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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by gw67 View Post
    For health reasons, I've stayed inside and watched a lot of golf early this year and the play has been terrific. I found it interesting that viewership of Sunday play is up over 30% with Tiger not doing most of the heavy lifting. I think that this is a clear indication that we are in a transition period where Rory, Ricky, Bubba, Luke and others are beginning to lead the way. I don't see a Nicklaus or Woods among the current crop but you never know.

    gw67
    There is a lot of parity at the top of the golf world right now, that is for sure.

    And what about Kevin Na. I feel sorry for him that he has the Barkleys, and there is no place for heckling by the crowd at any place, but I wouldn't want to play with him and I wouldn't want him in the group one ahead of me on a crowed Sunday at my golf course.
    ~rthomas

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by gw67 View Post
    I agree with much of the above. The bottom line, IMO, is that he is still a top golfer who will likely win 2-3 tournaments a year (particularly on his favorite venues) but I just don't see him returning to dominating the tour. There are several reasons for this. He is 36 years old and is, perhaps, an old 36 given his past injuries and the fact that he has played a lot of golf (and practice) since his dad starting working with him at a very young age. Another big reason, IMO, is that the PGA tour is deeper than ever and most of the up and coming American players and the Euros simply don't fear him. Several, when paired with him, have outplayed him.

    For health reasons, I've stayed inside and watched a lot of golf early this year and the play has been terrific. I found it interesting that viewership of Sunday play is up over 30% with Tiger not doing most of the heavy lifting. I think that this is a clear indication that we are in a transition period where Rory, Ricky, Bubba, Luke and others are beginning to lead the way. I don't see a Nicklaus or Woods among the current crop but you never know.

    gw67
    Interesting stuff, as always gw67. Couple of things: Tiger has hit a lot of awful shots, missed a lo of very makeable putts, doesn't seem to be able to control his ball flight, and his ability to make the improbable putt that wins a tournament, cannot be explained by any of the things that you mentioned.

    It might be that the increased viewership is due to the rush of new golfers that the Tiger-age gave rise to. See, guys went out and joined expensive clubs, bought the best equipment imaginable each year, and took scads of "how to" instructions from club pros and pros at fancy resorts, etc, only to find that hitting the little ball has alluded them. These guys, who compress the ball, or nearly so, maybe once or twice a round, don't play very much anymore, but still identify with the sport. They put aside that they actually don't have a clue as to what makes the darn thing go, have no concept of how far and in what direction any ball they hit will wind up, the aches and pains that come from swinging a long stick with a weight on the end completely out of whack, and yet they sit in front of a TV and watch, play make believe, that they know what is going on.

    I was one of those guys, sans the fancy golf club, the newest technology, but not the lessons, so I think I know.

    But, I have to say, that I loved watching the game before I ever held a stick--I liked watching it when Arnie could play, when Nicholas and then Watson succeeded o the throne, when Miller was the shinning light, when Trevino MADE you root for him, who could help themselves, when Duval shot a 62 or was it a 61 to win a significant tournament, when the Shark was the greatest golfer I had ever seen but was snake, not shark bit, when it came to the majors, when Freddie had the sweetest swing there ever was that went along with his movie star looks, and when Raymond and Jack were winning majors well past their 40s. Oh, did I mention Player, Sevi, the two guys who came off the same U of Texas team, one who was the best putter the game has known and the other the best wedge player, Azinger, Stewart, I think I'll stop.

    These new guys with their equipment and computerized ball flights and scientifically specified dimple-arrangement and composition golf balls, maybe they could compete against or even beat some of these guys I mentioned, or maybe all of them. But, I doubt it. And Tiger faced many of these guys and others who had swag to their games, who grew up literally taking money from club champions as kids, guys who had nerves of steel and had proven their steel against the best, and he brought them all to their knees. Thirty six years old, champions are still playing quarterback in the NFL, are regarded as among the very best in basketball, and, in golf, would be in their prime.

    Tiger made the audience and would be eating all these guys up, burying them, if that swing of his was not fatally flawed. Fatally flawed not in the way that the heads would talk of a fatally flawed swing. Rather, like Oedipus at Colonus, Tiger's genuis held within it the seeds of not only his greatest achievements but also his own destruction.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Interesting stuff, as always gw67. Couple of things: Tiger has hit a lot of awful shots, missed a lo of very makeable putts, doesn't seem to be able to control his ball flight, and his ability to make the improbable putt that wins a tournament, cannot be explained by any of the things that you mentioned.

    It might be that the increased viewership is due to the rush of new golfers that the Tiger-age gave rise to. See, guys went out and joined expensive clubs, bought the best equipment imaginable each year, and took scads of "how to" instructions from club pros and pros at fancy resorts, etc, only to find that hitting the little ball has alluded them. These guys, who compress the ball, or nearly so, maybe once or twice a round, don't play very much anymore, but still identify with the sport. They put aside that they actually don't have a clue as to what makes the darn thing go, have no concept of how far and in what direction any ball they hit will wind up, the aches and pains that come from swinging a long stick with a weight on the end completely out of whack, and yet they sit in front of a TV and watch, play make believe, that they know what is going on.

