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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by gus View Post
    Hurley wasn't just great because of his fire and the talent around him. He was great.

    Amazing defender, brilliant and accurate passer, and could penetrate with the best. There is no way Avery should be on a list of "more talented PG's". And that's not meant to disrespect Avery. But Hurley was amazing.
    HEY! I don't disagree with you, I was just throwing names out there that others have mentioned when I had these discussions.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

    A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

    But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.
    Jim, I hear ya! But you are thinking with your head, I am thinking with my heart.... I'm telling you that shot he hit against UNLV.... well just say I will never forget where I was, who I was with, and what I did when it went down....

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    Jim, I hear ya! But you are thinking with your head, I am thinking with my heart.... I'm telling you that shot he hit against UNLV.... well just say I will never forget where I was, who I was with, and what I did when it went down....
    Now, now. This is a family site.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Now, now. This is a family site.
    Well, I must admit to a slight "man crush" on Bobby Hurley. But you know I'm sure as well as many of us, that he (that team) ended what was it 8? trips to the FF w/o a NC??? How can you not have a special place in your heart for your "first" NC????

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

    A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

    But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.
    As someone who is too young to have seen Phil Ford's career, that's an eyebrow-raising comparison. Out of curiosity, where would you fit in Jay-Dubs at the height of his powers? Just his pure god-given ankle-breaking ability makes for a hell of an X-factor...

  6. #66

    Fiord

    Quote Originally Posted by turnandburn55 View Post
    As someone who is too young to have seen Phil Ford's career, that's an eyebrow-raising comparison. Out of curiosity, where would you fit in Jay-Dubs at the height of his powers? Just his pure god-given ankle-breaking ability makes for a hell of an X-factor...
    Allow me to second Jim's points about the evolution of assists ...

    The ACC and NCAA didn't begin keeping assists until 1973. Before that, there were sporadic counts -- we know Dick Groat's assist totals because a young Bill Brill kept them. But it's meaingless to say Groat led the nation in assists because most schools didn't keep assists for most games. The ACC did keep assists for ACC Tournament games in the early days, but not regular season games.

    When assists started being kept in the mid-1970s, there was wide variation on the intepretation as to what is an assist. Today, almost any pass that is followed by a basket is an assist. Chris Corchiani racked up a lot of his assists by merely throwing the ball to Rodney Monroe, who made a jump shot. That wasn't not an assist anywhere in the ACC in the mid-1970s. Greg Paulus led he ACC in assists as a freshman in 2006 -- many of his assists coming on passes to JJ Redick, who would then nail a 3. Agan, not an assist in the mid-70s.

    The first school to approach the modern interpretation of assists was Clemson, where SID Bob Bradley was the ACC's chief statitician (he kept the official scorebook for every ACC Tournament game not involving Clemson until the 1980s). The last place to loosen up was Virginia, where for years, statistician Doyle Smith was notorious for awarding just three or four assists game. Doyle didn't really loosen up until John Crotty came around at he end of the 1980s.

    In that context, Phil Ford's 753 career assists between 1975-78 are a monumental total. He still ranks 11th in ACC history even though he is the only guy in the top 25 who played before 1980. He's 12th in ACC history in career points scored -- the highest rank of any true point guard. He was ACC Tournament MVP as a freshman (when UNC had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA Tournament) and was ACC player of the year as a senior. In between, he was three-time first-team All-ACC. I can't think of another ACC PG who cn match that accomplishment. Oh, he was the starting point guard on the 1976 Olympic Gold Medal team.

    Ford is also the only true ACC point guard to be consensus naional player of the year. He's one of two ACC point guards to be two-time consensus first team All-American (along with John Lucas and it could be argued that Lucas gave up the PG job to Brad Davis in 1975). I realize that Jason Williams is a special case, since he shared the point with Chris Duhon at the end of the 2001 season and for all of 2002 (when Jason was natonal player of the year).

    I would pick Ford over Hurley, Lucas, Jason Wlliams and maybe Kenny Anderson (he was great for two years) as the ACC's greatest point guard.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Allow me to second Jim's points about the evolution of assists ...

    The ACC and NCAA didn't begin keeping assists until 1973. Before that, there were sporadic counts -- we know Dick Groat's assist totals because a young Bill Brill kept them. But it's meaingless to say Groat led the nation in assists because most schools didn't keep assists for most games. The ACC did keep assists for ACC Tournament games in the early days, but not regular season games.

    When assists started being kept in the mid-1970s, there was wide variation on the intepretation as to what is an assist. Today, almost any pass that is followed by a basket is an assist. Chris Corchiani racked up a lot of his assists by merely throwing the ball to Rodney Monroe, who made a jump shot. That wasn't not an assist anywhere in the ACC in the mid-1970s. Greg Paulus led he ACC in assists as a freshman in 2006 -- many of his assists coming on passes to JJ Redick, who would then nail a 3. Agan, not an assist in the mid-70s.

