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Thread: 2012 NBA Draft

  1. #421
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Figured I'd bump this as the season draws to an end. I know there was a big discussion on Beal v. Waiters and it seems both sides have won as of now. I was wrong on Waiters as he clearly seems to be a very good player and most have him as a top 5 rookie. But at the same time, Beal has probably been better and likewise, has been ranked as a top 5 rookie. Both players obviously struggled at points to adapt but showed some growth throughout the year and redrafts have them going exactly as they did in the draft with Lillard jumping up to #2.

    I guess the discussion still isn't complete b/c I think Beal will still be the better player long term. He shot 45.5% from 3 post ASB while Waiters was around 32%. I know that isn't Waiters game but I think that will be what separates them long term. Both shot over 45% from the field post ASB. But I will concede that Waiters game has translated pretty well to the NBA and while not watching a ton of Cavs games, I'd imagine they will look to him to penetrate more b/c of his body type and the injuries to Kyrie, they'll probably want Kyrie to stay away from contact.
    I agree on Waiters - I was definitely wrong about him. He's clearly got potential, and will hopefully be a great offensive asset to Kyrie. But the Cavs are just terrible. Terrible. Offensively, they'll be good. With Kyrie at the helm, they'll be set for a few years. But defensively, this team is horrific. Kyrie either a) doesn't want to play defense, b) simply not good at defense, or c) isn't taught how to play defense. IMO, I think it's a combination of all three. Kyrie may be a competent defensive player in the future, but he'll never be Russell Westbrook.

    The Cavs need a defensive player in the draft, and there are two amazing ones in Porter and Noel. There is a strong chance that the Cavs get one of them.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  2. #422
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Figured I'd bump this as the season draws to an end. I know there was a big discussion on Beal v. Waiters and it seems both sides have won as of now. I was wrong on Waiters as he clearly seems to be a very good player and most have him as a top 5 rookie. But at the same time, Beal has probably been better and likewise, has been ranked as a top 5 rookie. Both players obviously struggled at points to adapt but showed some growth throughout the year and redrafts have them going exactly as they did in the draft with Lillard jumping up to #2.

    I guess the discussion still isn't complete b/c I think Beal will still be the better player long term. He shot 45.5% from 3 post ASB while Waiters was around 32%. I know that isn't Waiters game but I think that will be what separates them long term. Both shot over 45% from the field post ASB. But I will concede that Waiters game has translated pretty well to the NBA and while not watching a ton of Cavs games, I'd imagine they will look to him to penetrate more b/c of his body type and the injuries to Kyrie, they'll probably want Kyrie to stay away from contact.
    It's cool to see how a guy like Damian Lillard really takes control of a team. 19.1 points, 6.5 assists, 37% from 3.

    He would probably go #2 overall today with Drummond going 3rd.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    It's cool to see how a guy like Damian Lillard really takes control of a team. 19.1 points, 6.5 assists, 37% from 3.

    He would probably go #2 overall today with Drummond going 3rd.
    And nobody in the NBA would have looked at him out of high school- a 2 star recruit. Funny how nobody understands that 18 year old kids develop at different rates.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I agree on Waiters - I was definitely wrong about him. He's clearly got potential, and will hopefully be a great offensive asset to Kyrie. But the Cavs are just terrible. Terrible. Offensively, they'll be good. With Kyrie at the helm, they'll be set for a few years. But defensively, this team is horrific. Kyrie either a) doesn't want to play defense, b) simply not good at defense, or c) isn't taught how to play defense. IMO, I think it's a combination of all three. Kyrie may be a competent defensive player in the future, but he'll never be Russell Westbrook.

    The Cavs need a defensive player in the draft, and there are two amazing ones in Porter and Noel. There is a strong chance that the Cavs get one of them.
    I'd also assume Scott's days are numbered. Haven't read much into it but their defense is the butt of a ton of jokes so I can't imagine they won't make the switch to a defensive oriented guy.

  5. #425
    A debate has started on the 2013 Early Entry thread about whether underclassmen should declare. I decided to pull a list off of the NBA website from 2012 (which seems to be not the final one since one of the players apparently withdrew and played a college season this year) and find out what happened to all of the players. Out of the 48 players (not counting the guy who withdrew) 25 of them were drafted in the first round and 5 were drafted in the second round. Justin Hamilton is the only second round pick that did not sign with an NBA team. He was also the only player not in the NBA to have what would be considered a decent overseas season. Maalik Wayns was the only undrafted player to get some NBA time and make any decent money. Among the other undrafted players, a couple of other players had decent D League seasons and Terrell Stoglin had a solid enough season overseas, although it was not for a particularly high level team and the salary was probably not that lucrative. A lot of players struggled to have a team for most of the season and a few may have dealt with injuries. Quite a few of them do not appear to have played any competitive basketball games thus far although some of them might not have been serious entries with the players probably not expecting to be drafted or to continue playing basketball, although some appear to have tried, but not found a gig. One guy is not playing, but he did apparently graduate.

