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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    FWIW, Greybeard, Battier has been doing it for years. I thought it was mentioned in the NY Times Magazine's cover article a couple of years ago. - sage
    I am not concerned with how long he has been doing it. Dean got away with his intimidating tactic for years. Within the rules, fine. I am sure that Perkins can find a way within the rules to ring Battriers' bell multiple times if necessary. If he can, I would. Pat Riley definitely would. The real point of my post, however, is what I said at the very begining, I think it is taudry and dangerous and is effective because it threatens a guy with injury. Heck, face guarding is a rule violation in the NFL isn't it, albeit for different reasons.

    I can understand different views--that if it's effective and within the rules, use it. No one so far has disagreed with my view that it is effective because it gives a shooter pause, it causes him to "blink," when a hand is put right up in front of this face, with a guy leaping towards you. Reflexive. If someone plays ball, please go to a playground where guys are really balling and try that little maneuver just once. It will be your last.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I am not concerned with how long he has been doing it. Dean got away with his intimidating tactic for years. Within the rules, fine. I am sure that Perkins can find a way within the rules to ring Battriers' bell multiple times if necessary. If he can, I would. Pat Riley definitely would. The real point of my post, however, is what I said at the very begining, I think it is taudry and dangerous and is effective because it threatens a guy with injury. Heck, face guarding is a rule violation in the NFL isn't it, albeit for different reasons.

    I can understand different views--that if it's effective and within the rules, use it. No one so far has disagreed with my view that it is effective because it gives a shooter pause, it causes him to "blink," when a hand is put right up in front of this face, with a guy leaping towards you. Reflexive. If someone plays ball, please go to a playground where guys are really balling and try that little maneuver just once. It will be your last.
    How about how it's efficacy is related to not being able to see the basket as well? Battier's not pointing his fingers at the shooter's face, but rather putting his open hand in his face to obscure his vision. Here is a link to a google image search for "shane battier hand in face" that might help demonstrate what's happening, which will hopefully change your mind about it being a dirty or intimidating play. It's not at all the same as sticking your foot under someone's feet during a jump shot or Bowen's leg sweep. If he were to make contact, Battier's hand would hit the shooter in the face with an open palm, coming from above the shooter's head and down, not up, into his eyes. If it gives shooters pause, it's because they haven't seen that tactic used before, not because they think they're going to get poked in the eye.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Heck, face guarding is a rule violation in the NFL isn't it, albeit for different reasons.
    False. There is no rule in the NFL against face-guarding.

    http://archive.profootballtalk.com/C...hipTenPack.htm

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    FWIW, Greybeard, Battier has been doing it for years. I thought it was mentioned in the NY Times Magazine's cover article a couple of years ago. - sage
    ...and I can't recall him ever gouging anyone's eyes out, unless I'm mistaken, which would indicate it's actually not that dangerous of a tactic after all.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Dallas
    I've always enjoyed watching Shane's defense. I think it is awesome that he has the ability to put his hand in someone's face and not foul them. He doesn't jump after the ball and therefore eliminates the possibility of fouling someone with his body. He doesn't slap the ball away and therefore there is no chance the ref will call a foul for his hand connecting with an arm. Instead, he puts his hand in front of the player's face. He takes away their ability to see the court and they are more likely to make a mistake. It's a very clean way to play; it also requires less from his body which allows him to play more minutes. Here's to Shane bottling up whom ever he is guarding.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    If face-guarding involved putting a hand within a fingers-length of an eyeball, then maybe you could argue that intimidation is the goal. But at 8+ inches, blocking vision is clearly the one and only objective.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Shane is going to make a great President someday
    I have no doubt about it! Hopefully, I'll live long enough to see his inauguration.
    But seriously, I really believe he has his sights on it. He has the smarts, (will have)
    the resume', and has a charismatic personality (unlike Bill Bradley, who didn't). I have never
    doubted that his NBA career was only a prelude to greater things.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    The hand-in-the-face move was mentioned in the old NY Times article if my memory serves correctly, and he even talked about it in detail. He said he'll occasionally allow himself to actually make contact with the player's face, even if he has to take a foul. It's worth it if it causes the player to worry about it happening from then on. Whether the threat of poking someone in the eye constitutes a "dirty play" is debatable I suppose. But Shane has been doing it for years, even going back to his days at Duke.

