Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 39 of 39
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Poor Vlade crashed onto his butt at the mere mention of his name in your post
    Bad thing is that when Vlade fell, they gave Shavlik and Miles personal fouls and called a T on Daniel Ewing!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    K and Patrick are friends and always busting each others chops.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Ryan Kelly flops alot. I agree with you that K and the staff teach proper defense and to not shy away from taking contact to draw a charging call, anticipation and etc., like you said. However, Duke has some floppers, like Kelly. However, Duke also had the King of Charges-taken, Battier, whose anticipation and positioning led to charges other floppers only dream of getting.
    Have to agree here. The worst Kelly flop of the year by far was in the State game when Lorenzo Brown dunked on him. Ryan needs to get better at actually drawing the contact. He bails a split second too soon which will lead to a blocking call or no call almost every time. On the Brown play he got hit with the blocking call.

    I have seen Coach K teach the bigs in practice on getting to the spot and bracing for the charge vs initiating the contact reaching in/over to block the shot. He stated that the latter would be a foul call on the defender 99% of the time. I agree with the philosophy, but my only issue is when the offensive player is a smallish guard. Going for the block on the smallish player is the better play IMO, at least in certain situations. If a 6'11 guy cannot block the shot of a 5'11-6'1/6'2 guard without fouling, then shame on him.

    As for penalty for flopping, I would be ok for it to be an automatic foul on the defender and in cases of a blatantly obvious flop where the whole world clearly sees there was no contact, then hit the defender with a Technical. That would go a long way to stopping it.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    On the couch
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Have to agree here. The worst Kelly flop of the year by far was in the State game when Lorenzo Brown dunked on him. Ryan needs to get better at actually drawing the contact. He bails a split second too soon which will lead to a blocking call or no call almost every time. On the Brown play he got hit with the blocking call.

    I have seen Coach K teach the bigs in practice on getting to the spot and bracing for the charge vs initiating the contact reaching in/over to block the shot. He stated that the latter would be a foul call on the defender 99% of the time. I agree with the philosophy, but my only issue is when the offensive player is a smallish guard. Going for the block on the smallish player is the better play IMO, at least in certain situations. If a 6'11 guy cannot block the shot of a 5'11-6'1/6'2 guard without fouling, then shame on him.

    As for penalty for flopping, I would be ok for it to be an automatic foul on the defender and in cases of a blatantly obvious flop where the whole world clearly sees there was no contact, then hit the defender with a Technical. That would go a long way to stopping it.
    Funny thing about this post. I watched about ten seconds of a Pacers game a day or so ago and guess who flopped and got the call...... come, his name begins with Tyler and his last name begins with Hansbrough. I just laughed out loud and flopped, I mean flipped the channel.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Have to agree here. The worst Kelly flop of the year by far was in the State game when Lorenzo Brown dunked on him. Ryan needs to get better at actually drawing the contact. He bails a split second too soon which will lead to a blocking call or no call almost every time. On the Brown play he got hit with the blocking call.

    I have seen Coach K teach the bigs in practice on getting to the spot and bracing for the charge vs initiating the contact reaching in/over to block the shot. He stated that the latter would be a foul call on the defender 99% of the time. I agree with the philosophy, but my only issue is when the offensive player is a smallish guard. Going for the block on the smallish player is the better play IMO, at least in certain situations. If a 6'11 guy cannot block the shot of a 5'11-6'1/6'2 guard without fouling, then shame on him.

    As for penalty for flopping, I would be ok for it to be an automatic foul on the defender and in cases of a blatantly obvious flop where the whole world clearly sees there was no contact, then hit the defender with a Technical. That would go a long way to stopping it.
    How do the refs make the flopping call, blocking, if you prefer, on a defensive player? What about the charging call on an offensive player? We seem to be concentrating on the defense here, but the refs make as many errors on the block as they do on the charge. Let's not mess with playing rules. Train the refs better is my answer. The block call is the refs responsibility, as is the charge. If they make either call play stops, anyhow, so why not allow the refs to review the play, if requested by a head coach of either team. Let's get it right. Scores over 125 would become common if we take away the defense's right to stand their ground. Oops, Florida has a law on that.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    K and Patrick are friends and always busting each others chops.
    I can't believe this hadn't been said until the 22nd post...