    Erik Austin, Jackson CC (MI), Unknown
    Harrison Barnes, North Carolina, NBA First Round
    Will Barton, Memphis, NBA Second Round
    Bradley Beal, Florida, NBA First Round
    JCovan Brown, Texas, Lowlevel Europe (partial season)
    Dominic Cheek, Villanova, Unknown, did not catch on in D-League or Lowlevel Europe
    Jared Cunningham, Oregon State, NBA First Round
    Anthony Davis, Kentucky, NBA First Round
    Andre Drummond, Connecticut, NBA First Round
    Dominique Ferguson, Florida International, Canada (partial season)
    Justin Hamilton, LSU, Drafted in Second Round, Midlevel Europe
    Moe Harkless, St. Johns, NBA First Round
    John Henson, North Carolina, NBA First Round
    John Jenkins, Vanderbilt, NBA First Round
    Perry Jones III, Baylor, NBA First Round
    Terrence Jones, Kentucky, NBA First Round
    Xavier Jones, Missouri State-West Plains, Unknown
    Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Kentucky, NBA First Round
    Doron Lamb, Kentucky, NBA Second Round
    Jeremy Lamb, Connecticut, NBA First Round
    Meyers Leonard, Illinois, NBA First Round
    Damian Lillard, Weber State, NBA First Round
    Kendall Marshall, North Carolina, NBA First Round
    Fab Melo, Syracuse, NBA First Round
    Khris Middleton, Texas A&M, NBA Second Round
    Quincy Miller, Baylor, NBA Second Round
    Tony Mitchell, Alabama, D League
    Arnett Moultrie, Mississippi State, NBA First Round
    Reeves Nelson, UCLA/Zalgiris (Lithuania), D League (partial season)
    Austin Rivers, Duke, NBA First Round
    Peter Roberson, Grambling State, Withdrew
    Quincy Roberts, Grambling State, Unknown, Graduated
    Thomas Robinson, Kansas, NBA First Round
    Terrence Ross, Washington, NBA First Round
    Avery Scharer, Shoreline CC (WA), Unknown
    Renardo Sidney, Mississippi State, Unknown, Injuries in D League
    Jonathon Simmons, Houston, Unknown
    Terrell Stoglin, Maryland, Lowlevel Europe
    Gerardo Suero, Albany, Dominican Republic (low level)
    Jared Sullinger, Ohio State, NBA First Round
    Marquis Teague, Kentucky, NBA First Round
    Joston Thomas, Hawaii, Extreme Lowlevel Europe (partial season?)
    Hollis Thompson, Georgetown, D League
    Richard Townsend-Gant, Vancouver Island University, Unknown
    Dion Waiters, Syracuse, NBA First Round
    Maalik Wayns, Villanova, NBA, D League
    Royce White, Iowa State, NBA First Round
    DAngelo Williams, Notre Dame de Namur (CA), Unknown
    Tony Wroten, Washington, NBA First Round

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    Figured I'd bump this as the season draws to an end. I know there was a big discussion on Beal v. Waiters and it seems both sides have won as of now. I was wrong on Waiters as he clearly seems to be a very good player and most have him as a top 5 rookie. But at the same time, Beal has probably been better and likewise, has been ranked as a top 5 rookie. Both players obviously struggled at points to adapt but showed some growth throughout the year and redrafts have them going exactly as they did in the draft with Lillard jumping up to #2.

    I guess the discussion still isn't complete b/c I think Beal will still be the better player long term. He shot 45.5% from 3 post ASB while Waiters was around 32%. I know that isn't Waiters game but I think that will be what separates them long term. Both shot over 45% from the field post ASB. But I will concede that Waiters game has translated pretty well to the NBA and while not watching a ton of Cavs games, I'd imagine they will look to him to penetrate more b/c of his body type and the injuries to Kyrie, they'll probably want Kyrie to stay away from contact.
    Good summary. As I did before the draft, I expect both these guys to be good NBA players. A couple of things surprised me here; Beal hit threes at a much higher clip than he did in college, but some guys are simply more suited to the pro game. And Waiters hasn't been as good as I thought he'd be right away. That said, he's shown plenty of promise -- check out his numbers in February -- and anyone who can do THIS probably has a future in this league.

