More info on UNC academic scandal

[oldnavy]

Nice to see more info on this. The article makes lot of senses. Things do not add up. Teachers do not spend the time that it would take to teach 60 students one on one for nothing. If this was done correcctly, having taught residents before the amount of time involved would be astronomical if the student was expected to learn or even produce work. The time just to meet with the student, say 60 minutes once a week ... and this just doesn't make any sense at all. Either Nyang’oro is one of the most generious people of all time or something is rotten in Denmark.

Obviousluy UNC has no vested interest in getting to the truth (hmmmm wonder why). If matching up students to courses taken is difficult for UNC, then they actually have much larger prolems over there than this AFAM studies issues.

I think if the SBI stays interested in the whole mess we are going to discover a very interesting and perhaps intensive paper mill for athletes at the bottom of this pile of manure.

I thing the main questions is how interested will the SBI remain in this? This has now become a political affair and you all know how they can turn given the powers to be in the political seats of power.

[slower]

Ahem...you may want to spell check your title. Just sayin'.

[moonpie23]

it will get tossed around, raved about and then buried...


they're not gonna do anything to "the flagship"

[OldPhiKap]

it will get tossed around, raved about and then buried...


they're not gonna do anything to "the flagship"

As much as I dislike the Tar Heels, I have always thought that there are SOME over there that believe in institutional integrity and academic honesty. Surely, there are some voices over there that will want to get to the bottom of this.

[gumbomoop]

As much as I dislike the Tar Heels, I have always thought that there are SOME over there that believe in institutional integrity and academic honesty. Surely, there are some voices over there that will want to get to the bottom of this.

This point - surely someone over there believes in academic integrity - is very important to me, too. Wanting the Heels to Go to Hell in basketball, I don't want this excellent university to become an academic laughingstock. I've posted in a previous thread my hope that some on the faculty would come forth.

It seems a few have, publicly, for in the N/O article we read that "Willis Brooks and Jay Smith, two UNC-CH history professors ... are concerned about the case’s impact on the university’s academic integrity..." I'll guess more than a few have protested this scam behind the scenes, which is necessary but hardly sufficient. I have no idea exactly what faculty governance bodies have done, but they have to speak publicly, both to condemn the scam and defend other members of the department, several of whom were themselves defrauded [forged signatures, changed grades].

Another good sign: "Current and former UNC-CH officials say they can’t recall a worse case of academic fraud at the university, considered one of the nation’s top public schools."

OTOH, others are still blowing smokescreens: "Top leaders at UNC-CH and the UNC system, however, say athletics weren’t at the heart of the academic fraud, because nonathletes were in the suspect classes," This assertion does not pass the laugh test. While I'm certain the vast majority of UNC faculty members know this, I wait for them to speak, firmly and forthrightly.

[BD80]

... I wait for them to speak, firmly and forthrightly.

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[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Cover-ups usually end worse for the institution or individual than forthrightness. If there are shenanigans occurring at UNC the basketball department, athletic department, academic institution or any combination thereof they should come forward and tell the truth, take their medicine and move on...because if they don't and it turns into a "cover-up" scandal it will be even worse and potentially make a mountain out of something that could have been corrected with minimal pain.

As much as I hate the tar heels on the court, I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible. I also think this sort of thing is hurting Duke because people think the ACC is a hot bed for academic cheating. I was told, not that long ago, that the reason Cal-Berkeley can't get good basketball players is that at Cal they learn they have to go to class and at places like Duke (yes they guy said Duke and everyone around--except me--shook their heads in agreement) and others in the ACC academics for athletes is a joke. We all know this is false, but perception can be a strong thing and schools in our conference not living up to a high standard affects us all. By the way, I asked how many people were certain Duke kids weren't going to class and how they knew that was true? Nobody had an answer beyond the usual it is Duke baloney. Furthermore, I wonder if they weren't mixing Duke with Arizona State...those Devils were even involved in point shaving and, er um, are in the Pac 12 with Cal.

