NBA Playoffs Thread

[FellowTraveler]

think Riley did a good job adding everything the Heat possibly needed to win championships, except the coach.

ESPN's John Hollinger wrote a piece (Insider-only, unfortunately) in mid-May arguing the opposite: That other than the James/Bosh signing, Miami has overpaid for role players of limited skill -- the kinds of players other teams get for minimum contracts -- while passing on better players who signed for similar money elsewhere. I tend to agree. They're paying a combined $7.5 million this year for Haslem & Anthony, for example.

Could a different coach get more out of the roster? I don't know; maybe. But, outside of James/Wade/Bosh, it isn't a good roster.

[CDu]

ESPN's John Hollinger wrote a piece (Insider-only, unfortunately) in mid-May arguing the opposite: That other than the James/Bosh signing, Miami has overpaid for role players of limited skill -- the kinds of players other teams get for minimum contracts -- while passing on better players who signed for similar money elsewhere. I tend to agree. They're paying a combined $7.5 million this year for Haslem & Anthony, for example.

Could a different coach get more out of the roster? I don't know; maybe. But, outside of James/Wade/Bosh, it isn't a good roster.

There just aren't that many coaches who won't get overruled by Wade or James. Spoelstra is in an especially bad situation because he has absolutely no cache as a coach. But there are maybe a couple of coaches (Coach K, Phil Jackson, Rivers, Popovich, Riley) that have the clout to tell Wade and James what to do. And none of those guys outside of Riley is even remotely a possibility as coach in Miami.

I'm becoming less and less impressed with Wade with each game. He's constantly whining, not getting back on defense, and just looks aloof and disinterested. Even after Rondo openly called him out for whining to the refs, he STILL got beaten back on defense repeatedly. The guy still has superhuman ability at times (the block on the dunk attempt, the unbelievable driving triple clutch layup late). He just needs to channel that more consistently and not spend so much time being petulant.

It was a great effort by the Celtics to fight back into that game. To win despite awful shooting games by Pierce, Allen, and Rondo is incredible. The shot by Pierce was a dumb shot: heavily contested, lazy, at a time when the team needed a bucket, and coming from a guy having a terrible night. But it went in, and that basically decided the game. Clutch free throw shooting helped.

I thought the block call on Pierce on Wade's drive was atrocious. Pierce had position and Wade ran right into him. Should have been a charge or a no call (Pierce didn't initiate or gain advantage from the contact). It was a classic Wade play though: drive wildly into the defense, turn your back to the basket, and hope that the officials bail you out with the call. Thankfully (for the Celtics) that call didn't decide the game, as KG came down and hit two big FT and then the Heat missed on the other end.

On the last play, I actually though Spoelstra drew up a nice play. Several screens led to what could have been an inbounds alleyoop to James. But Garnett recognized the screen and picked up the cutting James, preventing the opportunity. Instead, they rushed an inbounds to Wade going away from the basket, and Wade ended up taking a 3.

[CDu]

Yeah, I mean, maybe. I mean, they can walk all over him, so maybe that's preferable. But actions speak louder than words to me. They don't respond to Spoelstra, and have shown pretty convincing evidence they don't respect him. (Bumping him, screaming at him on national tv.) If I'm the Heat, I'm not looking to trade any of those guys until I see whether a more experienced, accomplished coach can win with two of the best players in the world, and Chris Bosh. This is a championship caliber team, on paper.

I completely agree. I just don't think there's anyone to fit that bill.

I can't see Riley on the bench either, at this point. I think he's just too old. It's a shame. That would be exactly the kick in the butt the Heat need.

Riley is only 6 months older than Jackson (who you suggested in a previous post). If Riley is too old, why would Jackson make more sense?

[Billy Dat]

Jason Whitlock had an interesting, provocative take on Lebron, Wade and Spoelstra
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/d...oaching-053112

Am I crazy to think that the Heat's defensive problems began when Spoelstra went for an more offensively potent line-up in the 4th and Shane was on the pine? Granted, they needed a shot in the arm offensively at that point, but they may have lost something in the trade off. Then again, we are talking about a game that went down to the wire. I think that is a problem with a lot of the analysis going on. We are talking about games that have been coming down to the wire, can we really make big pronouncements about the coaching?

While I recognize Lebron's brilliance, because the series is currently 3-2, I think Rondo holds the conch as the outstanding player in the series thus far. Most of KG's offensive output can be traced to Rondo's assists and their amazing work on that high pick and roll. Granted, it's effective when KG is nailing those 18-20 footers that have become his signature, but it also works because the Heat are so worried about what Rondo is going to do coming off that screen. I know JVG called it out during the game, but it was an incredible play when Wade blocked that dunk at the rim and Rondo, with a Heat player colliding with him, one handed redirected that block to Pietrus at the 3 point line for an enormous basket. He is like some kind of alien.

The Celtics are getting stronger and stronger, Pierce and Allen are looking better, KG and Rondo are playing at a really high level, and they are getting good supporting play from the others. While the Heat beat them last year, it was not easy and, in the Celtics, you've got champions who can now smell the finals and are upping their level of play. This Celtics core - The Big 3 plus Rondo - have had horrendous injuries in their run. Had they stayed healthy, they may have won a few more titles so this run is no fluke.

As for the Heat, Wade's inability to play an intense full game is a real handicap, as is an offense where only LBJ and Wade ever look at the basket. I feel like if the rest of their guys would pass fake and drive, the floor would open up. Instead their offense looks like FC Barcelona's famous tikki takka futbol offense, LBJ and Wade pass and then get an immediate pass back from whomever received it, without them even looking at the basket.

