Best Duke backcourt?

[Jderf]

If we're giving bumps for longevity, we should consider Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill. Played together for four years, started for three, both made All-ACC three times. Had some team success too.

Meiosis much?

[Olympic Fan]

If we're giving bumps for longevity, we should consider Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill. Played together for four years, started for three, both made All-ACC three times. Had some team success too.

Consideration -- yes, but personally, I think they still come up short to Dawkins-Amaker.

Thomas Hill and Hurley kind of started for three years together -- Hill was a sporadic starter in 1991. He started 23 of 39 games - two more than Billy McCaffrey. In 1992 nd 1993, Hurley and Hill were the starters (except when Hurley was hurt). They did start together on two national championship teams (since Hill started during the 1991 NCAA Tournament).

I would still argue that Dawkins and Amaker were better. Hurley was a great playmaker (greater than Amaker) and a great on-the-ball defender (almost as good as Amaker). Hurley was the better offensive player, averaging 12.4 ppg for his career to Amaker's 8.5 (although Amaker did shoot over 46 percent from the floor -- Hurley was 41 percent). On the other hand, Thomas Hill -- as good as he was -- was not in Dawkins' class. It's not close.

Hill did make All-ACC three times -- all third team and twice the final player picked to the third team. There was no third team when Dawkins (two time first team; twice second team) and Amaker (once second team) played.

Hill and Hurley did have a bit more team success -- but a couple of guys named Christian Laettner and Grant Hill might have helped a little.

Don't get me wrong -- I think Hurley and Thomas Hill deserve to be in consideration, but not at the top. After reading this thread and thinking about it, I'd rate them:

1. Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker
2. Chris Duhon and Jason Williams
3. Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill
4. Bob Verga and Steve Vacendek
5. Chris Duhon and JJ Redick (they actually started more games together than Duhon and Williams ... the only reason they are not higher is that Redick only became a GREAT player as a junior in 2005 ... he was still good in 2003 and 2004, when he played with Duhon, but was a fairly one-dimensional player at that point).
6. Nolan Smith and Jon Scheyer (only one year as the starting backcourt, but it was a pretty good year)
7. Tate Armstrong and Jim Spanarkel (only together in 1976, when Spanarkel was a freshman and through the first 13 games in 1977)
8. Quin Snyder and Kevin Strickland
(tie) Quin Snyder and Phil Henderson (I wanted to include Quin -- a much underrated player -- but he really only started with Strickland in '88 and Henderson in '89. Still, Duke went to the Final Four both years).

That's about as far asmy memory goes back. I'd like to include Buzzy Harrison, but he never really played with a first-rate guard. Same with Gary Melchionni. He overlapped with Dick DeVenzio (who was prett good) one year, but Melchionni was sick most of that year and played less than Jeff Dawson. Maybe Bob Bender and Spanarkel in '79 or Bender and Vince Taylor in 1980, but that would be stretching things. Heck, Nolan Smith and Seth Curry in 2011 were a better combo (even if Curry started just 19 of 37 games). Maybe Redick and Paulus in 2006 (Redick was a great SG and OPaulus did lead the ACC in assists as a freshman).

Personally, i can't rate Smith and Irving in the top 10 off eight games ... but they would have been awfully darn good.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Two guys named Dawkins and Amaker certainly were no slouches.

1. Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker
2. Chris Duhon and Jason Williams
3. Bobby Hurley and Thomas Hill
4. Bob Verga and Steve Vacendek
5. Chris Duhon and JJ Redick (they actually started more games together than Duhon and Williams ... the only reason they are not higher is that Redick only became a GREAT player as a junior in 2005 ... he was still good in 2003 and 2004, when he played with Duhon, but was a fairly one-dimensional player at that point).
6. Nolan Smith and Jon Scheyer (only one year as the starting backcourt, but it was a pretty good year)
7. Tate Armstrong and Jim Spanarkel (only together in 1976, when Spanarkel was a freshman and through the first 13 games in 1977)
8. Quin Snyder and Kevin Strickland
(tie) Quin Snyder and Phil Henderson (I wanted to include Quin -- a much underrated player -- but he really only started with Strickland in '88 and Henderson in '89. Still, Duke went to the Final Four both years).

