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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    This point - surely someone over there believes in academic integrity - is very important to me, too. Wanting the Heels to Go to Hell in basketball, I don't want this excellent university to become an academic laughingstock. I've posted in a previous thread my hope that some on the faculty would come forth.

    OTOH, others are still blowing smokescreens: "Top leaders at UNC-CH and the UNC system, however, say athletics weren’t at the heart of the academic fraud, because nonathletes were in the suspect classes," This assertion does not pass the laugh test. While I'm certain the vast majority of UNC faculty members know this, I wait for them to speak, firmly and forthrightly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewlswim View Post
    As much as I hate the tar heels on the court, I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Wouldn't bother me in the slightest Kewl. If they cheated, hang 'em high.
    Duke is subjected to stringent and serious standards, observation and endless criticism. You can bet the farm that if Duke tried to pull the baloney that's going on at the hole in the mound, Duke would be dipped and fried in a strange batter....To hell with the hole in the mound.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    i'm not seeing the down side here....
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    Count me in as well.... I used to pull for the ACC as a whole, but that was before the whole Duke Hate thing began. I cannot pinpoint the time, but it was late 90's maybe. When it seemed like the ACC turned its back on Duke, then the rest of the country, and for what being successful and NOT cheating.

    Well I hope they find so much cheating and cover-up at UNC that it makes National Headlines and lead stories on the network news.

    This goes against my grain in a way since I am not typically a vengeful type, but I am fed up with UNC and their Holier than Thou "Carolina Way" B.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I'd love to see UNC@CH brought to it's knees because of this issue. They have been caught cheating....AGAIN. Their fans are annoying and outnumber Duke fans 1000 to 1 in this state.
    These posts represent a "theme" [??] on EK: the intensity-levels of hatred of Carolina. Although Kewlswim is in no way responsible for my analysis here, the first 2 tag quotes represent a kind of soft hatred of Heeldom, whereas the last 4 represent something more severe.

    Not the first time I've seen this, and I've tentatively concluded these hatred-intensity-levels are probably a function of proximity to Heel fans. Because I have almost no interaction with the "Carolina Way," I hate 'em only in a generic sense. For me, it's intense enough. as it's arguably the most intense rivalry in American sports. But I experience the intensity only from afar, whereas many EK posters deal with it up close and personally.

    And I "understand" this, conceptually, because it's easy enough to see that living among so many Heels would be highly irritating. Admittedly however, those of us who do not have to put up with Carolina-Way-Crap on a daily/weekly basis actually don't fully understand it, because we don't live in it.

    So, understanding that I probably can't fully understand because I don't live the intensity, I acknowledge the correctness [??] of the "no down side here" viewpoint. [Not that any of you - nor the many other EK posters so inclined - need my approval.] Further, as I've said in several posts, the continued silence of most UNC faculty - in view of the fact that their own colleagues have been undermined, and in the face of statements that do not pass the laugh test - inclines me to move toward the conclusion that this great institution isn't so great these days.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nepos View Post
    - Not sure which school's alums would win an arrogance contest, but both would certainly qualify for the national tournament each year.
    there IS a difference though......very simply put.

    duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that.....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

    there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance....
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  3. #23
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    SoCal

    Duke fan in Cali would opine that...

    The UNC arrogance is everywhere. There are very few Duke fans out here in SoCal, at least in my circles. I know of one, a student of mine, great kid who graduated and will hopefully make it through college. It was enjoyable to watch him mature as a fan under my tutelage. The UNC fans here? Just as "entitled" as the ones in NC. All I heard this year was how "Marshall's injury" and "those thugs at Creighton (?)" robbed them.

    I wrote initially a very long essay on my aunt and uncle, both graduates, but realized it was a lot of anger at them as much as it was UNC arrogance. It is, because of the way they and other fans act. Transitive property and all that. Suffice it to say that once I was old enough to watch and really get B-ball, and decided I liked Duke better, then it has ALWAYS been a bone of contention in my family, and my "standing" with the two of them has plummeted. Never speak first at family gatherings, never ask how I'm doing until there is NOTHING else to talk about, etc.

    Without going too much more into it, unless you ask, it is highly true of the arrogance of their graduates that I have met or known. I would hesitate to even BRING UP this mess to my family, for the sheer fact of the "poking the bear" rather than creating a serious discussion. They still see me as pulling for Duke as a form of betrayal, which I now wear PROUDLY!

    So to hell with the Holes, and down with the whole place!