    The first school to approach the modern interpretation of assists was Clemson, where SID Bob Bradley was the ACC's chief statitician (he kept the official scorebook for every ACC Tournament game not involving Clemson until the 1980s). The last place to loosen up was Virginia, where for years, statistician Doyle Smith was notorious for awarding just three or four assists game. Doyle didn't really loosen up until John Crotty came around at he end of the 1980s.

    In that context, Phil Ford's 753 career assists between 1975-78 are a monumental total. He still ranks 11th in ACC history even though he is the only guy in the top 25 who played before 1980. He's 12th in ACC history in career points scored -- the highest rank of any true point guard. He was ACC Tournament MVP as a freshman (when UNC had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA Tournament) and was ACC player of the year as a senior. In between, he was three-time first-team All-ACC. I can't think of another ACC PG who cn match that accomplishment. Oh, he was the starting point guard on the 1976 Olympic Gold Medal team.

    Ford is also the only true ACC point guard to be consensus naional player of the year. He's one of two ACC point guards to be two-time consensus first team All-American (along with John Lucas and it could be argued that Lucas gave up the PG job to Brad Davis in 1975). I realize that Jason Williams is a special case, since he shared the point with Chris Duhon at the end of the 2001 season and for all of 2002 (when Jason was natonal player of the year).

    I would pick Ford over Hurley, Lucas, Jason Wlliams and maybe Kenny Anderson (he was great for two years) as the ACC's greatest point guard.
    And you and Jim are right. BTW, I am amazed and awed with Jim's and your BB knowledge, thanks so much for sharing on the board, it makes this board infinitely better.

    I just think that Bobby's will, drive and toughness along with two NC's and assits (however you both make great points about the difference in how they were measured) make him the top IMHO.... again, this is one of those questions where there is going to be a lot of subjection involved. One quick point is that I think you have to consider it has been 20 years since he set that assist record and it still stands... of course a lot of great PG's left early, but BH can't help that. Comparing players from different eras will always be an apple oranges thing due to the evolution of the game.

    Bobby Hurley to ME (again not trying to convert anyone) was the best for the reasons I stated and the fact that (I never shy away from my bias because it is there and I must acknowledge it) he wore a Duke uniform. However I will conceed that there are players such as Ford who could be considered better PG's with very solid reasoning. I often think I may be confusing "favorite" with "best", but I really do think he was the "best" given the accomplishments he achieved. I actually think my favorite Duke PG was JWill. Ford was a beast, and almost unstopable during his time. He ran the four corners to perfection which is one reason that as a kid I loathed him... but he was truely amazing. Heaven's I hated the four corners... take the GOOD LORD that they put in a shot clock.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    I love Bobby Hurley.

    But I would take Phil Ford at his peak over Bobby Hurley at his peak and not think twice.

    A word about assists. No disrespect to Hurley, Corchiani, Cota, Blake, Marshall, et. al.

    But score-keepers were more stingy with assists in those days. Put Ford, John Lucas, Monte Towe in the '90s and their assist stats go up.
    Ford also played in an era that palming/carrying the ball was a turnover. Not in today's game. But if I remember correctly Bobby Hurley did not use today's method to cross over like the kids today. GoDuke!

  9. #69
    I would love to have seen a Hurley/Williams back court or an Irving/Williams back court.

  10. #70
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    Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    I would pick Ford over Hurley, Lucas, Jason Wlliams and maybe Kenny Anderson (he was great for two years) as the ACC's greatest point guard.
    I have never wavered in my belief that Phil Ford is the best ACC point guard I have seen. Now in the day of early departures I just don't see my opinion (for what that is worth) ever changing. His consistent play over four years and his ability to control and dominate a game set him apart. He averaged over 50% from the floor all four years. I never respected a UNC player more.

  11. #71
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    OK, I have stated the Phil Ford was one of (maybe the) greatest if thinking with your head vice heart (as I have confessed to doint) point guards to play.

    But, it is almost an apple oranges type of argument simple because of the shot clock. Ford never had to "push" the game (with the exception of end of half/game clock). He would have been great with a shot clock because he was a phenominal talent, but let's not overlook the difference having 35 seconds to get it done vice in some cases several minutes to make a play and how that "might" have affected his ability....

    Plus, did I mention that Bobby Hurley hit the most pressure packed 3 pointers in Duke history and lead Duke to BTB NC's??

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    OK, I have stated the Phil Ford was one of (maybe the) greatest if thinking with your head vice heart (as I have confessed to doint) point guards to play.

    But, it is almost an apple oranges type of argument simple because of the shot clock. Ford never had to "push" the game (with the exception of end of half/game clock). He would have been great with a shot clock because he was a phenominal talent, but let's not overlook the difference having 35 seconds to get it done vice in some cases several minutes to make a play and how that "might" have affected his ability....