    I listen to Patrick all the time. He loves Coach K. Whenever coach is on, the two of them go at it (in a brotherly or friendly type of way)...

    There is not a single doubt in my mind that Patrick was just trying to have some fun.

    -As for the topic of flopping in general, I agree something needs to be done. It would be great to have some sort of in-game penalty but the plays are so subjective that it would only bring on more controversy IMO. I like the idea of having the league review questionable plays after the game and giving out suspensions or something like that though. It would definitely make guys think twice.

    I have heard the idea of fining the players but I am completely against that. You would have to fine them absurd amounts to actually effect them. I think that when a professional sports league fines their millionaire players amounts of money that some people don't even make in a year, they make themselves look very bad.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    K.I.S.S -- Simple Enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    How do the refs make the flopping call, blocking, if you prefer, on a defensive player? What about the charging call on an offensive player? We seem to be concentrating on the defense here, but the refs make as many errors on the block as they do on the charge. Let's not mess with playing rules. Train the refs better is my answer. The block call is the refs responsibility, as is the charge. If they make either call play stops, anyhow, so why not allow the refs to review the play, if requested by a head coach of either team. Let's get it right. Scores over 125 would become common if we take away the defense's right to stand their ground. Oops, Florida has a law on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    -As for the topic of flopping in general, I agree something needs to be done. It would be great to have some sort of in-game penalty but the plays are so subjective that it would only bring on more controversy IMO. I like the idea of having the league review questionable plays after the game and giving out suspensions or something like that though. It would definitely make guys think twice.

    I have heard the idea of fining the players but I am completely against that. You would have to fine them absurd amounts to actually effect them. I think that when a professional sports league fines their millionaire players amounts of money that some people don't even make in a year, they make themselves look very bad.
    I started this sub-thread on the topic of review and punishment for players who flop. Let me modify and extend my remarks, as the good Congressmen and Congresswomen say. Remember when Miles Plumlee was called for an elbow against Scott Wood of NC State? In the process of reviewing whether it was a first or second degree technical, it became clear that Miles never touched Wood and that Wood faked the entire thing. There was no contact whatsoever. It was clear as a bell to the referees who reviewed the play, but they had no recourse. That is the definition of a flop that I would sanction: a player falls to the court without getting touched.

    On the spot, give the offending player a technical foul. After the fact, in the post-game review by the league, give him a warning. The second offense gets a one-game suspension.

    No, I wouldn't try to unravel the block-charge conundrum. I would go after the total fakers. And the refs can do it during the game or the league can do it afterwards. And if a player falls down in anticipation of contact that never occurred, he can avoid sanctions by fessing up to the refs on the spot.

    Simple enough? And there is no reason it wouldn't work in college or the NBA.

    sagegrouse

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    20 Minutes From The Heaven That Is Cameron Indoor
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I started this sub-thread on the topic of review and punishment for players who flop. Let me modify and extend my remarks, as the good Congressmen and Congresswomen say. Remember when Miles Plumlee was called for an elbow against Scott Wood of NC State? In the process of reviewing whether it was a first or second degree technical, it became clear that Miles never touched Wood and that Wood faked the entire thing. There was no contact whatsoever. It was clear as a bell to the referees who reviewed the play, but they had no recourse. That is the definition of a flop that I would sanction: a player falls to the court without getting touched.

    On the spot, give the offending player a technical foul. After the fact, in the post-game review by the league, give him a warning. The second offense gets a one-game suspension.

    No, I wouldn't try to unravel the block-charge conundrum. I would go after the total fakers. And the refs can do it during the game or the league can do it afterwards. And if a player falls down in anticipation of contact that never occurred, he can avoid sanctions by fessing up to the refs on the spot.

    Simple enough? And there is no reason it wouldn't work in college or the NBA.

    sagegrouse
    It was actually Tanner Smith in the Clemson game on that play, but that's exactly the type play I had in mind when suggesting a technical foul. That was not a block/charge play either. Smith flopped when it appeared Miles hit him in the face with an elbow, when actually as you point out, Miles never touched him.
    Last edited by Newton_14; 05-15-2012 at 09:11 PM.