    Battier does a whole lot more on defense than just put his hand in a guy's face. Keep your eyes on him through an entire defensive possession and you'll see that he's always positioned perfectly, ready to help off his man without leaving him completely, cutting off passing angles and driving lanes, and generally disrupting things. Often his positioning allows a teammate to make a defensive play or rebound. And he does seem to have the freedom to roam around a lot, perhaps a liberty that he has earned. Occasionally he'll get burned by it and leave his man wide open, but more often he creates a big defensive play. I remember one time someone asked Coach K what his defensive strategy was, and he responded "tell Shane to go out there and mess things up."

  9. #29

    "hand-in-face"

    I recall... from my very younger days... they told us that if someone is taller, you'll never block his shot. But, you can disrupt his view. So just get your hand up and block his view towards the basket. I don't recall anyone ever mentioning "touching" his face or even threatening to touch is face, but just get a hand up to block his view. I think it may be like playing defense against an out-of-bounds passer. Jumping around, waving hands, etc will probably never block the pass, but it surely can disrupt vision. Just ask Grant

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    If someone plays ball, please go to a playground where guys are really balling and try that little maneuver just once. It will be your last.
    this isn't a playground, and i'd have to say that the NBA finals are about as "really balling" as you can get....it's a very good defensive maneuver, but if you want to reduce the strategy down to just brawling when things don't go your way, well, that would be hockey....
    "One POSSIBLE future. From your point of view... I don't know tech stuff.".... Kyle Reese

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    Battier does a whole lot more on defense than just put his hand in a guy's face. Keep your eyes on him through an entire defensive possession and you'll see..."
    Yes. K once recommended that for a series of possessions, observers do nothing but observe Shane. The quotation, or pretty close, was: "Don't watch anything or anyone but Shane. Just watch Shane."

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by dcdevil2009 View Post
    How about how it's efficacy is related to not being able to see the basket as well? Battier's not pointing his fingers at the shooter's face, but rather putting his open hand in his face to obscure his vision. Here is a link to a google image search for "shane battier hand in face" that might help demonstrate what's happening, which will hopefully change your mind about it being a dirty or intimidating play. It's not at all the same as sticking your foot under someone's feet during a jump shot or Bowen's leg sweep. If he were to make contact, Battier's hand would hit the shooter in the face with an open palm, coming from above the shooter's head and down, not up, into his eyes. If it gives shooters pause, it's because they haven't seen that tactic used before, not because they think they're going to get poked in the eye.
    We're seeing very different things in these pictures. The third one, Battier coming up into Durant's face, for example, those fingers are pointing up at an angle if both keep moving toward one aother,it's in his eye. The real point is that if someone lunges with a locked arm pointing at your face it is disturbing to your shot.

    I do not believe that Shane is blocking out anyone's vision sufficiently to impact the shot. I think that the reflex action will cause a pull back by the shooter, literally change momentum of the head, and/or the float of the body forward. That is what in my view makes this last minute move with a locked arm , or striaghtening arm effective. Like I said, you go where the real games are in DC and try something like that and it will be on, and some of these dudes are for real. I wouldn't be surprised if things don't get a whole lot nastier this next game--Perkins controlling the paint could make some guys flinch as well, like Mr. Wade for instance, or that shooter from Kansas who likes to take it to the basket at times.

    I'm seeing a nastier side to Battier in the last two series. Nothing over the top, but out of character for him.

    I think that Battier is the leader of that team now--not Wade, not LeBron, not the coach. Dude's a Champion, a real Champion, he's disciplined, very, very sharp and prepared to defend as I think few players are or have been. I'm a Battier fan, I thought that he would take away Harden's game, and that that would make the differnce. I don't think that the Thunder can afford to let this play directed at Durant go unanswered, and think that they are justified in making it stop by any means necessary.