  4. #24
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    Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by gumbomoop View Post
    These posts represent a "theme" [??] on EK: the intensity-levels of hatred of Carolina. Although Kewlswim is in no way responsible for my analysis here, the first 2 tag quotes represent a kind of soft hatred of Heeldom, whereas the last 4 represent something more severe.

    Not the first time I've seen this, and I've tentatively concluded these hatred-intensity-levels are probably a function of proximity to Heel fans. Because I have almost no interaction with the "Carolina Way," I hate 'em only in a generic sense. For me, it's intense enough. as it's arguably the most intense rivalry in American sports. But I experience the intensity only from afar, whereas many EK posters deal with it up close and personally.

    And I "understand" this, conceptually, because it's easy enough to see that living among so many Heels would be highly irritating. Admittedly however, those of us who do not have to put up with Carolina-Way-Crap on a daily/weekly basis actually don't fully understand it, because we don't live in it.

    So, understanding that I probably can't fully understand because I don't live the intensity, I acknowledge the correctness [??] of the "no down side here" viewpoint. [Not that any of you - nor the many other EK posters so inclined - need my approval.] Further, as I've said in several posts, the continued silence of most UNC faculty - in view of the fact that their own colleagues have been undermined, and in the face of statements that do not pass the laugh test - inclines me to move toward the conclusion that this great institution isn't so great these days.
    Well, there's also the feeling that the big ol' state university down the road has been beating us regularly in football, but has had to resort to using players either channeled into "classes" expressly created to keep them eligible, or that they just decided to attend on their own. Why should those less-than-honest Tar Heels get to ring that Victory Bell (unless they call it the "Cheaters Bell")?

    I say that if UNC can't beat us fair and square, then they need to finally "man up" and take some serious punishment that they apparently deserve. And that goes for any other cheatin', lyin', and ill-begotten-gainin' institutions out there.

    Is that really harsh? I don't think so.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    there IS a difference though......very simply put.

    duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that.....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

    there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance....
    I get it, and see that there is some truth to this distinction (though there are tons of UNC bball fans that fall into your first category, and tons of Duke fans that fall into your second category).

    On the other hand, you may see the kernel of truth in the following statement (heard on the streets of CH):

    UNC fans WANT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes, Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes. There's arrogance, and then there's Duke arrogance.

    To me, both sets of fans are pretty darn arrogant about their basketball and their academics -- probably because both schools have been highly successful in both areas. To me, both sets of fans would be wise to acknowledge that some of their strength in these areas is due to the strength of their neighbors. I suggest that UNC's current academic fiasco does nothing to help Duke, and arguably hurts Duke.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    there IS a difference though......very simply put.

    duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that.....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

    there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance....

    I think this is an argument that most of the country looks at, and says "they deserve each other."

    We may have a different type of arrogance, but we've got the tank full too.



    We have many great attributes. Humility is not one of them.
    Twerp-free since July 1, 2014.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post


    We have many great attributes. Humility is not one of them.
    Fact. Listen, anyone who thinks that these fan bases are distinctly different are sadly mistaken. Yes, there are probably more UNC fans than Duke fans, but the fact is that the demographics of both groups are remarkably similar across the state.

    The only difference is the shade of Blue they are rooting for. That's it. You're not talking about Kentucky fans who openly admit to not caring about how dirty Cal is... you're talking about UNC fans. They hate K, some with begrudging admiration. We hate Dean, some with begrudging admiration. Everyone hates Roy... true, really.
    WWJDD?

  8. #28
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    Fact. Listen, anyone who thinks that these fan bases are distinctly different are sadly mistaken. Yes, there are probably more UNC fans than Duke fans, but the fact is that the demographics of both groups are remarkably similar across the state.

    The only difference is the shade of Blue they are rooting for. That's it. You're not talking about Kentucky fans who openly admit to not caring about how dirty Cal is... you're talking about UNC fans. They hate K, some with begrudging admiration. We hate Dean, some with begrudging admiration. Everyone hates Roy... true, really.
    Did anyone else's mind immediately jump to Butch Davis? Seriously, I'm surprised they haven't erected a statue of him right on the 50 yard line. Will he be at the home games again this year?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nepos View Post
    On the other hand, you may see the kernel of truth in the following statement (heard on the streets of CH):

    UNC fans WANT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes, Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes. There's arrogance, and then there's Duke arrogance.
    I would instead word the second phrase as "Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be prototypical scholar-athletes". If that is true, then absence of perception is the problem of the perceptor. If this attitude makes me arrogant, so be it. I prefer to see it as a validation of the concept that a person accepted into college should be a student.