    "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith."- Ashville Times
    "UNC and the NCAA are trying to conceal that the fraud was specifically designed to pad the transcripts of varsity athletes" - Bloomberg

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Remember when Miles Plumlee was called for an elbow against Scott Wood of NC State? In the process of reviewing whether it was a first or second degree technical, it became clear that Miles never touched Wood and that Wood faked the entire thing. There was no contact whatsoever. It was clear as a bell to the referees who reviewed the play, but they had no recourse. That is the definition of a flop that I would sanction: a player falls to the court without getting touched.
    That call was a travesty, and I favor a rule change to keep anything like it from happening again. But my remedy would be narrower and simpler: Officials should be empowered in such a situation to reverse their call.

    I do not, however, favor sanctioning players for flopping, and have never seen rationale for doing so that I find compelling. Shall we sanction, via technical fouls and suspensions, other acts of subterfuge and deception as well? How about an offensive player who yells "and one" upon shooting in hopes of drawing a foul call and/or continuation? If he wasn't fouled, or was clearly fouled before the act of shooting, should that result in a technical? How about an offensive player who attempts to trick an official into calling a shooting foul by flinging the ball at the basket when fouled in the backcourt? All of those are attempts to win undeserved favorable calls. How are they qualitatively different from flopping? What is it about flopping that necessitates technical fouls and suspensions?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    It was actually Tanner Smith in the Clemson game on that play, but that's exactly the type play I had in mind when suggesting a technical foul. That was not a block/charge play either. Smith flopped when it appeared Miles hit him in the face with an elbow, when actually as you point out, Miles never touched him.
    You are right. It was Tanner Smith.

    sagegrouse

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    The refs already have a rule to cite: unsportsmanlike conduct (rule 2, sec 8). A nice catch-all for anything that goes over the line.

    -jk

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    I can't believe this hadn't been said until the 22nd post...

    I listen to Patrick all the time. He loves Coach K. Whenever coach is on, the two of them go at it (in a brotherly or friendly type of way)...

    There is not a single doubt in my mind that Patrick was just trying to have some fun.
    But you're missing the point. Or maybe I didn't state it clearly enough.

    Even if Patrick was tongue in cheek, having fun, or whatever, the fact that the "joke" is made, the meme is repeated, or however you want to term it, is what causes damage. Even if done in fun. If something is said, even in jest, often enough, people start to believe there is a kernel of truth, at least, in it. And this particular accusation, whether made seriously or in jest, has been repeated over and over and over again, over a period of many years, and the result has been its acceptance and repetition by many members of the media and lots and lots of anti-Duke fans. While it can be debated, I suppose, as to how much the adoption of this into the conventional wisdom actually hurts Duke, I know one thing: it don't help.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    But you're missing the point. Or maybe I didn't state it clearly enough.

    Even if Patrick was tongue in cheek, having fun, or whatever, the fact that the "joke" is made, the meme is repeated, or however you want to term it, is what causes damage. Even if done in fun. If something is said, even in jest, often enough, people start to believe there is a kernel of truth, at least, in it. And this particular accusation, whether made seriously or in jest, has been repeated over and over and over again, over a period of many years, and the result has been its acceptance and repetition by many members of the media and lots and lots of anti-Duke fans. While it can be debated, I suppose, as to how much the adoption of this into the conventional wisdom actually hurts Duke, I know one thing: it don't help.
    Two words...

    Lighten Up

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by DeBlueDevil View Post
    Two words...

    Lighten Up
    Suggestion:

    You be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, and I'll be concerned about what I want to be concerned about, and neither of us will judge the other for it.

    I feel the issue being discussed is something that hurts Duke. I care about that. You don't have to agree, or you don't have to care about it, and that's fine. But I'm not the only one who believes the insertion of this meme into the conventional wisdom out there is something that is a big picture negative for the Duke program. Nobody's jumping off a bridge about it, but it's an appropriate issue for discussion and for concern.

  15. #35

    Funny thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Suggestion:

    You be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, and I'll be concerned about what I want to be concerned about, and neither of us will judge the other for it.

