Kendall Marshall Broken Elbow Watch

[BlueDevilBrowns]

So it looks like Marshall not only broke his wrist but also broke his elbow, too.

LINK:http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspor...-broken-elbow/

It really makes you wonder why Ol Roy even attempted to have Marshall play back in March as it seems that he STILL hasn't been able to practice full-contact yet.

[gumbomoop]

So it looks like Marshall not only broke his wrist but also broke his elbow, too.

LINK:http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspor...-broken-elbow/

It really makes you wonder why Ol Roy even attempted to have Marshall play back in March as it seems that he STILL hasn't been able to practice full-contact yet.

Based on some very informative posts by several physicians [Kendall Marshall Wrist Watch thread], I stated that it would be irresponsible for Roy to play Marshall.

This latest news confirms my opinion, but in fairness, I'll amend my view to say that one of two things was going on: either [1] Roy was actually considering playing Marshall - "... if Kendall can deal with the pain, blah, blah" - in which case, he was being irresponsible; or [2] he knew that Kendall couldn't heal for weeks/months, had no intention whatsoever of playing him, and was simply being understandably coy, knowing it would be hard to win without Marshall, and not wanting to give opponents advance knowledge of Marshall's unavailability.

I'm willing to give Roy Williams the benefit of the doubt, and say, ok, [2] was maybe what was going on. I'm unwilling, however, absent a strong counter-argument, to concede that if [1] was going on, Roy was behaving responsibly.

Good luck to Marshall. The portrait of him in the article is positive, noting as it does his wit, intelligence, and good sense, the latter especially in dealing with those Carolina fans who are now coming at him "sideways" because of his decision to leave.

[Newton_14]

Based on some very informative posts by several physicians [Kendall Marshall Wrist Watch thread], I stated that it would be irresponsible for Roy to play Marshall.

This latest news confirms my opinion, but in fairness, I'll amend my view to say that one of two things was going on: either [1] Roy was actually considering playing Marshall - "... if Kendall can deal with the pain, blah, blah" - in which case, he was being irresponsible; or [2] he knew that Kendall couldn't heal for weeks/months, had no intention whatsoever of playing him, and was simply being understandably coy, knowing it would be hard to win without Marshall, and not wanting to give opponents advance knowledge of Marshall's unavailability.

I'm willing to give Roy Williams the benefit of the doubt, and say, ok, [2] was maybe what was going on. I'm unwilling, however, absent a strong counter-argument, to concede that if [1] was going on, Roy was behaving responsibly.

Good luck to Marshall. The portrait of him in the article is positive, noting as it does his wit, intelligence, and good sense, the latter especially in dealing with those Carolina fans who are now coming at him "sideways" because of his decision to leave.

With this revelation, I fully believe it was option 2. I believe the injury was known to be a season ending injury and they withheld the info about the elbow. KM was done for the season, and they just chose not to reveal it.

In fairness, we did the same thing with Kelly. No matter how far we advanced I don't believe Ryan would have played. Even though he dressed out, he did not participate in warm ups with the team that night in Greensboro. Ryan had surgery and has been rehabbing ever since. Per twitter he is close to being ready to hit the court again.

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, to say that Roy was being irresponsible because he "even considered" playing Marshall is a pretty biased view. They did the right thing with him. It was actually Marshall's father who was spouting off about maybe he could play if they made it to the final four...

I'm a little surprised he didn't stay at UNC for another year given the extent of his injuries. On the other hand, maybe he thought he wouldn't be at full strength next season and would slip in the draft, so he needed to go now. Good luck to him, he's a fun player to watch and I'll be interested to see how well he does at the next level.

[gumbomoop]

Yeah, to say that Roy was being irresponsible because he "even considered" playing Marshall is a pretty biased view.

I am not a fan of Roy Williams. However, in this particular case, as I noted above, and several times in the earlier Marshall Wrist Watch thread, my position was heavily influenced by, indeed squarely based on, the unanimous opinion of the 4 [IIRC] physicians who posted their well-informed views. During that earlier thread, no one refuted their professional judgment. I vaguely recall one or two posters sort of dancing around the physician-posters' unanimous position, but no one directly confronted their judgment.

Having said all that, I repeat that I'm willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt, and agree that it's likely he did not really "even consider" playing Marshall. It does, however - not to put too fine a point on it - require giving him the benefit of the doubt, because of course publicly he acted and said things that implied he was considering playing Marshall.

[Chicago 1995]

I'd be all for the theory that Roy was pumping up Kendall's chances of playing simply as gamesmanship to give his opponents something more to prep for EXCEPT that Kendall practiced before the Kansas game.

If Marshall's wrist and elbow were this injured, it seems incredibly irresponsible (but completely Roy) to let Kendall even practice on a limited basis. But he did practice.

[jv001]

As much as I dislike old roy, I have to say that even he would not have played marshall with those serious injuries. Good coaching by keeping the opponent in the dark as how to prepare for the heels. GoDuke!

