Other College Basketball coaches think Roy Williams is overrated

[Wander]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...in-the-country

[CDu]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...in-the-country

Awesome. Couldn't agree more. Williams has merely shown to be good at recruiting under historically great programs with fairly recent big names (Manning at Kansas, all of the UNC guys Dean Smith brought in at UNC). I love the first quote: "He's won at Kansas and UNC. But who couldn't do that ... besides Matt Doherty?"

Successfully bashing two UNC guys with one quote. Fantastic.

[lotusland]

I'm surprised Amaker is on the lisat and Coach K isn't. The first requirement for being overrated is to be highly rated so I would have expected K to get some backlash if for no other reason than resentment at the amount of publicity he gets especially now that he is the winningest coach. On the other hand how can you take Harvard to the dance and be overrated?

[CDu]

I'm surprised Amaker is on the lisat and Coach K isn't. The first requirement for being overrated is to be highly rated so I would have expected K to get some backlash if for no other reason than resentment at the amount of publicity he gets especially now that he is the winningest coach. On the other hand how can you take Harvard to the dance and be overrated?

I, too, am surprised that Coach K didn't make the list. The arguments that folks accept are:
1. Coach K basically built Duke to what it is today (we had a decent basketball history when he arrived; now we're on the short list of absolute best ever)
2. Coach K has done more with "similar" Olympic talent than some other coaches did (though I think this is as much Colangelo's approach as it is Coach K)

That said, I'm glad he isn't on the list.

[UrinalCake]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

[Duvall]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

The problem with Barnes is that you have to be rated before you can be overrated.

[lotusland]

The problem with Barnes is that you have to be rated before you can be overrated.

I have a soft spot for Barnes because of how much Carolina fans hated Clemson when he was there. I thought he did a pretty good job at Clemson but I agree that his teams at UT have under-perforned.

[flyingdutchdevil]

For the record, I don't like Roy Williams. I find him overly arrogant, overly whinny, and overly annoying. But to say that he is the most overrated coach out there is a stretch. He has won 2 NCs in his tenor at UNC, which is fairly impressive. You can make the argument that any competent coach could have won with such amazing talent, but a) Roy helped to bring in talent (okay, not the first NC but certainly the second) and b) managed talent and egos fairly effectively (McCants may whine about RoyWill now, but McCants bought into RoyWill's system). He's clearly not the best X&Os coach, but - given the right situation (great PG, strong frontcourt), he succeeds.

Barnes, Wright, Drew, and Howland are significantly more overrated IMO.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm surprised Amaker is on the lisat and Coach K isn't. The first requirement for being overrated is to be highly rated so I would have expected K to get some backlash if for no other reason than resentment at the amount of publicity he gets especially now that he is the winningest coach. On the other hand how can you take Harvard to the dance and be overrated?

I'm only surprised that Amaker is on the list. If K were on it then the list would instantly lose credibility. K's proven himself time and time again, the argument (if there were one) ends there.
As for Amaker, here what someone said about him. To be fair, Tommy only got 4%, which means that out of the "nearly 100" coaches polled, only 4 of them threw his name in the hat.

On Tommy Amaker: "He had his shot against the big boys [at Michigan] and couldn't get anything done. And now he's a good coach? Because he won the Ivy League with way better players than everybody else? Come on."

Umm...he has way better players than everybody else because he recruited way better than everybody else. Last I checked, being able to recruit is a good sign that a coach is doing at least part of his job right. The other part is winning with the talent that you get, and he's doing that too. I think it's funny that Tommy is called out for having the talent (and winning) and Barnes is called out for having the talent and losing.

[DukieInBrasil]

I'm only surprised that Amaker is on the list. If K were on it then the list would instantly lose credibility. K's proven himself time and time again, the argument (if there were one) ends there.
As for Amaker, here what someone said about him. To be fair, Tommy only got 4%, which means that out of the "nearly 100" coaches polled, only 4 of them threw his name in the hat.

Umm...he has way better players than everybody else because he recruited way better than everybody else. Last I checked, being able to recruit is a good sign that a coach is doing at least part of his job right. The other part is winning with the talent that you get, and he's doing that too. I think it's funny that Tommy is called out for having the talent (and winning) and Barnes is called out for having the talent and losing.

Don't forget that a good chunk of Tommy's time in Ann Arbor was spent on probation brought on UM by their previous coach. So for someone to claim he couldn't get it done there is a bit disingenuous.

[hurleyfor3]

Yeah, Michigan was still mopping up the mess from the Fib Five when Amaker was there. (That was a typo, honest, but it's too good to edit.)

Also:

Basically, [Roy] said he still recruits hard because he thinks of himself as a good coach but not as a great coach, and that he never wants to have to find out if he's good enough to win with average players.

Oh, but we already know the answer to this. See 2010.

[cspan37421]

Don't forget that a good chunk of Tommy's time in Ann Arbor was spent on probation brought on UM by their previous coach. So for someone to claim he couldn't get it done there is a bit disingenuous.

It's true he didn't get it done ... but that's a half truth. He didn't get it done with an albatross around his neck. We'll probably never know how good he could have been there if he hadn't been handed a program on probation. We do know he was good at Seton Hall ... that's what got him the Michigan job. I bet he would have been competing for a Big Ten title most years if not for that burden.

[CDu]

For the record, I don't like Roy Williams. I find him overly arrogant, overly whinny, and overly annoying. But to say that he is the most overrated coach out there is a stretch. He has won 2 NCs in his tenor at UNC, which is fairly impressive. You can make the argument that any competent coach could have won with such amazing talent, but a) Roy helped to bring in talent (okay, not the first NC but certainly the second) and b) managed talent and egos fairly effectively (McCants may whine about RoyWill now, but McCants bought into RoyWill's system). He's clearly not the best X&Os coach, but - given the right situation (great PG, strong frontcourt), he succeeds.

Barnes, Wright, Drew, and Howland are significantly more overrated IMO.

Again, it's more a question of where those guys are actually rated. Williams may well be a better coach than those other guys. But most everyone THINKS Williams is better. So in a measure of who is overrated (rather than who is a better/worse coach), it's all relative to the perception.

I don't think anyone considers Barnes, Wright, Drew, or Howland among the best coach in the country. Many folks DO think that of Williams. So it's harder to say they're overrated.

[Edouble]

I am no fan of Roy, as I bleed Duke blue, but c'mon... the article says that he is overrated because anyone could win with his great players, then in the next paragraph goes on to say that Rick Barnes is overrated because he never does anything with the great players that he recruits! What a bunch of horse manure!

So, if I am reading the article correctly, besides Matt D'oherty, we can probably add Rick Barnes to the list of coaches that couldn't (theoretically) win at Carolina or Kansas. We could also add Bill Guthridge to that list. Guthridge was handed what was probably one of the best 3 Carolina teams in the last 20 years in 1998, and after that he recruited what was probably the worst Carolina team in the past 20 years, not extending a scholarship offer to Jason Williams because he already had Adam Boone locked up, if I am remembering correctly. Gut is an easy precedent to point to, to show that it does take work. Roy's done the work and has 2 NCs.

[CDu]

I am no fan of Roy, as I bleed Duke blue, but c'mon... the article says that he is overrated because anyone could win with his great players, then in the next paragraph goes on to say that Rick Barnes is overrated because he never does anything with the great players that he recruits! What a bunch of horsesh*t!

So, if I am reading the article correctly, besides Matt D'oherty, we can probably add Rick Barnes to the list of coaches that couldn't (theoretically) win at Carolina or Kansas. We could also add Bill Guthridge to that list. Guthridge was handed what was probably one of the best 3 Carolina teams in the last 20 years in 1998, and after that he recruited what was probably the worst Carolina team in the past 20 years, not extending a scholarship offer to Jason Williams because he already had Adam Boone locked up, if I am remembering correctly. Gut is an easy precedent to point to, to show that it does take work. Roy's done the work and has 2 NCs.

First of all, those are selected quotes from various coaches - not the rationale for a particular rating. The results are based on an actual poll of coaches. So the apparent inconsistency isn't evidence of B.S. It's just selected evidence of what two different coaches happened to say about those two coaches.

Second, this is a poll asking folks to make a subjective judgement on a nebulous concept of "rating" and "ability" and "what defines a good coach." As such, there's nothing necessarily logically incorrect about saying that Barnes is overrated because can't win with great players and Williams is overrated because he has only coached in perfect situations. Barnes can be a worse coach than Williams and not be as overrated as Williams. In that scenario, then it is a question of the difference between skill and perceived rating. Not just a measure of skill.

But the big point is that this is ENTIRELY subjective. There is no such thing as a wrong answer.

[hurleyfor3]

People! Roy shows up at the top of a "who sucks the most" list. Do we really need to get all analytical?

[devildeac]

As much as I love to dog on Williams, I would actually put Barnes ahead of him on this list. At least Roy has won - two titles in less than a decade, a Final 4 contender almost every year. You can pass it off as "anyone can win there," but you still have to actually do it. Barnes has great resources at Texas and has brought in great players but hasn't done much of anything.

Barnes? Overrated?

Oh, you meant Rick Barnes.

[Edouble]

But the big point is that this is ENTIRELY subjective. There is no such thing as a wrong answer.

HA! Of course there is! A wrong answer IS possible. Opinions are fallible.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

Roy Williams is one of the top coaches in the game by any reasonable measurement of his career compared to any other coach out there.

[wilko]

Ok, move along now, nothing to see here....just a another bit of media off-season crapola.

Roy Williams is one of the top coaches in the game by any reasonable measurement of his career compared to any other coach out there.

Perhaps... but this IS a whole lotta fun.