General Election Thread (no partisan sniping allowed!)

[Bluedog]

I thought it was pretty even personally. I think if you agree with Biden's positions, you thought he won, and vice versa. A lot of foreign policy conversation and some intricate details that I think would not be understood by many voters, particularly low information voters who make up a large percentage of the undecideds. I think the moderator did a good job although her focus on foreign policy is probably not the central issue on most people's minds.

[Reisen]

I would agree. The media will give this win to Biden. I thought his reactions to Ryan with the laughing might have put a few people off but on the whole served to discredit a lot of what he said. He also interrupted him more which sadly seems to have a positive affect.

No way. I bet the story coming out of this debate is 90% focused on Biden's behavior (laughing, interrupting). I don't think it will be universal condemnation, but I think that's going to be the media's angle. Whether that matters to you is really up to the voter.

[sagegrouse]

Well, understand that I thought the first debate was a draw and most disagreed.

I was watching on a channel hat had a split screen (maybe not all channels did, do not know). Biden looked awful whenever Ryan spoke. Stumbled on numbers. You obviously saw it different and curios as to your (respected) view.

Thanks for giving respect to my views ahead of time -- I don't get that from my daughters.

I thought Biden was energetic and won the debate on taxes, both taxes on the high-income folks we all aspire to be and the vagueness of the savings to offset the cut in tax rates. Biden did well on social security and Medicare. He scored good points on Iran, Afghanistan and Syria (although Syria is really confusing). I thought Ryan scored on criticizing the economy and the summary comments.

sagegrouse

[alteran]

This is a joke, right??? -- sage

My thoughts exactly. But it really is hard to see these things objectively.

[OldPhiKap]

Thanks for giving respect to my views ahead of time -- I don't get that from my daughters.

I thought Biden was energetic and won the debate on taxes, both taxes on the high-income folks we all aspire to be and the vagueness of the savings to offset the cut in tax rates. Biden did well on social security and Medicare. He scored good points on Iran, Afghanistan and Syria (although Syria is really confusing). I thought Ryan scored on criticizing the economy and the summary comments.

sagegrouse

As the parent of two kids, I feel your pain.

Listening to the press, my view of Obama's performance was above trend and that my view of Biden's was below. For the little that is worth.

On substance, both debates were fairly clear. Can't see how you cannot know who you support at this point.

And to restate what I hope is clear, my views of the two debates has nothing to do with substance or for whom I will vote (on Monday when advance voting starts in Georgia). I would like to think that if there was a poll of my favorite, it would end up 60-40 either way. Perhaps I delude myself though.

[rthomas]

The question voters have to ask is who do they feel more comfortable with as the person one heart beat away.

[El_Diablo]

CBS snap poll of undecideds: Who won the debate?

Biden 50%
Ryan 31%
Tie 19%

[Bluedog]

CNN poll says 48% Ryan, 44% Biden. Who knows how scientific.

[Lid]

No way. I bet the story coming out of this debate is 90% focused on Biden's behavior (laughing, interrupting).

I doubt this. Romney was very similar (less laughing, but lots of interrupting) and everyone seemed to think he did wonderfully. It's not my style at all, but apparently I'm in the minority.

[Cameron]

Whether Republican or Democrat or somewhere in between, as passionate fans of Duke, I think many of us can agree that if the leader of our team ever represented us with the particular brand of tact that the vice president displayed tonight, we would all be mortified. The lack of respect with regard to stage was utterly embarrassing. That's my personal take at least.

As has been pointed out here, not everyone pays the same level of attention to style, or even any at all. Substance usually rules the day in these things. So I am not surprised there is such a polarizing split of American opinion on the outcome of the debate tonight.

[Reisen]

I doubt this. Romney was very similar (less laughing, but lots of interrupting) and everyone seemed to think he did wonderfully. It's not my style at all, but apparently I'm in the minority.