    I actually agree with you that Beal is probably the better player. But that was never really of consequence, at least not to the Cavs. Even if they actually thought Waiters was better, they really just needed him to be good enough relative to Beal to justify not trading ahead of Washington to get Beal. And as my perpetual reminder, the only way Charlotte was reportedly coughing up the No. 2 pick was if Cleveland would accept Tyrus Thomas, the worst player in the NBA and a massive locker room cancer to boot. Even for a rebuilding team, it'd have been preposterous to take on three years of this guy unless you were convinced Beal was, like, a much, much better player than Waiters.

    And of course, Lillard is better than both of them. I guess if you're a team with either John Wall or Kyrie... I mean, I'm not sure, everyone seemed to think Lillard was a total slam dunk. I'd like to say I'd have been tempted to take him anyway, regardless of positional need, and figure something out. But who knows?

  7. #427
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by awhom111 View Post
    A debate has started on the 2013 Early Entry thread about whether underclassmen should declare. I decided to pull a list off of the NBA website from 2012 (which seems to be not the final one since one of the players apparently withdrew and played a college season this year) and find out what happened to all of the players. Out of the 48 players (not counting the guy who withdrew) 25 of them were drafted in the first round and 5 were drafted in the second round. Justin Hamilton is the only second round pick that did not sign with an NBA team. He was also the only player not in the NBA to have what would be considered a decent overseas season. Maalik Wayns was the only undrafted player to get some NBA time and make any decent money. Among the other undrafted players, a couple of other players had decent D League seasons and Terrell Stoglin had a solid enough season overseas, although it was not for a particularly high level team and the salary was probably not that lucrative. A lot of players struggled to have a team for most of the season and a few may have dealt with injuries. Quite a few of them do not appear to have played any competitive basketball games thus far although some of them might not have been serious entries with the players probably not expecting to be drafted or to continue playing basketball, although some appear to have tried, but not found a gig. One guy is not playing, but he did apparently graduate.

    d
    This may read better, or not?

    Code:
    		
     NBA First Round		
    Harrison Barnes	 North Carolina	
    Bradley Beal	 Florida	
    Jared Cunningham	 Oregon State	
    Anthony Davis	 Kentucky	
    Andre Drummond	 Connecticut	
    Moe Harkless	 St. Johns	
    John Henson	 North Carolina	
    John Jenkins	 Vanderbilt	
    Perry Jones III	 Baylor	
    Terrence Jones	 Kentucky	
    Michael Kidd-Gilchrist	 Kentucky	
    Jeremy Lamb	 Connecticut	
    Meyers Leonard	 Illinois	
    Damian Lillard	 Weber State	
    Kendall Marshall	 North Carolina	
    Fab Melo	 Syracuse	
    Arnett Moultrie	 Mississippi State	
    Austin Rivers	 Duke	
    Thomas Robinson	 Kansas	
    Terrence Ross	 Washington	
    Jared Sullinger	 Ohio State	
    Marquis Teague	 Kentucky	
    Dion Waiters	 Syracuse	
    Royce White	 Iowa State	
    Tony Wroten	 Washington
    	
     NBA Second Round		
    Will Barton	 Memphis	
    Doron Lamb	 Kentucky	
    Khris Middleton	 Texas A&M	
    Quincy Miller	 Baylor	
    Justin Hamilton	 LSU	Played in Europe
    
    Other		
    Maalik Wayns	 Villanova	 NBA Signed as Free Agent
    Dominique Ferguson	 Florida International	 Canada (partial season)
    Tony Mitchell	 Alabama	 D League
    Hollis Thompson	 Georgetown	 D League
    Reeves Nelson	 UCLA/Zalgiris (Lithuania)	 D League (partial season)
    Gerardo Suero	 Albany	 Dominican Republic (low level)
    Joston Thomas	 Hawaii	 Extreme Lowlevel Europe (partial season?)
    Terrell Stoglin	 Maryland	 Lowlevel Europe
    JCovan Brown	 Texas	 Lowlevel Europe (partial season)
    Erik Austin	 Jackson CC (MI)	 Unknown
    Dominic Cheek	 Villanova	 Unknown
    Xavier Jones	 Missouri State-West Plains	 Unknown
    Quincy Roberts	 Grambling State	 Unknown
    Avery Scharer	 Shoreline CC (WA)	 Unknown
    Renardo Sidney	 Mississippi State	 Unknown
    Jonathon Simmons	 Houston	 Unknown
    Richard Townsend-Gant	 Vancouver Island University	 Unknown
    DAngelo Williams	 Notre Dame de Namur (CA)	 Unknown
    Peter Roberson	 Grambling State	 Withdrew
    Impressive that 25 of the 30 first-round NBA selections came from early entry.