    I feel the issue being discussed is something that hurts Duke. I care about that. You don't have to agree, or you don't have to care about it, and that's fine. But I'm not the only one who believes the insertion of this meme into the conventional wisdom out there is something that is a big picture negative for the Duke program. Nobody's jumping off a bridge about it, but it's an appropriate issue for discussion and for concern.
    The bolded above is how I feel about the hypersensitivity some of our fan base has to any sort of perceived criticism or slight. It makes Duke look bad and it hurts our perception far more than any of the slights people get up in arms about.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Suggestion:

    You be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, and I'll be concerned about what I want to be concerned about, and neither of us will judge the other for it.

    I feel the issue being discussed is something that hurts Duke. I care about that. You don't have to agree, or you don't have to care about it, and that's fine. But I'm not the only one who believes the insertion of this meme into the conventional wisdom out there is something that is a big picture negative for the Duke program. Nobody's jumping off a bridge about it, but it's an appropriate issue for discussion and for concern.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago 1995 View Post
    The bolded above is how I feel about the hypersensitivity some of our fan base has to any sort of perceived criticism or slight. It makes Duke look bad and it hurts our perception far more than any of the slights people get up in arms about.
    As Bobby Kennedy used to say, "If you have a problem, hang a lantern on it." If there is the perception that Duke practices flopping, as opposed to emphasizing taking hard charges, then we should run toward the spotlight and make fun of it. Refer to Chris as the "head coach of phantom charges."

    Most of the comments I read about Duke from coaches and players I interpret as "working the refs." I can live with the Dan Patrick comments.

    sagegrouse

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Suggestion:

    You be concerned about what you want to be concerned about, and I'll be concerned about what I want to be concerned about, and neither of us will judge the other for it.

    I feel the issue being discussed is something that hurts Duke. I care about that. You don't have to agree, or you don't have to care about it, and that's fine. But I'm not the only one who believes the insertion of this meme into the conventional wisdom out there is something that is a big picture negative for the Duke program. Nobody's jumping off a bridge about it, but it's an appropriate issue for discussion and for concern.
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    As Bobby Kennedy used to say, "If you have a problem, hang a lantern on it." If there is the perception that Duke practices flopping, as opposed to emphasizing taking hard charges, then we should run toward the spotlight and make fun of it. Refer to Chris as the "head coach of phantom charges."

    Most of the comments I read about Duke from coaches and players I interpret as "working the refs." I can live with the Dan Patrick comments.

    sagegrouse
    I'm with Sage on this one. The more serious or offended we are in responding to the meme, the more people will interpret that as confirmation of it. Besides, there really just isn't all that much we can do about it. People are going to go on saying what they want to say, no matter how untrue or irksome it is -- or maybe specifically because of how untrue and irksome it is. And I disagree that it really hurts Duke, except for the uncalculable effect it possibly, potentially, may or may not have on recruiting. Besides, even if this does affect recruiting, the recruits who would buy into that and get scared off by the perception are typically the ones we won't want at Duke anyway.

    I see UK as having a similar problem. None of their more respectable fans (if there are any) can shake the perception of the program as rife with cheating and NCAA violations. Likewise for them -- to paraphrase myself from above -- even if that problem does affect recruiting, the recruits that would be scared away by the cheating are the ones they don't want at UK anyway.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    I was thinking that when Jefferson chose Duke the other day and cited the school's academics, that's a perception that works in our favor that other schools must gnash their teeth over. Before anyone jumps on me, I recognize that it's a perception that is also a reality (Duke is a great school), and our players have to perform in the classroom, but they also get tons of help and resources to guide them. Duke is great, but it's not like we have the market cornered on great professors, etc.

  19. #39
    Geez, look at the legs on this story - must be the dog days of summer. How long until tip off again?

    I'd say there's an even split between Duke fans who are appalled that Dan Patrick would piggy-back on decades of stereotypes about Duke flopping, and those Duke fans who feel that this hypersensitivity just piggybacks on the stereotype that Duke fans are elitist and feel their program is above reproach.

    Whatever happened to turning the other cheek? I guarantee you that each of us on this thread has spend more time worrying over any aspect of this than K has.

    Next play please?

Similar Threads

  1. Jay Wilkinson on Morning Joe Right Now!!
    By sagegrouse in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-24-2012, 10:57 AM
  2. Did anybody see Wojo on First Take this morning?
    By bjornolf in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-04-2009, 02:21 PM
  3. The morning after
    By feldspar in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-27-2009, 02:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •