the past decade don't look so hot. I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.

Sure. If this poll was taken in 2009, Coach K would very likely have been on the list. But the 2010 season happened.

They were talking about Roy on the local radio talk show yesterday afternoon and concluded that the coaches in this poll were mostly just jealous of Roy because he was handed the keys to UNC and didn't have to work as hard to get there. Coaches at smaller schools with less resources all feel like they could do just as good a job if they were put in his position, so they resent the way the media gushes over Roy's success. I think this has some merit, but again that's not to say that Roy isn't a good coach.

There absolutely is jealousy involved. Almost any coach would love to be handed the keys to two of the greatest programs in history without having any prior head coaching experience. But again, this wasn't a poll of "whom other coaches think is a good/bad coach." It was a poll of "whom other coaches think is an overrated/underrated coach." Those coaches simply think Williams' reputation exceeds his coaching ability - not that he isn't a good coach.

[Kedsy]

I guess you could argue that he overachieved during the season, but he's never overachieved in the postseason relative to his talent except for 2010.

I would argue we overachieved in the post-season relative to our talent in 1988, 1990, 1991*, 1994, and 2010.


* in 1991, the team obviously had talent, but it was unproven and did not look like a national championship team during the season. Plus they had to beat UNLV. I'd say we overachieved that year.

[OldPhiKap]

I would argue we overachieved in the post-season relative to our talent in 1988, 1990, 1991*, 1994, and 2010.


* in 1991, the team obviously had talent, but it was unproven and did not look like a national championship team during the season. Plus they had to beat UNLV. I'd say we overachieved that year.

You could add 1993 to that list as well, given what we lost after 1992.