GO DUKE!

[weezie]

I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest Kewl. If they cheated, hang 'em high.
Duke is subjected to stringent and serious standards, observation and endless criticism. You can bet the farm that if Duke tried to pull the baloney that's going on at the hole in the mound, Duke would be dipped and fried in a strange batter, regardless of what a few whiners at, uh, cal-berkeley might be fantasizing. (And since when does anyone care what they think about sports? What do they play there, Varsity Dungeons and Dragons? Mixed Doubles Simcity?)

To hell with the hole in the mound.

[moonpie23]

Hi,



I don't want to see UNC-CH brought to its knees because some yahoos thought of a way to get around taking classes and bigger yahoos made it possible.

GO DUKE!

i'm not seeing the down side here...

[wilko]

i'm not seeing the down side here...

Me neither.

[oldnavy]

Me neither.

Count me in as well. (BTW, I cannot spell, never could, never will at this point in my life. The only time I care is when it is an important document and I don't consider anything I say on this board as important, but thanks for pointing it out).

Back to the point. I used to pull for the ACC as a whole, but that was before the whole Duke Hate thing began. I cannot pinpoint the time, but it was late 90's maybe. When it seemed like the ACC turned its back on Duke, then the rest of the country, and for what being successful and NOT cheating.

Well I hope they find so much cheating and cover-up at UNC that it makes National Headlines and lead stories on the network news.

This goes against my grain in a way since I am not typically a vengeful type, but I am fed up with UNC and their Holier than Thou "Carolina Way" B.S.

I am doubtful that much will come of this, UNC has a pretty good choke hold on the power structure in this state, so it may take an outsider to bust it open, like a Sports Illustrated or ESPN, or something equal... but that is doubtful as well given the cash cow UNC is to their companies, but it could happen.

But as far as caring for their reputation, I don’t, not even one tiny little bit.

I would love to see something happen that would humble that crowd, but for the life of me I cannot imagine anything that would humble that crowd…. Can anyone?

[moonpie23]

I would love to see something happen that would humble that crowd, but for the life of me I cannot imagine anything that would humble that crowd…. Can anyone?

vacate the 05 and 09...roy fired, thorpe fired, criminal indictments...some folks go to jail and all the wins from the beginning of those bogus courses vacated...football AND basketball.


might not "humble" them...but i'd say they would give them an H-U to start with...

[ForkFondler]

vacate the 05 and 09...roy fired, thorpe fired, criminal indictments...some folks go to jail and all the wins from the beginning of those bogus courses vacated...football AND basketball.


might not "humble" them...but i'd say they would give them an H-U to start with...

Vacate the Helms!!! Make them give up a trophy they didn't even win. That would hit 'em where it hurts.

[OldPhiKap]

Vacate the Helms!!! Make them give up a trophy they didn't even win. That would hit 'em where it hurts.

I just spit coffee on my keyboard. Excellent.

[walras]

One missing piece seems crucial.
Those of us who are very familiar with academic departments understand the role of the department administrator, the staff person who works for the chair of the department and handles most all of the day to day operations. In small departments like AAS at UNC, that person will often create the schedules, register the students, certify the courses, obtain the rooms, and so on. That person at UNC has resigned, and the university cannot it seems compel her (given her refusal to speak at all) to give any evidence to their investigators. Only the SBI, with subpoena powers, will ever get an interview with her.

It may be the case that she liked athletes and wanted her boys to succeed. Or there may be racial issues involved (who were the favored students?) etc. The fact that the chair was not paid for those independent study classes with his name on them suggests there was no financial trail that UNC internal audit could track, and prosecute.

Cherchez la femme.

[Nepos]

But as far as caring for their reputation, I don’t, not even one tiny little bit.

I would love to see something happen that would humble that crowd, but for the life of me I cannot imagine anything that would humble that crowd…. Can anyone?

