Best Duke backcourt?

[jimsumner]

Yes, you are correct, they were forwards. I knew that. But, if you look them up on the GoDuke roster stats from the past, they are officially listed as F/G's. That would make them eligible.

ricks

This means that Vic Bubas was the first coach to use the four-guard system. It also means that Heyman was the best rebounding guard in Duke history.

[jv001]

This means that Vic Bubas was the first coach to use the four-guard system. It also means that Heyman was the best rebounding guard in Duke history.

If I remember correctly, Heyman was great at rebounding his own missed shots. He was one tough player. GoDuke!

[Edouble]

Hey, you're entitled to put a forward at guard.

I'm entitled to point out that you put a forward at guard.

FWIW, Shane Battier played some guard in the NBA. Wouldn't Williams and Battier qualify? Grant Hill played some guard at Duke. So, why not go with Hurley and Grant Hill as Duke's best backcourt?

Call me a hide-bound old fogey, but I feel that Duke's best backcourt should probably consist of guys who actually played backcourt at Duke. Not hypotheticals based on what could have happened.

And, btw, the year that Mike Dunleavy was out of position at power forward is the year he averged 17.3 points, 7.2rebounds per game, led Duke in blocked shots, made first-team All-ACC and second-team All-America.

Duke and Maryland split that season, Duke winning by 21, Maryland winning by 14. In the Duke win, Dunleavy had 21 points and nine rebounds. So, I could just as easily recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox.

I'm entitled to point out that Duke doesn't have positions.

Chris Wilcox, was a beast, but he was not an All-American calibre player. He was the 4th most important player on that Maryland team. Dunleavy was certainly not a power forward. He played out of position. Forget the stats for a minute and watch the game tape. Dunleavy was not equipped to handle Wilcox, plain and simple. It would be hard to recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox because it did not happen. Mike was a really big guard/swing forward that we pushed into post defense out of necessity.

I thought that Mike rivaled Jason Williams that year as the best player in the country, and yet he was not a first team All-American, as you point out. The fact that he was the second college player taken in the draft, but not among five college players named to the 1st team All-America points to the fact that he wasn't used as well as we could have used him, due to having to play out of position.

Battier would not qualify as a backcourt type of player because he did not have the guard abilities that Dunleavy had. Neither did Ferry. That is not something you can use stats to quantify. Dunleavy had spin moves, behind the back dribbles, etc. etc... guard skills.

If you wanted to say that Hurley and Hill would be your best Duke back court, I would accept that argument. My idea is to put two players into the 1 (PG) and 2 (SG) spots and see who's duo is the scariest. Hurley is capable of playing the 1, and Grant Hill, who could play 4 or 5 positions, depending on who you ask, could definitely fill the 2 spot.

[Edouble]

How 'bout Grant and Ferry in the back court (they both handled the ball a lot and were good passers)? And Cwell and Bricky inside, of course. I'm not sure who should round out that inverted team, though.

-jk

I get that you are making fun of me, but I'm not sure why. Obviously these players didn't even play together. Mike Dunleavy, who had all the skills of a guard, is a reasonable player to consider as a backcourt member. I clearly prefaced my post with a disclaimer. It gets very tiresome around here to be ridiculed if you are not one of about 10-12 posters that post 10+ times/day. Why not just have a private board for those people? Sorry, I have a life that does not involve becoming a "poster of note" on the site. I have too much else going on outside of this website.

[Edouble]

3) Never dispute Jim Sumner about Duke basketball.

I would dispute Coach K about Duke basketball if I thought I had a valid point. If he wanted to recruit a 4'8" one armed point guard, I would say something to him if he were around.

Jim Sumner knows a lot about Duke basketball, but c'mon. The point of this site is discussion and yes, argument. If you can't dispute people, there is no point to any of this. No one here is a deity.

Dunleavy's versatility allowed the 99/00 team to hide a lot of weaknesses. Mike played a fair amount of guard in high school, and played a fair amount of guard in 99/00. We were so low on guards, we recruited Andre Buckner as insurance. Mike did stuff that guards do--handle the ball, shoot, drive. Yes Boozer did these things too sometimes. If you honestly want to argue that Dunleavy = Boozer when it comes to being a guard, because they both had frontcourt letters labeling their position on a stat sheet, then you don't know much about basketball.

Watch this and tell me that it is a stretch to call Mike Dunleavy a guard. Battier, Ferry, Carrawell, and even Deng didn't have this at Duke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM4yoO3RHKI

Dude had full guard skills at the forward position. Jim Sumner did not out-argue me. He simply said that he wanted to go with players that had actually played the "1" and "2" positions while they were Blue Devils. Well, we don't actually have a "2" position at Duke anyway, and if we did, Dunleavy certainly played it his freshman year.

I prefaced my post with a disclaimer saying that if I could choose two players from any team to construct a backcourt, I would choose the 01/02 versions of Jdub and Dunleavy. Sumner said he's old school and wants to go by the stat sheet position labels. He didn't conquer my dispute, he just said he didn't like my disclaimer.

