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  1. #1
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    NFL [replacement] Refs

    I think we reached the tipping point tonight in the Baltimore-New England game. The announcers were biting their lips as much as they could but they just kept on talking about the refs. The officiating was uneven and seemed almost random at times. There is no question that the refs played a significant role in determining the outcome of the game. Heck, there were 11 first downs by penalty, many of them at huge moments in the game. The "Bronx cheers" from the Baltimore audience aimed at the refs at the end of the game were loud and clearly audible. There wasn't a single person in that crowd not chanting and showing their disgust at the officials.

    There is an old saying -- a ref's job is NOT TO BE NOTICED. The way to know a well-officiated contest is when you do not talk about the officiating. It is as simple as that. By that standard, the replacement refs are failing miserably.

    The games are not just poorly officiated, they are running long and suffering through extra delays as a result of the refs inexperience and lack of understanding of all the rules.

    The NFL is the richest pro sports league in the world. Its franchises are more valuable than many publicly traded companies. The teams play just a 16 game regular season, meaning that one ref-mistake that changes the outcome of a game could have a huge impact on a team's entire season. Making the playoffs or missing can be worth tens of millions to a team. And yet the NFL continues to use these badly deficient replacement refs.

    This.
    Must.
    Stop.

    And there is a simple solution. In most other management vs union dispute, other unions honor the picket lines of the striking workers. When the flight attendants go on strike for an airline, the pilots refuse to fly. The NFL Players Association sent a letter to the NFL today calling for the league to resolve the referee lockout and pointing out that player safety is at issue here, in addition to the integrity of the game. But, if the NFLPA really wants to end this, it simply announces that the players will not play any more games with replacement refs. That is all it would take. The players refuse to play and the NFL would resolve their differences with the refs in a matter of hours, I bet.

    My bet is that there is some clause in the NFLPA-NFL collective bargaining agreement that prevents this from happening. But, the "safety of the players" concern that was voiced by the union today may give them some leeway, especially in the important court of public opinion, to take an even stronger stand in backing the refs.

    Look, all I know is that something needs to be done. The NFL is playing with fire by continuing to use these bad replacement refs. I think the league is already getting burned, the only question is whether this will only be a singe or a full-on forest fire before the NFL comes to its senses and puts the right referees back in place.

    -Jason "anyone want to defend the NFL in this dispute? I thought not" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  2. #2
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    JE - you are 100% correct, and the players should do it.

    The game was the worst officiated I've ever seen, at any level. There was a phantom holding call on Baltimore when they would have faced 3rd and 15, when the NE guy literally never touched the guy. Not once. I still can't believe it. And throughout the game, there were so many holds by Baltimore (holding by their offensive line, Ray Rice holding Gronk as he tried to run through the middle, Rice holding Woodhead. I mean, it was just stunning. There is no doubt at all, that the refs cost the Patriots that game. No doubt. Normally as a team you can say, "well, it shouldn't have come to that" but for NE, I can't see, really, what they could have done differently. There were numerous first downs given to Baltimore from awful calls.

    The NFL refs will be back this weekend. That's a certainty.

  3. #3
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    Feb 2007
    People are still watching, so the NFL doesn't have to do a thing.

  4. #4
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    How much of this is actuallly bad officiating and how much of it is hype? When broadcasters admit you can call holding on every play and then show calls made by the replacements it seems to me they are attempting to fan the flames of discontent. I watched the Dallas game and saw the hit Romo took in the pocket today. It looks similar to numerous hits I saw last year that weren't flagged. These are bang, bang plays and can easily be missed, but rest assured hits such as the one Romo took will be dealt with by the league and a fine will be levied.

    Now all of this talk has certainly made the players a lot bolder as I saw several of them being excessively aggressive with their verbal complaints to the refs and the coaches are even worse. Again, are these refs that bad or are we seeing the results of the hype?

    I'm really not sure why the league is so set against paying refs enough money to make this a fulltime job, but the money can't be that significant for a league that is raking in money hand over fist. So no I can't defend the NFL on this, but I do question the complaints about the refs. I think it's something thats taken on a life of it's own and the snowball effect will eventually result in a settlement.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    People are still watching, so the NFL doesn't have to do a thing.
    This. Steve Young made this point last week. Barring player strike or a gambling scandal with a replacement ref, there isn't a ton of incentive for the NFL to move. PR doesn't matter to them so long as ratings continue to come through.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    JE - you are 100% correct, and the players should do it.