I think if it had been Just interrupting, we'd probably be seeing it ignored. To be fair, all four candidates so far have done their share of interrupting. But the laughing stood out like a sore thumb. Romney may have cracked smiles, but there's really no comparison. And, most importantly, only one of the two sides was doing it.

We'll see what the media analysis looks like.

[Mike Corey]

I thought Biden was as dominating and as overly aggressive as Romney was a week ago.

The particular weak moments for Ryan were when he criticized the stimulus, only to have Biden mention the letters Ryan had sent requesting stimulus money for Wisconsin; Biden's responses to Ryan's statements on taxes; and Biden's contrasted answer on abortion to Ryan's (re: Supreme Court and Roe v. Wade).

I thought Ryan handled himself as well as possible, but thought he got taken to task just about every time he opened his mouth--just as Obama did last week. The difference was that Ryan spoke clearly and confidently; Obama did not, and Obama's the president.

[sporthenry]

I think if it had been Just interrupting, we'd probably be seeing it ignored. To be fair, all four candidates so far have done their share of interrupting. But the laughing stood out like a sore thumb. Romney may have cracked smiles, but there's really no comparison. And, most importantly, only one of the two sides was doing it.

We'll see what the media analysis looks like.

Well I'm not sure how we can compare the extents to how much Romney interrupted Obama with how much Biden interrupted Ryan. Perhaps it was worse, but it still had the same intended effect. It has become obvious that the moderators are more there to facilitate conversation and that to the aggressor will go the spoils.

We can argue about who started the mudslinging, but it is inconsequential at this point because the gauntlet has obviously been thrown. Even if Biden went over the top, the media will spin it as firing up the base and bringing emotion back into their side. Advisers have realized this is effective just like negative ads and will continue to run with it until someone goes over the line, perhaps that was tonight.

Raddatz wasn't bad, better than Lehrer at keeping things going, but still left a bit to be desired. She should have addressed Joe at one point about his interruptions and her segues into new topics were often at the expense of someone so perhaps she should have given each some type of last word on the topics. But on the whole, both candidates have done very well to dance around the issues which actually upset segments of the country and both moderators were just trying to bring these issues to light.

[captmojo]

Charles Krauthamer said, "If you listened on radio, Biden won. If you read the transcripts, it's a draw. If you watched it on television, Ryan won."
Having been forced to listen on radio, then watching reruns on TV when I got home, I accept the above analysis.
Perception being key, Biden did his cause no favors with his demeanor. I think his smiles were coming due to his belief that he had heard something that left him an opening for rebuttal. It came off to the viewer though, as looking smug.
I judge it a draw. Therefore I do not expect the meter to change. Nobody votes for VP anyway.

Oh yeah...my popcorn and beer were fantastic!

[tommy]

As has been pointed out here, not everyone pays the same level of attention to style, or even any at all. Substance usually rules the day in these things.

Totally disagree. Substance never rules the day in these things. In fact, that was one of the remarkable things about the first presidential debate. The perception, held by the clear majority of viewers, that Romney won the debate, was based almost entirely on style, on optics. Almost nobody (other than real political junkies, who are a tiny minority of the electorate) who viewed the debate could tell you anything of substance that the candidates said. What particular policies did candidate X state that you agreed or disagreed with? Nobody could answer that, because there wasn't any. No, Romney "won" because he was more energetic, more forceful, he attacked, he was confident, he spoke crisply and in a well-organized way. None of that is substantive. All style and optics.

Tonight's VP debate actually did have more substance to it, which was great, but I think most viewers won't know how to sort a lot of it out, and (like the talking heads on the post-debate "analysis" shows) will punt by calling it a draw on substance. That'll allow them to make their judgments as to who "won" on style and optics, which is what they prefer to do anyway. Whether one was comfortable or even happy with Biden's aggressiveness and with his physical reactions to what Ryan was saying will have a lot to do with the average person's assessment of who won this debate.