But if you are saying I am foolish to dispute him because he brought up Battier? Mike is clearly skilled at guard in ways that Battier is not/never was. I get that just from having watched all of the games that both players played at Duke. There is no stat for that. Just opinion. You would be foolish to dispute that though, as you would end up looking pretty silly.

[UrinalCake]

Watch this and tell me that it is a stretch to call Mike Dunleavy a guard. Battier, Ferry, Carrawell, and even Deng didn't have this at Duke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM4yoO3RHKI

That was one of my favorite Duke plays EVER. It's a shame it had to happen in such an inconsequential game. I remember after the game his father said something like "he must have learned that from his mother, because I couldn't do that."

I agree with your definition of Dunleavy as a forward with guard skills. Not too many straight-up forwards could hit three three-pointers in 90 seconds to put away a National Title. Good times...

[jimsumner]

I'm entitled to point out that Duke doesn't have positions.

Chris Wilcox, was a beast, but he was not an All-American calibre player. He was the 4th most important player on that Maryland team. Dunleavy was certainly not a power forward. He played out of position. Forget the stats for a minute and watch the game tape. Dunleavy was not equipped to handle Wilcox, plain and simple. It would be hard to recall Dunleavy outplaying Wilcox because it did not happen. Mike was a really big guard/swing forward that we pushed into post defense out of necessity.

I thought that Mike rivaled Jason Williams that year as the best player in the country, and yet he was not a first team All-American, as you point out. The fact that he was the second college player taken in the draft, but not among five college players named to the 1st team All-America points to the fact that he wasn't used as well as we could have used him, due to having to play out of position.

Battier would not qualify as a backcourt type of player because he did not have the guard abilities that Dunleavy had. Neither did Ferry. That is not something you can use stats to quantify. Dunleavy had spin moves, behind the back dribbles, etc. etc... guard skills.

If you wanted to say that Hurley and Hill would be your best Duke back court, I would accept that argument. My idea is to put two players into the 1 (PG) and 2 (SG) spots and see who's duo is the scariest. Hurley is capable of playing the 1, and Grant Hill, who could play 4 or 5 positions, depending on who you ask, could definitely fill the 2 spot.

You do realize that Duke played Maryland twice that season? At the risk of trying to quantify with stats, let's look at those games.

Duke won the first game 99-78. Dunleavy had 21 points and 9 rebounds. Wilcox had 14 points and 7 rebounds.

Maryland won the second game 87-73. Dunleavy had 15 points and 11 rebounds, Wilcox 23 points and 11 rebounds.

In the two games, Dunleavy had 36 points, 20 rebounds, Wilcox 37 points, 18 rebounds. Perhaps not the dominance you recall.

Wilcox was the eighth pick in the 2002 NBA draft. I'm sure how averaging 10 rebounds per game against the second college big man drafted that year supports your thesis that Dunleavy couldn't play the 4.

Could Dunleavy have been a top college guard? Probably. But he wasn't. You have every right to wander into a counter-factual wilderness but we have every right to point out that it is counter-factual. Mike Dunleavy didn't play guard at Duke after his freshman season and didn't play all that much as a freshman. Jeff Mullins spent a fruitful decade plus playing guard in the NBA, so he sure could have played guard at Duke. But he didn't. Hence, he isn't part of any rational Duke backcourt.

And of course Duke has positions, defined more fluidly than many other programs but positions nonetheless. Duke always has a ball-handler and Duke always has at least one post. I can't count the number of times I've heard Mike Krzyzewski use the traditional 1-5 nomenclature but it's a lot. The times he said something along the lines of we-don't have positions is shorthand for "I value flexibility and versatility and I try to put as much versatility on the floor as possible and try not to restrict the players by an artificial definition of what they should be able to do as a 4 or as a point or whatever."

That means Christian Laettner or Cherokee Parks can shoot three-pointers as centers. It doesn't mean they aren't centers, it means K doesn't restrict them to a narrow definition of their position. Danny Ferry may not have dribbled behind his back but his perimeter skills were pretty refined. Doesn't mean he was a guard. Josh McRoberts frequently brought the ball up court in 2007. Doesn't mean he was a guard, either.

Like Mike Dunleavy wasn't a guard.

[mapei]

I don't have a problem with someone considering MD as a part-time backcourt player. He did meet the eyeball test as a "guard" at times, and seemed a little out of position as a forward on occasion. He was probably not a pure 3, but maybe a 2.75.

He's not making my best-ever backcourt, though, because that goes to Jason and Chris D. But I'll happliy acknowledge that Tommy and JD absolutely belong in that conversation.

If I have to pick best-ever point guard at Duke, though, it's Hurley by a mile. And JJ gets my best-ever shooting guard. Which is not to say that they would have played together effectively, just that each had very special talents at their positions, which is why their jerseys hang in the rafters.