  10. #30
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    Fact. Listen, anyone who thinks that these fan bases are distinctly different are sadly mistaken. Yes, there are probably more UNC fans than Duke fans, but the fact is that the demographics of both groups are remarkably similar across the state.

    The only difference is the shade of Blue they are rooting for. That's it. You're not talking about Kentucky fans who openly admit to not caring about how dirty Cal is... you're talking about UNC fans. They hate K, some with begrudging admiration. We hate Dean, some with begrudging admiration. Everyone hates Roy... true, really.
    To me, there are two distinct differences. First UNC@CH fans hate Duke as much or more than they love their own team. Secondly, and more importantly, my main issue with the UNC@CH fans that I am confronted with every day isn't that they hate Duke it's that they give no credit or respect to ANY other basketball program. If they lose, it's not because the other team played well, it's because UNC messed up, of course. Austin Rivers didn't hit a great shot, Zeller played bad defense....he could have easily swatted that shot into the 4th row!

    I don't see that in Duke fans. Are some of us spoiled by success? Sure. Do some lack humility? Sure. But I don't nor have I ever gotten the sense that Duke fans have zero respect for any and every team without "DUKE" on their jersey.

    To get somewhat back on topic, I think it's interesting to watch how these issues get handled by UNC and by the local (UNC-lovin') media. Heck even by ESPN (also UNC-lovin'). Will UNC succeed in sweeping this under the rug? Are we going to see more 'resignations'? Is the NCAA going to hammer them? I don't know the answers but it's going to be fun finding out and I know which way I hope to see it go!

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    On a related tangent, I remember someone around here wrote a post a while back which kept a running tally of the various funny (and sad) "mini scandals" that have all been sequentially subsumed into this on-going, all-encompassing, super scandal. If I recall, it had a few good links too.

    Anybody care to find and/or update it? My search efforts keep coming up dry. And I have just a feeling there would be a few pitchforks in it for ya, whoever you might be.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  12. #32

    what am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post

    To get somewhat back on topic, I think it's interesting to watch how these issues get handled by UNC and by the local (UNC-lovin') media. Heck even by ESPN (also UNC-lovin'). Will UNC succeed in sweeping this under the rug? Are we going to see more 'resignations'? Is the NCAA going to hammer them? I don't know the answers but it's going to be fun finding out and I know which way I hope to see it go!
    The latest from Dan Kane reported that for 9 or so classes the listed instructor claimed they did not teach the class. That alone seems like enough to justify suspicions that there is fraud here, beyond any "lax" standards.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nepos View Post
    To me, both sets of fans are pretty darn arrogant about their basketball and their academics -- probably because both schools have been highly successful in both areas. To me, both sets of fans would be wise to acknowledge that some of their strength in these areas is due to the strength of their neighbors. I suggest that UNC's current academic fiasco does nothing to help Duke, and arguably hurts Duke.
    To be fair, I think it's possible to acknowledge that UNC's academic wrongdoing hurts both UNC and its rival institutions, and to believe that the best way to remedy that wrongdoing is for the full truth to be uncovered and for UNC to face the consequences of its actions, including punishments that would deter future misconduct.

  14. #34
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    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by Nepos View Post
    Some thoughts from a person with degrees from both schools,... humility is not a strength at either school. ...
    Amen. unc basketball players were more fluent in Swahili than any graduate of either school in humility. I simply believe, very strongly, Dukies have just cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I'd love to see UNC@CH brought to it's knees because of this issue. ...
    I hope the SBI treats unc like the unc frat boys treated Reggie Love when he over-indulged in chapel hill (I wonder how many of those good ol' boys have jobs in the current administration?)

  15. #35
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    On the couch
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    To be fair, I think it's possible to acknowledge that UNC's academic wrongdoing hurts both UNC and its rival institutions, and to believe that the best way to remedy that wrongdoing is for the full truth to be uncovered and for UNC to face the consequences of its actions, including punishments that would deter future misconduct.
    I am trying to make the connection on how UNC cheating reflects poorly on anyone other than UNC.... help me understand by explaining this a little more please, seriously, want to hear you out.

    When I talk of UNC arrogance, there are two different groups. One is the institutional arrogance the University has, which I have experienced up close and personal after graduating from there and then applying later for grad school.... you wouldn't (well maybe you would) believe how much they thought of their PharmD. program and how dare I bother them with an application one year out. Long story, but I was applying for a Navy program that required due to transfer, etc... a letter from a school just saying you met the requirements for acceptance into the class a year out from current one. I did NOT need a letter of acceptance, just a letter saying that I meet the requirements and would be considered. UNC couldn't be bothered by that, but I sure as heck got those alumni pleas for money every six months!! (BTW, went to Campbell for the PharmD., better people, better education!, nuff said).