    The game was the worst officiated I've ever seen, at any level. There was a phantom holding call on Baltimore when they would have faced 3rd and 15, when the NE guy literally never touched the guy. Not once. I still can't believe it. And throughout the game, there were so many holds by Baltimore (holding by their offensive line, Ray Rice holding Gronk as he tried to run through the middle, Rice holding Woodhead. I mean, it was just stunning. There is no doubt at all, that the refs cost the Patriots that game. No doubt. Normally as a team you can say, "well, it shouldn't have come to that" but for NE, I can't see, really, what they could have done differently. There were numerous first downs given to Baltimore from awful calls.

    The NFL refs will be back this weekend. That's a certainty.
    I don't disagree with the conclusion, but I do disagree with the contention that the officials cost the Pats the game. They were terrible both ways. For all the missed calls you cite that hurt the Pats, there are similar, if not identical examples that benefitted the Pats.

    The officiating was comically bad, and something needs to be done about it -- although we should all know at this point that Roger Goodell and the owners to which he answers are the greediest men in sports by a wide margin an as a result I'm not holding my breath -- but it didn't cost the Pats the game. It destroyed the quality of what Gould have been a good game.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    I don't disagree with the conclusion, but I do disagree with the contention that the officials cost the Pats the game. They were terrible both ways. For all the missed calls you cite that hurt the Pats, there are similar, if not identical examples that benefitted the Pats.

    The officiating was comically bad, and something needs to be done about it -- although we should all know at this point that Roger Goodell and the owners to which he answers are the greediest men in sports by a wide margin an as a result I'm not holding my breath -- but it didn't cost the Pats the game. It destroyed the quality of what Gould have been a good game.
    The officiating is comically bad and after all, this is an entertainment industry so perhaps this is just another twist. When your team isn't playing, it is fun to watch these guys try to fumble their way through a game. As far as individual games, while the game might be riddled with bad calls, I'm sure Kraft feels that the refs cost him this game or Bisciotti felt that the refs cost him the game versus the Eagles. So while all the games seem riddled with bad calls, the owners will perceive some as costing their team victory/money and they will probably be the ones to eventually cave as a result of this. And we honestly can't know who'd win b/c the way the game has been called has evolved so much that it will probably take several weeks to get back to how the old refs call the game.

  8. #8
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    I read somewhere last week that the amount of money that it would take the owners to fund the refs' pensions for next year at the level the refs are seeking -- and it sounds like the pensions is the big issue, really, moreso than annual salaries -- is $3 million. That's just for next year, but still. When you look at the size of the TV contracts, the value of the franchises, and the like, it's hard to believe the owners would let the integrity of the game be threatened like it is over $3 million. The owners have that between the cushions of their proverbial sofas.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I read somewhere last week that the amount of money that it would take the owners to fund the refs' pensions for next year at the level the refs are seeking -- and it sounds like the pensions is the big issue, really, moreso than annual salaries -- is $3 million. That's just for next year, but still. When you look at the size of the TV contracts, the value of the franchises, and the like, it's hard to believe the owners would let the integrity of the game be threatened like it is over $3 million. The owners have that between the cushions of their proverbial sofas.
    A million here, a million there, pretty soon you are talking about REAL money...

  10. #10
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    Is it true that the NFL refs want parity with the other pro league refs and umps? Why? It almost seems that the NFL guys are out of line. They only do 16 games a season while the baseball umps do 162, and the NBA guys do, what? 82 games? To me, parity means getting paid about the same for each game. OTOH, the owners as a group remain quite greedy. Let's see what the players do, if anything. The replacements do need to go, though.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    It destroyed the quality of what Gould have been a good game.
    By the grace of Gould?