    I was one of those guys, sans the fancy golf club, the newest technology, but not the lessons, so I think I know.

    But, I have to say, that I loved watching the game before I ever held a stick--I liked watching it when Arnie could play, when Nicholas and then Watson succeeded o the throne, when Miller was the shinning light, when Trevino MADE you root for him, who could help themselves, when Duval shot a 62 or was it a 61 to win a significant tournament, when the Shark was the greatest golfer I had ever seen but was snake, not shark bit, when it came to the majors, when Freddie had the sweetest swing there ever was that went along with his movie star looks, and when Raymond and Jack were winning majors well past their 40s. Oh, did I mention Player, Sevi, the two guys who came off the same U of Texas team, one who was the best putter the game has known and the other the best wedge player, Azinger, Stewart, I think I'll stop.

    These new guys with their equipment and computerized ball flights and scientifically specified dimple-arrangement and composition golf balls, maybe they could compete against or even beat some of these guys I mentioned, or maybe all of them. But, I doubt it. And Tiger faced many of these guys and others who had swag to their games, who grew up literally taking money from club champions as kids, guys who had nerves of steel and had proven their steel against the best, and he brought them all to their knees. Thirty six years old, champions are still playing quarterback in the NFL, are regarded as among the very best in basketball, and, in golf, would be in their prime.

    Tiger made the audience and would be eating all these guys up, burying them, if that swing of his was not fatally flawed. Fatally flawed not in the way that the heads would talk of a fatally flawed swing. Rather, like Oedipus at Colonus, Tiger's genuis held within it the seeds of not only his greatest achievements but also his own destruction.
    The new guys may have great inovative equipment, but they are also not smoking in between hitting every shot like the old generation you named and are more fit, lift weights and are athletes. They could play with anybody.
    ~rthomas

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by rthomas View Post
    The new guys may have great inovative equipment, but they are also not smoking in between hitting every shot like the old generation you named and are more fit, lift weights and are athletes. They could play with anybody.
    I'd like to see that. The Shark, Freddy, Nicholas , Watson (a hair of whinning the British open two years ago, a perfect 8 iron that rolled through the green, Floyd, the best around the greens and inventive shoot maker this side of Tiger (besides hitting it a mile), Trevino, he'd talk you to death while shooting below 65 in the last round, Freddie, he was hitting it 300 with perimmons, Arnie, Player, Miller, the guy who followed Jack to Ohio State, who'm I leaving out, oh, Sevi (the most creative shot maker ever), Orlothobo, Duval, Corey, the Big Easy, Payne, Azzinger, the British guy who everyone loved to hate (upright swing, real tall, Faldo, Langer to name a few. These guys were hitting 5 or 4 irons into the greens at the short Masters, not wedges and nine irons, and were putting up numbers.

    Jack was the best, not because of his putting or his driving, both of which were real impressive, but because he could sight line a two hundred yard 4 or 3 iron better than anyone in the business, align himself perfectly, and put them close. There's no one in the business who you stuck a blade in his hands and a non custom made golf ball, and asked him to do that and could; no one.

    Bubba can hit the heck out of it but with a persimmon and a regular wound golf ball he'd have ended up in NJ with that shot off the Tee on the Championship hole.

    Kory is really going to compare, be in the same universe as the Shark, who is matching Sevi, is there anyone other than Tiger who is done who could close to Jack, who do you put up against Watson, Faldo, Sevi, Duval, Freddie, Player, we haven't mentioned Kite, Crehshaw, Cook, Irwin, Singh, Stadler, Arnie, Woozman, Olezzabel, Pavin Els.ason, Simpson, Zeller.

    Most of these guys didn't smoke and what if they did. Didn't hurt the Mick, the Babe, tons of basketball players and football players in the Halls. It ain't like this is a fitness contest. And, by the way, fitness and power is a function of forgiveness. You have these hit wound balls with persimmons and we will see some pretty wild, awful play. Turn it around, Jack wins the Masters at 46, Floyd ditto, Watson the British short by a stroke as 55 or so, Chrenshaw the Masters.

    You take those rackets away from Nadal and these other dudes, and let's see how they'd do against McEnroe, Connors, Newcomb, Ashe, Smith. Laver, the Great Swede, Villas, ViJay. Let's see how they play without 100 plu mph serves, smashijng blazing zinners from 5 years behind the baseline, hitting winners when barely getting to the ball, please.