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I'd be all for the theory that Roy was pumping up Kendall's chances of playing simply as gamesmanship to give his opponents something more to prep for EXCEPT that Kendall practiced before the Kansas game.

If Marshall's wrist and elbow were this injured, it seems incredibly irresponsible (but completely Roy) to let Kendall even practice on a limited basis. But he did practice.

This is what I was referencing to when I started the thread. If indeed KM DID practice, how crazy on Roy's part to allow it. If KM DIDN'T practice, why lie about it, because, as I recall, Ol Roy revealed KM practicing AFTER he ruled Kendall out of the next game.

It just seems that, again, Williams let his mouth do the talking without realizing what was coming out.

[robobevan]

Is this any different from the situation with Ryan Kelly. We were told he had a sprain and it later turns out he actually had a fracture of his fifth metatarsal.

[gumbomoop]

Is this any different from the situation with Ryan Kelly. We were told he had a sprain and it later turns out he actually had a fracture of his fifth metatarsal.

The biggest difference is the nature of the injury. According to reports at the time, and confirmed by our physician-posters, Marshall's injury was to an unusually delicate, unique bone, and potentially life-changing if the bone were to be re-injured before completely healed. Specifically, it involves the unusual nature of the blood-supply to the thumb. If not completely healed, the acute danger is that the bone would "die," thus becoming rigid thereafter. [I'm happy to accept corrections to this description from any of our physician-posters.]

Thus, risking such a re-injury is risking not only Marshall's bball career, but any future functional use of his right thumb.

It's a freak situation, involving this "freak" blood-supply danger-situation. While it might seem superficially similar to any break that might subsequently have proved to be more serious, Marshall's injury was not just a little different. It's way, way different, as breaks go, despite the fact that it seems a fairly routine injury.

I repeat: I'll be happy to accept corrections from our physician-posters, who can expertly modify any misleading or inaccurate statements I've made here.

I'll further repeat: I'm inclined to bend over backwards and give Roy the benefit of the doubt. But one does have to bend over pretty far.

[Johnny Chill]

So it was a fractured wrist, now fractured elbow, I'm waiting for the separated shoulder and broken thumb update.

[BD80]

So it was a fractured wrist, now fractured elbow, I'm waiting for the separated shoulder and broken thumb update.

I can't believe ol' roy even considered playing Marshall even though both legs and an arm had to be amputated. In ol' roys defense, Marshall was still the best passer on the team.

[CDu]

I can't believe ol' roy even considered playing Marshall even though both legs and an arm had to be amputated. In ol' roys defense, Marshall was still the best passer on the team.

We don't know that Williams ever considered playing Marshall. Marshall's dad was the only one on record saying he might come back, and members of the media were speculating on the possibility. Williams was pretty consistent with his "if he had to play today, he wouldn't be able to go" stance. Thankfully, we don't have to find out. But I don't think there was really any chance of Marshall playing in the Final Four had the Heels made it there.

[BD80]

I can't believe ol' roy even considered playing Marshall even though both legs and an arm had to be amputated. In ol' roys defense, Marshall was still the best passer on the team.

We don't know that Williams ever considered playing Marshall. ...

That's what you got from the post? I guess I should have gone overboard with the sarcasm.

[CDu]

That's what you got from the post? I guess I should have gone overboard with the sarcasm.

My post was in response to several that implied Williams seriously considered playing Marshall. Sorry for missing your sarcasm.

[gumbomoop]

We don't know that Williams ever considered playing Marshall. Marshall's dad was the only one on record saying he might come back, and members of the media were speculating on the possibility. Williams was pretty consistent with his "if he had to play today, he wouldn't be able to go" stance.

Although my position is that I'm willing to [bend over backwards and] give Williams the benefit of the doubt, the evidence about whether he "ever considered playing Marshall' is murkier than what you imply here. If it's accurate to say "we don't know," that's more a case that we can't know exactly what Roy's several comments that week mean than it is a case that we can know he rejected any possibility of Marshall's further playing.

Sometimes it helps to pin down what people agree on, and then try to get at the disagreements. There seems now to be some consensus [not unanimity, but still....] in this thread on 2 points:

• [a] That - explicitly or implicitly giving special weight to the several physicians who have posted on this issue - it would have been extremely dangerous for Marshall to have played.
• [b] That - bending over backwards, at least a little - Roy was just practicing some sensible gamesmanship, not wanting opponents to know that Marshall probably couldn't play.

The consensus about [a] makes some judgment about whether Roy "ever considered playing Marshall" a touchy subject, which we have sort of solved with consensus [b].

What do we know about what Roy was considering? I guess all we know is what Roy said [if quoted accurately] between the Creighton and Ohio games: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...-removed-wrist

1. "...if something weird happens that they say he can play, I'm probably going to let the guy play. But I just do not foresee that happening."
2. "... I have said honestly, I do not know."

And then between the Ohio and Kansas games, this: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...not-ready-play

3. "Today's the first day he's bounced a ball. It's the first day he's caught a ball. It's the first day that he's shot a ball. We kept him out of all the live stuff. Now we want to see if it bothers him or if it pains him or if it swells up or if his toes curl or whatever happens next. And then tomorrow at shootaround, we'll try to probably do the same thing."