    Plus, did I mention that Bobby Hurley hit the most pressure packed 3 pointers in Duke history and lead Duke to BTB NC's??
    Before his alcoholism got the better of him, Ford proved quite adept with the NBA's 24-second shot clock.

    So, I don't think a college shot clock would have inhibited his ability to get it done at the collegiate level.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    A fairly mediocre player named Dan Dakish usually gets the credit for frustrating Jordan in his final college game.
    I read somewhere that after Coach Knight told Dakich he "earned" the assignment of guarding Jordan, Dakich went back to his room and threw up.
    Bob Green
    United States Navy (Retired)
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Before his alcoholism got the better of him, Ford proved quite adept with the NBA's 24-second shot clock.

    So, I don't think a college shot clock would have inhibited his ability to get it done at the collegiate level.
    Jim, you’re killing me here man, come on, enough with the facts.... let me have my man crush on Bobby Hurley already!! Hey, did I mention that Bobby hit that big shot against UNLV that lead to our first NC??? I mean come on man... If there ever was a time that I would have kissed another man on the lips it would have been at that second right then and there! Oh crap, did I say that out loud?

    Ok, I know, TMI, TMI, but OH, what a shot and what a feeling to see that kid have the guts to take it.... BY FAR my favorite single Duke play of all time..... "The shot" against UK is a close second, but hey we had already banked a NC by that time, Life was good after living with the Duke teams of the early seventies until we finally got that first (btw do we still hold the record for the most trips to a FF without a NC?) we did at one time...

    I'll give up on pointing out factors that favor Hurley; it is obvious that you will just keep shooting me down with your inexhaustible basketball knowledge. In a court room with twelve unbiased jurors you would win the case, although I think we might be able to get some jury deliberation time.... but in my mind, BH was and always will be the best..... BTW I hardly ever convince anyone with my argument anyway…

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    Jim, you’re killing me here man, come on, enough with the facts.... let me have my man crush on Bobby Hurley already!! Hey, did I mention that Bobby hit that big shot against UNLV that lead to our first NC??? I mean come on man... If there ever was a time that I would have kissed another man on the lips it would have been at that second right then and there! Oh crap, did I say that out loud?

    Ok, I know, TMI, TMI, but OH, what a shot and what a feeling to see that kid have the guts to take it.... BY FAR my favorite single Duke play of all time..... "The shot" against UK is a close second, but hey we had already banked a NC by that time, Life was good after living with the Duke teams of the early seventies until we finally got that first (btw do we still hold the record for the most trips to a FF without a NC?) we did at one time...

    I'll give up on pointing out factors that favor Hurley; it is obvious that you will just keep shooting me down with your inexhaustible basketball knowledge. In a court room with twelve unbiased jurors you would win the case, although I think we might be able to get some jury deliberation time.... but in my mind, BH was and always will be the best..... BTW I hardly ever convince anyone with my argument anyway…
    I talked to Hurley about that shot for an article. He told me it was the "purest" shot he ever took and he knew it was good the second it left his hand.

    But nobody remembers the 3-point play Brian Davis made shortly afterwards, driving the baseline, hitting the banker, drawing the foul and making the freebie. A huge shot and from a role player, not a star.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I talked to Hurley about that shot for an article. He told me it was the "purest" shot he ever took and he knew it was good the second it left his hand.

    But nobody remembers the 3-point play Brian Davis made shortly afterwards, driving the baseline, hitting the banker, drawing the foul and making the freebie. A huge shot and from a role player, not a star.
    It was just a great game full of great moments wasn't it! The look on UNLV's collective faces was priceless... they had not been in that situation before and it showed...

  17. #77
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    Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I talked to Hurley about that shot for an article. He told me it was the "purest" shot he ever took and he knew it was good the second it left his hand.

    But nobody remembers the 3-point play Brian Davis made shortly afterwards, driving the baseline, hitting the banker, drawing the foul and making the freebie. A huge shot and from a role player, not a star.
    I remember the 3-point play by Brian Davis. Even the expression after he scored and the foul was called.He played huge in that Final Four.

  18. #78
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    This is a tough question. My first instinct is Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker so I'll go with it.
    Bob Green
    United States Navy (Retired)
    @JBobGreen

  19. #79
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    Most lethal offensive backcourt

    If I can choose any two guys that played on the same team as my Duke backcourt, I'll take Jdub and Dunleavy from 01/02. I personally thought those two were 1A and 1B, the best players in the country that season. The draft that year reflected such sentiments. Might have some defensive liabilities with Mike guarding the two spot, but since they would score pretty much every time, who cares?

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    If I can choose any two guys that played on the same team as my Duke backcourt, I'll take Jdub and Dunleavy from 01/02. I personally thought those two were 1A and 1B, the best players in the country that season. The draft that year reflected such sentiments. Might have some defensive liabilities with Mike guarding the two spot, but since they would score pretty much every time, who cares?
    Dunleavy played small forward in 2001 and power forward in 2002. So, that's a pretty broad definition of backcourt.

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