Some thoughts from a person with degrees from both schools, who has lived in either Chapel Hill or Durham for over 25 years:

- Not sure which school's alums would win an arrogance contest, but both would certainly qualify for the national tournament each year. I think both schools have lots to feel proud about, but humility is not a strength at either school.

- I think the schools are highly reliant on each other as they compete for the top students, faculty and staff across the country. The strength of one helps the other. This is probably least important for student recruitment, but is definitely the case for post-docs, faculty and academic staff who consider collaborative opportunities and the intellectual climate of the area when making choices about their careers. This, of course, has a large indirect impact on the competition for promising students.

- Durham and Chapel Hill are highly reliant on the strengths of both schools (and the schools benefit from the strengths of the cities). Durham's economic and "hip" growth over the past 10-15 years has definitely been influenced by Duke, but UNC's strength has also helped Durham.

- In short, like it or not (definitely not), the stength of Duke, UNC, Durham, and Chapel Hill is all tied together. Rooting against UNC and hating the arrogance of their fans is all part of the fun of the rivalry, but I encourage you also to consider that we benefit from their strength (especially regarding academic prowess and integrity).

[moonpie23]

- Not sure which school's alums would win an arrogance contest, but both would certainly qualify for the national tournament each year.

there IS a difference though...very simply put.

duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance...

[chaosmage]

The UNC arrogance is everywhere. There are very few Duke fans out here in SoCal, at least in my circles. I know of one, a student of mine, great kid who graduated and will hopefully make it through college. It was enjoyable to watch him mature as a fan under my tutelage. The UNC fans here? Just as "entitled" as the ones in NC. All I heard this year was how "Marshall's injury" and "those thugs at Creighton (?)" robbed them.

I wrote initially a very long essay on my aunt and uncle, both graduates, but realized it was a lot of anger at them as much as it was UNC arrogance. It is, because of the way they and other fans act. Transitive property and all that. Suffice it to say that once I was old enough to watch and really get B-ball, and decided I liked Duke better, then it has ALWAYS been a bone of contention in my family, and my "standing" with the two of them has plummeted. Never speak first at family gatherings, never ask how I'm doing until there is NOTHING else to talk about, etc.

Without going too much more into it, unless you ask, it is highly true of the arrogance of their graduates that I have met or known. I would hesitate to even BRING UP this mess to my family, for the sheer fact of the "poking the bear" rather than creating a serious discussion. They still see me as pulling for Duke as a form of betrayal, which I now wear PROUDLY!

So to hell with the Holes, and down with the whole place!

[Nepos]

there IS a difference though...very simply put.

duke fans WANT the title each year, unc EXPECTS the title this year, next year and every year after that....any year in the past that they DIDN'T win the title was because they were somehow robbed of it...

there's arrogance, and then there's unc arrogance...

I get it, and see that there is some truth to this distinction (though there are tons of UNC bball fans that fall into your first category, and tons of Duke fans that fall into your second category).

On the other hand, you may see the kernel of truth in the following statement (heard on the streets of CH):

UNC fans WANT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes, Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes. There's arrogance, and then there's Duke arrogance.

To me, both sets of fans are pretty darn arrogant about their basketball and their academics -- probably because both schools have been highly successful in both areas. To me, both sets of fans would be wise to acknowledge that some of their strength in these areas is due to the strength of their neighbors. I suggest that UNC's current academic fiasco does nothing to help Duke, and arguably hurts Duke.

[75Crazie]

On the other hand, you may see the kernel of truth in the following statement (heard on the streets of CH):

UNC fans WANT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes, Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be regarded as the prototypical scholar-athletes. There's arrogance, and then there's Duke arrogance.

I would instead word the second phrase as "Duke fans EXPECT their bball players to be prototypical scholar-athletes". If that is true, then absence of perception is the problem of the perceptor. If this attitude makes me arrogant, so be it. I prefer to see it as a validation of the concept that a person accepted into college should be a student.