4. "And then there's two things that have to happen: One, he has to feel comfortable that he's not hurting. And then two, I have to decide, can he be effective in the game with his situation?"

IMO, one has to bend over somewhat, in the matter of giving Roy the benefit of the doubt, to assert that Roy "never considered playing Marshall." It strikes me that the more logical conclusion about each of the 4 Roy-statements - and even more about the overall thrust of the 4 taken together - is that Roy was "considering" the possibility of playing Marshall. My translation of these statements, individually and collectively, is: Roy Williams thought it unlikely Marshall could play, but that if he could play effectively, Roy would let him play.

It's a stretch, for me, to conclude that what Roy actually said lends support to the view that he "never considered playing Marshall." That, as CDu states, Roy was pretty consistent in saying some version of "Marshall can't go yet," seems to me a different thing than concluding Roy wasn't "considering" Marshall's playing later in the tournament.

Given the unusually dangerous nature of this particular injury [see post #10 and the physician-posts in the Kendal Marshall Wrist Watch thread], it would have been irresponsible for Roy Williams to have allowed Marshall to play. To be sure, the word "irresponsible" is pretty blunt. Was it therefore also irresponsible even to have "considered" playing Marshall? I suspect, but cannot know for sure, that we have reached consensus [b] to avoid that question. I do know that my own bending over backwards to participate, if reluctantly, in consensus [b] is that I don't, in the end, really want to know the truth.

[sagegrouse]

IMO, one has to bend over somewhat, in the matter of giving Roy the benefit of the doubt, to assert that Roy "never considered playing Marshall." It strikes me that the more logical conclusion about each of the 4 Roy-statements - and even more about the overall thrust of the 4 taken together - is that Roy was "considering" the possibility of playing Marshall. My translation of these statements, individually and collectively, is: Roy Williams thought it unlikely Marshall could play, but that if he could play effectively, Roy would let him play.

.

To paraphrase the old saw, "playing time could break his bones, but words will never hurt him." Absent any actions, I don't see how one can conclude anything about evil intent.

sage

[throatybeard]

Kendall Marshall Broken Elbow Watch

Why does he wear his watch on his elbow?

[gumbomoop]

To paraphrase the old saw, "playing time could break his bones, but words will never hurt him." Absent any actions, I don't see how one can conclude anything about evil intent.

I'll demur from the word "evil," as the word "irresponsible" is blunt enough, raised as a possibility, but not a certainty.

Nor do I - agreeing with you, I think - claim that we can "conclude anything" with absolute certainty about what Roy was considering. I've yet to see a counter-argument, however, that considers either the many posts by our physician-experts or the evidence in Roy Williams's comments. To consider the evidence, for example, might involve a different and more persuasive analysis than that which I have posted. I can imagine that, but so far that's all I can do. It's harder for me even to imagine a different take on what our physician-experts have posted, for they were unanimous, straightforward, and blunt.

I've admitted that I myself, having considered the evidence as best I can, still hesitate to push these troubling issues as far as they could be pushed. It's one thing to blast Roy for his embarrassing ejection of the Presbyterian fan, for his rantings against Carolina fans' impertinent questions, or for his occasional, unbecoming toss-'em-under-the-bus statements. This issue is a lot deeper.

[Newton_14]

I'll demur from the word "evil," as the word "irresponsible" is blunt enough, raised as a possibility, but not a certainty.

Nor do I - agreeing with you, I think - claim that we can "conclude anything" with absolute certainty about what Roy was considering. I've yet to see a counter-argument, however, that considers either the many posts by our physician-experts or the evidence in Roy Williams's comments. To consider the evidence, for example, might involve a different and more persuasive analysis than that which I have posted. I can imagine that, but so far that's all I can do. It's harder for me even to imagine a different take on what our physician-experts have posted, for they were unanimous, straightforward, and blunt.

I've admitted that I myself, having considered the evidence as best I can, still hesitate to push these troubling issues as far as they could be pushed. It's one thing to blast Roy for his embarrassing ejection of the Presbyterian fan, for his rantings against Carolina fans' impertinent questions, or for his occasional, unbecoming toss-'em-under-the-bus statements. This issue is a lot deeper.

I have commented before on this, but one further point. I read somewhere back when this injury happened, that Roy stated, that after seeing Ty Lawson's toe the day after the Duke game where they shot it up and let the kid play, that he would never allow that again, no matter the stakes. I have ridiculed the man many times (and fairly so, as he makes it easy), but I do take him at his word here. Even without the elbow factor, I believe it was 100% gamesmanship. I don't think Roy ever realistically considered playing Marshall the remainder of the tourney. I believe Roy knew Marshall was done for the season, but he wanted to keep the media and remaining teams guessing so they would have to prepare to play UNC both with and without KM.

Just my opinion. Roy is guilty of many things but risking a kid's livelihood and career is just not something I feel he would chance.