That's about as far asmy memory goes back. I'd like to include Buzzy Harrison, but he never really played with a first-rate guard. Same with Gary Melchionni. He overlapped with Dick DeVenzio (who was prett good) one year, but Melchionni was sick most of that year and played less than Jeff Dawson. Maybe Bob Bender and Spanarkel in '79 or Bender and Vince Taylor in 1980, but that would be stretching things. Heck, Nolan Smith and Seth Curry in 2011 were a better combo (even if Curry started just 19 of 37 games). Maybe Redick and Paulus in 2006 (Redick was a great SG and OPaulus did lead the ACC in assists as a freshman).

Personally, i can't rate Smith and Irving in the top 10 off eight games ... but they would have been awfully darn good.

Yeah, I'll go along with your analysis and rankings!

[jimsumner]

Duhon and Redick? Interesting dilemma. For part of 2003 and all of 2004, they started along with Ewing.
Duhon was the point. Who was the other guard, Redick or Ewing?

[phaedrus]

Austin Rivers and Austin Rivers.

KIDDING.

[Olympic Fan]

Duhon and Redick? Interesting dilemma. For part of 2003 and all of 2004, they started along with Ewing.
Duhon was the point. Who was the other guard, Redick or Ewing?

In truth, THAT was the real birth of the three guard lineup. I know K had used it before, but never as extensively -- or with three guys who were clearly guards -- as Duhon, Redick and Ewing. Before, the third guard was always somebody like David Henderson or Greg Koubek. Okay, thinking about it, I guess we saw a lot of it in '97 (Wojo, Langdon, Capel).

You can split hairs about positions -- no debate that Duhon was the point guard, but Redick and Ewing were equally wing guards. Okay, as I rememeber, Ewing usually guarded the small forward btu the evidence on the boards was mixed. Ewing was the better rebounder in '03, but Redick rebounded better than Ewing in '04.

They also played three (and sometimes four) guards in 2005. Dockery was the closest to a point guard until he got hurt and Ewing kind of took over the point. Nelson, when he wasn't hurt could definitely qualify as the SF (and even the PF in the four-guard lineup). He was the strongest and best rebounding guard we've had in modern times, even at 6-3.

[luvdahops]

In truth, THAT was the real birth of the three guard lineup. I know K had used it before, but never as extensively -- or with three guys who were clearly guards -- as Duhon, Redick and Ewing. Before, the third guard was always somebody like David Henderson or Greg Koubek. Okay, thinking about it, I guess we saw a lot of it in '97 (Wojo, Langdon, Capel).

You can split hairs about positions -- no debate that Duhon was the point guard, but Redick and Ewing were equally wing guards. Okay, as I rememeber, Ewing usually guarded the small forward btu the evidence on the boards was mixed. Ewing was the better rebounder in '03, but Redick rebounded better than Ewing in '04.

They also played three (and sometimes four) guards in 2005. Dockery was the closest to a point guard until he got hurt and Ewing kind of took over the point. Nelson, when he wasn't hurt could definitely qualify as the SF (and even the PF in the four-guard lineup). He was the strongest and best rebounding guard we've had in modern times, even at 6-3.

I might even argue that 96 (Collins, Capel and Price) was the first instance of a true 3-guard offnese, though Price was more of a swingman true SG, so would have to go with 97, as you note above. That team also finished the year with perhaps the ultimate small ball lineup - Wojo, Langdon, Capel, Carrawell (natural wing at PF) and McLeod (natural combo forward at C).