    devil_and_max_devlin001-730x365.jpg

  12. #12
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    To me it's not so much the bad calls, it's the safety of the players. Romo was a victim of a clear helmet to helmet hit that I thought nearly killed him for a second - nothing called. Then Heyward-Bey from Oakland was launched into by Ryan Mundy where he lied motionless for 11 minutes - again, no call. Add to that the skirmishes that seem to go on a LOT longer than normal and things just don't seem real safe out there.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    I watched the Dallas game and saw the hit Romo took in the pocket today. It looks similar to numerous hits I saw last year that weren't flagged.
    I'm sympathetic to this point of view. Confirmation bias is a powerful thing. I'm not saying the officials haven't been worse - it does seem to me like delays are a little more frequent on average - but I'd like to see some actual evidence or numbers showing that. And I don't think it's so atrociously horrible that it's ruining the season.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    I'm really not sure why the league is so set against paying refs enough money to make this a fulltime job, but the money can't be that significant for a league that is raking in money hand over fist. So no I can't defend the NFL on this, but I do question the complaints about the refs. I think it's something thats taken on a life of it's own and the snowball effect will eventually result in a settlement.
    We've been debating this in the Redskins thread. A mod should really move those posts over here. Part of the problem is no one seems to know how much refs actually make. Some articles claim veteran refs make $150k a year. Others say $70k. If you google nfl ref salary 2012, the top ten returns give eight different figures. So, assuming they make $150k (for 1-2 days a week, 6 months a year) just for fun, do you consider that a decent full time job salary? The average of the two figures is $110k. If that's true, how about that figure? Heck, I personally know a TON of people that would jump for joy at the prospect of making $70k for working 40 hour work weeks, 52 weeks a year, let alone for working about 40 days a year spread over 6 months. $70k is the minimum number I've seen for vet refs. Is that a decent salary?

    Now, according to some google articles, vet NBA and MLB officials make up to or even over $200-300k. I've seen arguments complaining about how much more other officials make compared to NFL refs. Do NFL refs deserve the same pay as officials who work 5-10x as many days and rarely if ever see their homes 7-8 months a year? You can't go home really if you are calling 3-4 games a week.

    Yes, everyone agrees the owners are greedy. Some think they are flatout evil. Most say they should pay the refs whatever they want to end this, because heck, they have enough. Hey, every company that makes a profit can AFFORD to pay their employees more. Look at what the oil companies are making. They LAUGH at the NFL. They've had congressional meetings to berate them for price gouging based on how much they charge when they're making so much. Do all of their employees deserve to make $500k a year, just cause they can afford it? What about fair pay for fair work? My real question? How can we debate this fairly when we really don't even know how much the officials currently make? Does anyone here have a way to DEFINITIVELY figure out what the refs actually make now?
    Last edited by bjornolf; 09-24-2012 at 10:25 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    How much of this is actuallly bad officiating and how much of it is hype? When broadcasters admit you can call holding on every play and then show calls made by the replacements it seems to me they are attempting to fan the flames of discontent. I watched the Dallas game and saw the hit Romo took in the pocket today. It looks similar to numerous hits I saw last year that weren't flagged. These are bang, bang plays and can easily be missed, but rest assured hits such as the one Romo took will be dealt with by the league and a fine will be levied.

    OK - you can't be serious here, right? The issue here isn't just the stuff they are screwing up (there are a ton of things), or their lack of knowledge on the rules...it's the stuff they are not calling. The defensive players are doing stuff they know they will get away with. Grabbing and clutching guys as they come off the line. Last night both the Ravens and Patriots were doing it (with the Ravens doing a much better job of this, by the way, especially Ray Lewis on Gronk). It's the vicious hits that are going uncalled. Heyward-Bey for the Raiders got nailed in the end zone in one of the most brutal helmet to helmet calls I've ever seen, and there was no flag. The guy who hit him should have been flagged and thrown from the game. Period. On almost ever single offensive play I see what looks to be a hold, and there are no flags.

    Look, the players are doing what anyone would do here, they are pushing the boundaries. They figure the refs can't call everything, and won't call everything, and aren't that good anyway. It's like the Big East in basketball - foul all the time, and they won't possibly call it.

    But the true NFL refs wouldn't let them get away with it. No way.

    And it's affecting the results. Look at game times - nearly 20 minutes longer than last year. That's incredible.

    And I disagree with you about the Patriots...that phantom defensive holding absolutely cost the Patriots the game. It took away a 3rd and 12 and gave them a first down. Then there was a sack later that got called back with another terrible call. Then Jones pushed off in the endzone to get free for his TD. Then another Ravens receiver on their last drive pushed the defender down the field for separation and got no call. Any of those calls are made (and the real refs would have made them all, or not made the bad ones), and the Patriots win.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornolf View Post
    We've been debating this in the Redskins thread. A mod should really move those posts over here.