    If they called palming the ball in the pros, Paul and just about every other point guard would be out of business. If they called walking, the number of three balls tried would be reduced by a third. If they called pulling down on collapsible rims to jam balls in that would embarass a so-callled leaper to death, if they called walking when guys either walk into shots or step back with three little ones, and do away with that stupid rule that takes away the best play in sport, the play that made Bill Russell who he is, well, you get my point. Later.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I'd like to see that. The Shark, Freddy, Nicholas , Watson (a hair of whinning the British open two years ago, a perfect 8 iron that rolled through the green, Floyd, the best around the greens and inventive shoot maker this side of Tiger (besides hitting it a mile), Trevino, he'd talk you to death while shooting below 65 in the last round, Freddie, he was hitting it 300 with perimmons, Arnie, Player, Miller, the guy who followed Jack to Ohio State, who'm I leaving out, oh, Sevi (the most creative shot maker ever), Orlothobo, Duval, Corey, the Big Easy, Payne, Azzinger, the British guy who everyone loved to hate (upright swing, real tall, Faldo, Langer to name a few. These guys were hitting 5 or 4 irons into the greens at the short Masters, not wedges and nine irons, and were putting up numbers.

    Jack was the best, not because of his putting or his driving, both of which were real impressive, but because he could sight line a two hundred yard 4 or 3 iron better than anyone in the business, align himself perfectly, and put them close. There's no one in the business who you stuck a blade in his hands and a non custom made golf ball, and asked him to do that and could; no one.

    Bubba can hit the heck out of it but with a persimmon and a regular wound golf ball he'd have ended up in NJ with that shot off the Tee on the Championship hole.

    Kory is really going to compare, be in the same universe as the Shark, who is matching Sevi, is there anyone other than Tiger who is done who could close to Jack, who do you put up against Watson, Faldo, Sevi, Duval, Freddie, Player, we haven't mentioned Kite, Crehshaw, Cook, Irwin, Singh, Stadler, Arnie, Woozman, Olezzabel, Pavin Els.ason, Simpson, Zeller.

    Most of these guys didn't smoke and what if they did. Didn't hurt the Mick, the Babe, tons of basketball players and football players in the Halls. It ain't like this is a fitness contest. And, by the way, fitness and power is a function of forgiveness. You have these hit wound balls with persimmons and we will see some pretty wild, awful play. Turn it around, Jack wins the Masters at 46, Floyd ditto, Watson the British short by a stroke as 55 or so, Chrenshaw the Masters.

    You take those rackets away from Nadal and these other dudes, and let's see how they'd do against McEnroe, Connors, Newcomb, Ashe, Smith. Laver, the Great Swede, Villas, ViJay. Let's see how they play without 100 plu mph serves, smashijng blazing zinners from 5 years behind the baseline, hitting winners when barely getting to the ball, please.

    If they called palming the ball in the pros, Paul and just about every other point guard would be out of business. If they called walking, the number of three balls tried would be reduced by a third. If they called pulling down on collapsible rims to jam balls in that would embarass a so-callled leaper to death, if they called walking when guys either walk into shots or step back with three little ones, and do away with that stupid rule that takes away the best play in sport, the play that made Bill Russell who he is, well, you get my point. Later.
    It must be the shoes.
    ~rthomas

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ashburn, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I

    You take those rackets away from Nadal and these other dudes, and let's see how they'd do against McEnroe, Connors, Newcomb, Ashe, Smith. Laver, the Great Swede, Villas, ViJay. Let's see how they play without 100 plu mph serves, smashijng blazing zinners from 5 years behind the baseline, hitting winners when barely getting to the ball, please.
    I appreciate your respect for the past, but I'm fairly sure Federer (and probably Djokovic and Nadal... but especially Fed) would hold their own against the greats of prior generations. Rackets are just one factor - like golf, tennis players are in much better shape now, extraordinary shape in fact. And like golf, to win they have to beat other players with all the same conditioning and equipment advantages. And yet they do - time and time again.

    How many titles does Ivo Karlovic have (world record fastest serve)? Look at what happened to Roddick when he finally started running into Federer. Heck, you can count the grand slam titles of the top 25 fastest servers in history on one hand probably. (Not so much on the women's side of course - the Williams sisters have dominated with their power and hold the top 2 spots).
    Last edited by snowdenscold; 05-18-2012 at 08:50 AM.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
    I appreciate your respect for the past, but I'm fairly sure Federer (and probably Djokovic and Nadal... but especially Fed) would hold their own against the greats of prior generations. Rackets are just one factor - like golf, tennis players are in much better shape now, extraordinary shape in fact. And like golf, to win they have to beat other players with all the same conditioning and equipment advantages. And yet they do - time and time again.

    How many titles does Ivo Karlovic have (world record fastest serve)? Look at what happened to Roddick when he finally started running into Federer. Heck, you can count the grand slam titles of the top 25 fastest servers in history on one hand probably. (Not so much on the women's side of course - the Williams sisters have dominated with their power and hold the top 2 spots).
    Yup. Great players would be great players in whatever era they played in. Nicklaus, Palmer, et al would have gotten in better shape and used the better clubs and been the Woods, Mickelson, et al of the day. To suggest that those old guys would clearly beat the young guys is just folly. As is suggesting that the new guys would destroy the old guys if both came up in the same era.

    As you state, all the equipment does is change the height of the hurdles. The games will still be won by the best players. Federer would have been great in any era. So would Nadal, Djokovic, Sampras, Agassi, Borg, Laver and so many others.

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