    I don't like the play, and, were it my team, I'd make it stop.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Walnut Creek, California
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I don't like the play, and, were it my team, I'd make it stop.
    The problem with your approach is that two can play that game. Dirty play against Battier might well result in similar dirty play against a Thunder team member, not necessarily by Battier, but someone else. I don't think the coaches would like that, much less instigate it, as it becomes a vicious circle. As long as Battier isn't hurting anyone, that circle won't start.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nashville
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I do not believe that Shane is blocking out anyone's vision sufficiently to impact the shot.
    You don't?

    nba_g_battier_b1_200.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I don't like the play, and, were it my team, I'd make it stop.
    What about when guys know they're too out of position to contest an open shooter, so instead of jumping as they run out, they pretend to that little low-jab towards the stomach to try and throw off the shooter's concentration - would you have a problem with that, too? Guys do that all the time in pickup games, if that's (for some reason) the standard we're going by. It's all part of the game.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    I think that Battier is the leader of that team now--not Wade, not LeBron, not the coach. Dude's a Champion, a real Champion, he's disciplined, very, very sharp and prepared to defend as I think few players are or have been. I'm a Battier fan, I thought that he would take away Harden's game, and that that would make the differnce.
    What I always loved about Battier was how well he understood the game and percentages. Battier was the winningest player in Duke history for good reason; that was all he cared about. He knew when to step it up, and, more importantly, when to let other people step it up. His first two years, he knew that Brand and Langdon were better percentage scorers, so he let them do most of the scoring. Result: team won every game but two, and came one game away from winning an NC. His last two years, he knew he needed to step it up, so he did. Result: an NC, where he personally carried the team down the stretch, making several winning plays.

    Now, after a season where Battier has helped Lebron and Wade, he realizes the team needs him to step it up. Result: two 17 point games and many clutch plays made, and he may be the difference maker in the series. Battier could have scored more all these years if he'd wanted to, but the fact that he cared about winning more and helping his teammates is the reason why he is now positioned to get (maybe) both an NCAA and NBA ring. What a credit to the program!

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    Shane is going to make a great President someday. Smart guy. One of the best defenders in the NBA. MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP! MVP!
    -bdbd beat me to the punch on this one. I freely admit that I do no watch NBA basketball, but I may have to watch a few games of this series to pull for Battier. If he stays on his current trajectory and the Heat ultimately win, does Battier have a shot at MVP? It would be so cool to see him win it over the Heat's more hyped players.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    President: Shane Battier.
    VP: Grant Hill
    Sec. Defense: Nate James
    Sec. State: Coach K
    Sec. Treasury: JJ ('cause he's money)


    Now THAT's a starting five.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    You don't?

    nba_g_battier_b1_200.jpg



    What about when guys know they're too out of position to contest an open shooter, so instead of jumping as they run out, they pretend to that little low-jab towards the stomach to try and throw off the shooter's concentration - would you have a problem with that, too? Guys do that all the time in pickup games, if that's (for some reason) the standard we're going by. It's all part of the game.
    I got my radial head broken on just such a play. Yes, I have a big probloem with that play. The picture above with Shane and his hand in front of Durant's eyes, the ball is about to leave Durant's fingers. How would you react if you saw that hand coming to your face. You probably wouldn't need to know because your reaction would be reflexive, it would cause a change in the momentum of the shot precisely because a guy is moving towards you from at least a step away with an arm extended and his hand going for your face. Don't believe me, try it the next time you are on the court with a friend. See how he reacts and then ask him if he felt himself feel differently through the shot.

    I think that it is a cheap and dangerous move and I'd put a stop to it, were I the coach. You do not want to go after a team that has Perkins and have thrown the first punch. Riley knows that. He did it for years with Oakly and Mason, so did Detroit with Lamber and Mahorn. Thug ball, in Battier's case with a cleverness worthy of el Deano but in this case it is somebody's face/eyes.

    If someone did that to LeBron, either Lebron the next time he had the chance when he built up a head of steam would look for that guy or take whomever was anywhere near in his way and make a collision happen that the guy would remember near the rest of his life. On the other hand, if the hand into an inch or so of Levron's face and mirrors what Battier had just done, I don't think that LeBron would do a thing. Nor do I think Miami would be any position to retaliate for a rough foul that the entire team, certainly the coach knew Battier had precipitated. But, if that's the way it has to go, if Miami wants to get into it for real, if I'm the coach I say bring it on.

  19. #39
    I loved when Battier would do that at Duke, and I picked it up myself. I've never once hit anyone in the face. I can confirm that people hate it, mostly because it makes them miss shots.

  20. #40
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    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Shane had two key rebound/tip-outs at crunch time tonight. Only watched the end of the game, but he made some key plays when it counted.

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