    ...
    If we were to merge those posts into this thread, they'd be inserted chronologically, and make this thread unreadable.

    Best to leave those posts be, and pull the ideas from that thread and add them as new posts here.

    -jk

  17. #17
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    Feb 2007
    I'm not siding with the NFL by any means, but I see the primary problem (also articulated by some sports writers) is that neither the NFL coaches or players have any respect for the replacement refs.

    Some of the locked out refs have indicated it took years to properly learn the NFL rulebook, and the replacement refs had <60 days. Expecting them to do a great job is unrealistic, but I find it disgraceful how the players and coaches are treating the replacement refs.

    You might as well not have refs given the way the players are taking advantage- some of the hits yesterday looked not only dangerous but potentially crippling.

  18. #18
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    A decade or so ago, my father was friends with a man who was a NFL referee. The notion that the refs work one day a week is laughable. They are required by the league to fill out all kinds of paperwork, to constantly take quizzes and classes on the rules, to participate in conference calls to discuss their performance, to review film of past games and upcoming assignments, and tons of other stuff outside the 3 hours in which the game is played. My father's friend said it was about 30 hours a week, sometimes more... plus travel time (which often tacked another 5-10 hours onto the work load each week)

    And here is something else to consider -- what kind of other job can they have to supplement their income? From week to week, they do not know what days they will be working -- Sunday, Monday, Thursday, sometimes Saturday. The league requires them to travel to the location the day before the game and, especially if they are working a Monday/Thurs/Sun night game, they don't travel back home until the next day. So, whatever other job they might have needs to be incredibly flexible to accommodate the referee's crazy schedule. And, if they were in another job that required them to work Monday through Friday, the extra time required to be a ref would force them to work 7 days a week. Try that 4 or 5 weeks in a row without losing your mind!

    Look, no estimate of NFL ref salary has these guys becoming incredibly wealthy from doing this job. Most folks seem to say that the top refs, the senior ones who have been doing this for decade, are making something like $150 or $200k. Hey, that is a very nice income, but it is not like they are rolling in the dough at that level, buying fancy cars and expensive bling (ooops, too soon?). And we are talking about guys at the peak of their profession. In most other professions, if you reach the epitome like this, you would be doing better than $200k/year.

    The ref my father knew was able to turn his referee work into ancillary income by being a motivational speaker. He would do corporate events and was marketed as a NFL official, which was obviously good for business. But, I think he was an outlier. Most of the other officials are not able to find careers like that which so easily compliment their referee duties. He was also a head official, one of the guys you see on TV. I doubt the guys you never hear about -- like the back judge or the side judge -- would be able to do the same kind of thing.

    If, as some seem to be reporting, the dispute is over a few million dollars, that is a crime. Lets even say that the dispute is over $10 million dollars. Divided up among the NFL's 32 teams that comes to $312,000 per team. Are you kidding me?!?! I bet NFL teams make that much from just parking cars at the stadium each week!

    Get it done... get the real refs back!

    -Jason "ESPN has, predictably, been all over the ref controversy this morning" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    Some of the locked out refs have indicated it took years to properly learn the NFL rulebook, and the replacement refs had <60 days. Expecting them to do a great job is unrealistic, but I find it disgraceful how the players and coaches are treating the replacement refs.

    You might as well not have refs given the way the players are taking advantage- some of the hits yesterday looked not only dangerous but potentially crippling.
    You disclaimed this statement by saying "I'm not siding with the NFL by any means...", but this seems like a strong argument for the regular refs, in addition to being a (proper, in my mind) chastisement for replacement ref bashing.

  20. #20
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    Oh, you all have got to read this article and watch the attached video. It is awesome!

    On the opening kickoff of the 49ers-Vikings game, the refs call the 49ers for illegal block in the back... except the 49ers were the kicking team. There is no such thing as an illegal block on the team that is kicking the ball and therefore on defense. After 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh goes crazy, the refs realize their mistake and pick up the flag. Are you kidding me?!?!

    Later, Harbaugh cons the ref out of extra timeouts and challenges, because the refs apparently did not understand how the NFL challenge system works. It is all right there on the video.

    This is embarrassing to the league... if they actually care enough to be embarrassed.

    -Jason "it would be funny if it was not just pathetic" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

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