    sagegrouse

  8. #428
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    cleaned it up a little for ya...
    Code:
    Erik Austin, 			Jackson CC (MI), 		Unknown
    Harrison Barnes, 		North Carolina, 		NBA First Round
    Will Barton, 			Memphis, 			NBA Second Round
    Bradley Beal, 			Florida, 			NBA First Round
    JCovan Brown, 			Texas, 				Lowlevel Europe (partial season)
    Dominic Cheek, 			Villanova, 			Unknown, did not catch on in D-League or Lowlevel Europe
    Jared Cunningham, 		Oregon State, 			NBA First Round
    Anthony Davis, 			Kentucky, 			NBA First Round
    Andre Drummond, 		Connecticut, 			NBA First Round
    Dominique Ferguson, 		Florida International, 		Canada (partial season)
    Justin Hamilton, 		LSU, 				Drafted in Second Round, Midlevel Europe
    Moe Harkless, 			St. Johns, 			NBA First Round
    John Henson, 			North Carolina, 		NBA First Round
    John Jenkins, 			Vanderbilt, 			NBA First Round
    Perry Jones III, 		Baylor, 			NBA First Round
    Terrence Jones, 		Kentucky, 			NBA First Round
    Xavier Jones, 			Missouri State-West Plains, 	Unknown
    Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, 	Kentucky, 			NBA First Round
    Doron Lamb, 			Kentucky, 			NBA Second Round
    Jeremy Lamb, 			Connecticut, 			NBA First Round
    Meyers Leonard, 		Illinois, 			NBA First Round
    Damian Lillard, 		Weber State, 			NBA First Round
    Kendall Marshall, 		North Carolina, 		NBA First Round
    Fab Melo, 			Syracuse, 			NBA First Round
    Khris Middleton, 		Texas A&M, 			NBA Second Round
    Quincy Miller, 			Baylor, 			NBA Second Round
    Tony Mitchell, 			Alabama, 			D League
    Arnett Moultrie, 		Mississippi State, 		NBA First Round
    Reeves Nelson, 			UCLA/Zalgiris (Lithuania), 	D League (partial season)
    Austin Rivers, 			Duke, 				NBA First Round
    Peter Roberson, 		Grambling State, 		Withdrew
    Quincy Roberts, 		Grambling State, 		Unknown, Graduated
    Thomas Robinson, 		Kansas, 			NBA First Round
    Terrence Ross, 			Washington, 			NBA First Round
    Avery Scharer, 			Shoreline CC (WA), 		Unknown
    Renardo Sidney, 		Mississippi State, 		Unknown, Injuries in D League
    Jonathon Simmons, 		Houston, 			Unknown
    Terrell Stoglin, 		Maryland, 			Lowlevel Europe
    Gerardo Suero, 			Albany, 			Dominican Republic (low level)
    Jared Sullinger, 		Ohio State, 			NBA First Round
    Marquis Teague, 		Kentucky, 			NBA First Round
    Joston Thomas, 			Hawaii, 			Extreme Lowlevel Europe (partial season?)
    Hollis Thompson, 		Georgetown, 			D League
    Richard Townsend-Gant,		Vancouver Island University, 	Unknown
    Dion Waiters, 			Syracuse, 			NBA First Round
    Maalik Wayns, 			Villanova, 			NBA, D League
    Royce White, 			Iowa State, 			NBA First Round
    DAngelo Williams, 		Notre Dame de Namur (CA), 	Unknown
    Tony Wroten, 			Washington, 			NBA First Round

  9. #429
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    I'd also assume Scott's days are numbered. Haven't read much into it but their defense is the butt of a ton of jokes so I can't imagine they won't make the switch to a defensive oriented guy.
    The problem is that Scott signed a fat extension this year which guarantees him between $4MM - $5MM next year. Will Dan Gilbert pay two head coaches?

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    The problem is that Scott signed a fat extension this year which guarantees him between $4MM - $5MM next year. Will Dan Gilbert pay two head coaches?
    Yup, he will. I think if Kyrie's not on your side... well, then neither is anyone else.

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