DeMarcus may have been the most unusual player K has ever had. At the NBA draft camp, he actually measured just 6-1 in socks, though with a 6-10 wingspan, 38.5 inch max vertical and 11-5 max reach (higher than Russell Westbrook's and generally in the company of 6-6 or 6-7 guys).

[wsb3]

Dawkins & Amaker...We have had some great back courts and I love the shout outs to Verga Vacendak but no way they come close on the defensive end to Amaker & Dawkins. We may have had better offensive guards though they were pretty darn good but when you weigh in the defensive side of things I think it has to be Dawkins Amaker. Al McGuire was calling a Duke game and said Dawkins & Amaker were the best back court of the decade nationally or something to that effect. He caught some flak for it but he stood by his statement if my shaky memory serves me correctly.

[Newton_14]

Dawkins & Amaker...We have had some great back courts and I love the shout outs to Verga Vacendak but no way they come close on the defensive end to Amaker & Dawkins. We may have had better offensive guards though they were pretty darn good but when you weigh in the defensive side of things I think it has to be Dawkins Amaker. Al McGuire was calling a Duke game and said Dawkins & Amaker were the best back court of the decade nationally or something to that effect. He caught some flak for it but he stood by his statement if my shaky memory serves me correctly.

I have to agree, mainly because, not only were both really good players (at the time Dawkins was becoming the best ever Duke player at that point in time), but they were a perfect fit together. Dawkins was the best offensive player on the floor, and a really good defender, while Amaker was the best defensive player on the floor, and really good offensively as well. They complemented each other perfectly.

With Williams and Duhon, I always thought they were at their best when Williams was the PG and Duhon the SG. I never liked it in 2002 when K switched them. Will always believe Duke would have been a better team that year had K played them the way he did down the stretch in 2001. Jason needed the ball in his hands to be at his best imo.

[jimsumner]

This raises the question of best college backcourt ever.

My vote goes to Walt Hazzard and Gail Goodrich, c. 1964.

Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

[Verga3]

This raises the question of best college backcourt ever.

My vote goes to Walt Hazzard and Gail Goodrich, c. 1964.

Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

Hard to argue with Hazzard & Goodrich. Another one that's close could be Durham native, John Lucas and Phiily-born, Mo Howard in the mid-70's?

[jv001]

As good as Jerry West(The Cabin Creek Comet) & Pistol Pete were in college it doesn't make much difference who their running mate was. I certainly can't remember. So I would have to put them up there on their play alone. GoDuke!

[OldPhiKap]

Two guys named Dawkins and Amaker certainly were no slouches.

Talk about a mixture of scoring and defense/assists.

JWill and Duhon were probably more interchangeable, but JD and Tommy were SO much fun to watch.

[hurleyfor3]

Austin Rivers and Austin Rivers.

Hurley and a tree stump.

[OldPhiKap]

Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

That, or Fire and Ice -- Corchiani and Monroe.

[OldPhiKap]

Hurley and a tree stump.

Me and Kyrie would give anyone a run for their money.

Me and Uncle Drew, close second.

[jimsumner]

As good as Jerry West(The Cabin Creek Comet) & Pistol Pete were in college it doesn't make much difference who their running mate was. I certainly can't remember. So I would have to put them up there on their play alone. GoDuke!

West (and Oscar Robertson) were front-court players in college.

[wsb3]

That, or Fire and Ice -- Corchiani and Monroe.

One of my favorite non Duke back courts ever.

[sagegrouse]

Best ACC, excluding Duke? How about Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver, 1990? Oliver did play some 3, when Karl Brown and Anderson were in together but I'm sticking with Oliver as a guard.

Phil Ford and John Kuester? Phil Ford was an all-time great and Kuester was pretty good.

sage

[jimsumner]

Phil Ford and John Kuester? Phil Ford was an all-time great and Kuester was pretty good.

sage

I think Ford was the best player in UNC history. But Kuester brings down the average.

I suspect I'd rank Felton/McCants and Lawson/Ellington higher.