[Mike Corey]

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[Udaman]

Here's the thing....as someone said people tend to view these things through their own political lens. I watched it last night, and thought that Biden smoked Ryan. I thought Ryan looked awful on Afghanistan, I thought he got smoked with the stimulus letters he wrote, I thought he showed that they have no plan on how to pay for the tax cuts, I thought his comments on abortion were a clear blow to his support from women voters. Yeah, Biden was aggressive and cut him off a bunch, but I liked seeing that.

OK...I'm a Democrat. I was all hoping that everyone saw it that way, and then went and looked and found that most Republicans liked how Ryan did, and that most people were calling it a draw, and that a few polls showed Biden winning and a few showed Ryan winning. That's how these things work.

Which (as someone else wrote) is why the first debate was such an anomaly. I watched that and thought Obama was awful. I was stunned. He got smoked, and that's why he has fallen in the polls and why I think he will now lose the election.

The next two presidential debates, I think, will be much like the debate last night. Most will call it a draw, the Republicans will argue that Romney won, the Democrats that it was Obama. Why? Because these guys basically know what's going to be asked, and they prepare and they know how to counter and they have a few zingers that everyone talks about. That's how you play this game. It's why these things are typically a tie. Obama also has the added advantage of "well, he couldn't do any worse than the first debate, so clearly this one is more in his favor."

That said, can someone, ANYONE please give the Democrats a lesson in how to do a closing argument. Both Obama and Biden had rambling, repetitive, unclear closing comments. Biden's didn't even last his full allotment. Romney, and especially Ryan, had memorized speeches that were powerful and clear and left strong impressions (they've been aided by the luck of the coin toss and getting to go last, but still). It's so easy. Even George Bush, Jr. would have memorized final comments where you hammer your opponent and say all the things you want to, because you KNOW the other person can't respond and still say all the things he/she wants to say as well. I give both Obama and Biden a solid, solid F in their closing statements thus far. Cannot believe how awful they have been (both in substance and in lost potential).

[moonpie23]

i'm really curious about an "undecided voter"....really? is there such a thing?

[AtlBluRew]

That said, can someone, ANYONE please give the Democrats a lesson in how to do a closing argument. Both Obama and Biden had rambling, repetitive, unclear closing comments. Biden's didn't even last his full allotment. Romney, and especially Ryan, had memorized speeches that were powerful and clear and left strong impressions (they've been aided by the luck of the coin toss and getting to go last, but still). It's so easy. Even George Bush, Jr. would have memorized final comments where you hammer your opponent and say all the things you want to, because you KNOW the other person can't respond and still say all the things he/she wants to say as well. I give both Obama and Biden a solid, solid F in their closing statements thus far. Cannot believe how awful they have been (both in substance and in lost potential).

I loved Joe last night. From my prism, he was passionate, he had the facts ready, and he wasn't going to put up with misleading statements floating about even for a minute. I think the Ryan did well and held his own, and I understand why my Republican friends are happy with it. For those saying that Joe shouldn't have laughed while Ryan spoke, I have to disagree. Democrats needed passion last night, and needed someone who would call the opponent to the carpet. The laughs said, "That's malarkey," and in a split screen, the viewer could discount what Ryan was saying immediately. Were Biden to smile quietly like Romney did last week, it would have merely appeared smug. And it wouldn't have been the Biden that, according to Pew, about of us like and 51% of us don't like.

The staging, IMO, made things more comfortable Ryan and, at the same time, encouraged Joe to be the Joe we saw. Sitting at a table with the moderator gave it the look and feel of a Sunday morning talk show. Ryan doesn't have the debate experience of Biden, but he's plenty experienced with Sunday morning talk shows. And the seating took away some of the formality that might have restrained Joe.

Had to come back and edit bc I almost forgot why I quoted you! I really preferred Joe's passionate close! By comparison, Ryan seemed over-rehearsed from the moment he looked into the camera and shallow.

[rthomas]

I didn't watch the debate - watched the Stillers lose instead.

However, there are some really funny tweets from last night about how Biden smiled and laughed too much and Ryan nervously drank water too much.