    Second is the arrogance or rather irrationality of the average UNC fan. Now I have met some, but I must say VERY few irrational Duke fans, but MOST UNC fans I meet are irrational... you simply cannot have a rational discussion with them about anything related to basketball. Invariably they want to turn the conversation around to how they got hosed and Duke gets all the calls….

  16. #36
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    SC Lowcountry
    I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

    I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

    NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

    I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

    Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

    It's just ceaseless.

    I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

    Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jdj4duke View Post
    I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

    I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

    NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

    I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

    Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

    It's just ceaseless.

    I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

    Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.
    I have read your post and am confused. Why are you still in that family or attending family events?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jdj4duke View Post
    I have in my family a brother, a sister, a nephew, a brother-in-law, and a sister-in-law all with undergrad degrees from over yonder, and another nephew who is currently an undergrad. I have another sister and brother-in-law with postgrad degrees, and that particular bro'-in-law is from a family who have given untold riches to UNC, and who are lifetime Rams Clubbers. Sometimes I feel like the Kuwaiti army facing the Iragi invasion.

    I laughed at the post talking about being ostracized at family gatherings for being a Duke fan, since these Rams Clubbers at one holiday party told me that I should stay on the other side of the room since I went to Duke.They were dead serious. At least my brother-in-law even found that appalling and told his parents that they should not act so stupid.

    NONE of them though seems the least bit exercised over any of the academic questions and the most rabid of the group basically will not even admit to knowing about it. I find that preposterous (but probably not unusual) since every freaking piece of clothing in most of their wardrobes is that other blue. Therefore, I assume that the UNC faculty not rising in unison is really not surprising, since there has not and won't be any kind of hue and cry from the alums or the most ardent fans. Why would a French or history professor make a public fuss over what to even a casual observer appears to be some sort of academic shenanigans? I suppose from an inherent sense of outrage, ethics or responsibility, but that may not be enough shield from the ostracism certain to come from all parts of the university community. Bookish folks just ain't sportish folks, you know.

    I have for years been scrupulous about not provoking any of these sheep, and gave up in the 1980's ever mentioning a Duke win. I go out of my way to compliment how wonderful their teams and university are, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good. UNC wins, my phone lights up with all manner of nonsense. Duke wins, and it's because Dick Vitale called the game.

    Academic note or recognition for Duke? Never mind, since everyone there is from New York or New Jersey, and we are dweebs and the Duke girls are ugly anyway.

    It's just ceaseless.

    I also echo the comments about their lack of respect for ANY other team or university (think I posted something on this a while ago as well). Nothing is ever their fault, they were always cheated, somebody was hurt, the refs are paid off, the buffalo no longer roam the prairies, their socks were too thick, or the Italian trains were on strike. No other university has ever done anything worthy of note, acknowledgment, or positive comment. I am not sure how that DNA gets coded, but it's hard to miss the manifestations.

    Yeah, the Carolina Way is pretty amusing at the moment: dodge, deflect, blame voodoo, obfuscate, or ignore, but do it from a very high perch. Generally pride goeth before a fall and all that, but one would think that every now and then one of them would actually hit the ground.
    Excellent post, and a prime example of why I personally [post #21 in this thread] both "understand" what it must be like to be surrounded by the Carolina Way and yet have no clue as to what living with this crap is like.

    Your account - and those of other posters similarly situated - is an eye-opener. And I mean it.

    I'd pray for you, but as I am a Devil and God is, apparently, a Heel, it might not work. And I don't mean it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by jdj4duke View Post
    ...their socks were too thick...
    Ah, well, here we find a truly legitimate and well-reasoned excuse. Poor, poor thick sock-wearing heels. Just the imagery is enough to make one weep.

    How about another heart-warming tale: my mother-in-law refusing to put a Duke Grandparent sticker on her car when her grand-daughter (my niece) got in?
    Granny probably noticed my death stare combined with a pleasant rictus smile.

    Uh-oh, I sense this thread is about to get re-directed to the matter at hand.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Acymetric;584952]Did anyone else's mind immediately jump to Butch Davis? Seriously, I'm surprised they haven't erected a statue of him right on the 50 yard line. Will he be at the home games again this year?[/QUOTE]

    Yes he will be - his son recently accepted a football scholarship offer to attend UNC.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

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