It's a great series, though. The Boston arena will be going berserk tomorrow night.

[Billy Dat]

I completely agree. I just don't think there's anyone to fit that bill.
Riley is only 6 months older than Jackson (who you suggested in a previous post). If Riley is too old, why would Jackson make more sense?

I also don't think there is any way in hell Phil Jackson would go to work for Pat Riley...too many egos.

[Starter]

I completely agree. I just don't think there's anyone to fit that bill.



Riley is only 6 months older than Jackson (who you suggested in a previous post). If Riley is too old, why would Jackson make more sense?

Because Riley projects ancient. He looks like a sphinx (sp?) sitting over there. Jackson, even with his body breaking down, still seems like he can actively coach. Also, he was coaching last year at this time; It will have been 5 years for Riley.

Mind you, I have no idea if Jackson would be up for it, but I'd think Riley has to make the call. This is the exact situation that might lure Jackson back, to coach LeBron and Wade. I feel like if Nas can share a stage with Jay-Z, anything is possible.

I agree with the above post that the Heat's role players leave something to be desired. I still think this group has, at times, played championship caliber basketball, and that it was an incredible achievement to put together the nucleus of stars they did. You can argue that the injury to Bosh was a terrible break, and also that a deeper team would have been more equipped to deal with it. I don't know, though- where would the Celtics be without, say, Garnett? This isn't to give LeBron an excuse, mind you. I'd still contend Jordan would not have let something like this get in his way. But he had an internal drive nobody else had, not to mention the best coach on his side.

[Billy Dat]

Joe Posnanski says Lebron doesn't want to "go to the dark place" required to win these huge playoff games
http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/201...bron-talk.html

By the way, I am sure many of you saw it, but how about the "good job, good effort" kiddie Heat fan that is becoming the latest meme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XK52HUFBBw

[CDu]

Jason Whitlock had an interesting, provocative take on Lebron, Wade and Spoelstra
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/d...oaching-053112

It is an interesting take. I don't think it's appropriate for Whitlock to play armchair psychologist. And the two definitely bought into what Coach K was selling in the Olympics, and Wade bought into what Riley was selling during his title run. Wade also seeks mentorship from Crean, who was his coach at Marquette. So I don't think it's impossible for them to accept coaching. But they clearly do not seem to respect Spoelstra as a coach, and Wade didn't respect Van Gundy before Riley (though he didn't have the clout in Miami that he has now). So I do buy the argument that they won't accept coaching from an unproven coach.

James has only had one coach with a big enough reputation to tell him what to do: Coach K. In high school, he was the unquestioned star who could do whatever he wanted. In Cleveland, he had a rookie coach and no peers as a player. In Miami, he has yet another unseasoned coach.

Spoelstra can have all the Xs and Os knowledge he wants (I am not informed enough to know his chops in that regard), but I think his greenness as a coach and the egos of James and Wade make it such that he's destined to not command their respect.

While I recognize Lebron's brilliance, because the series is currently 3-2, I think Rondo holds the conch as the outstanding player in the series thus far. Most of KG's offensive output can be traced to Rondo's assists and their amazing work on that high pick and roll. Granted, it's effective when KG is nailing those 18-20 footers that have become his signature, but it also works because the Heat are so worried about what Rondo is going to do coming off that screen. I know JVG called it out during the game, but it was an incredible play when Wade blocked that dunk at the rim and Rondo, with a Heat player colliding with him, one handed redirected that block to Pietrus at the 3 point line for an enormous basket. He is like some kind of alien.

I couldn't agree more about Rondo. He's just on another planet. The amazing thing is that he is doing all of this despite still being a liability as a shooter (the 44-point night notwithstanding). He just has an unbelievable feel for the game in all aspects to the point that it doesn't seem to matter that he can't shoot. Teams even dare him to shoot and try to take away the drive and he still finds angles to get it done. You have to love a player that can create so much for others and plays such good defense as well.

As for the Heat, Wade's inability to play an intense full game is a real handicap, as is an offense where only LBJ and Wade ever look at the basket. I feel like if the rest of their guys would pass fake and drive, the floor would open up. Instead their offense looks like FC Barcelona's famous tikki takka futbol offense, LBJ and Wade pass and then get an immediate pass back from whomever received it, without them even looking at the basket.

Totally agree on Wade. I don't know what has happened to him (perhaps he's chafing at no longer being the lovable hero and not even being the team's best player?), but it just seems like he goes through the motions except for select moments in which he can put his stamp on a play. It's weird.

As for the team, aside from Chalmers, nobody else wants the ball at all. Bosh will change that once healthy. But a guy like Miller (who is still a pretty talented offensive player) have become completely marginalized. And their frontcourt without Bosh has been abysmal, to the point that they are better off playing two SF and no C at all.

[CDu]

Because Riley projects ancient. He looks like a sphinx (sp?) sitting over there. Jackson, even with his body breaking down, still seems like he can actively coach. Also, he was coaching last year at this time; It will have been 5 years for Riley.

Mind you, I have no idea if Jackson would be up for it, but I'd think Riley has to make the call. This is the exact situation that might lure Jackson back, to coach LeBron and Wade. I feel like if Nas can share a stage with Jay-Z, anything is possible.

I completely disagree about Riley v Jackson. Riley appears MUCH less over the hill than Jackson. Jackson looks like he's in need of a walker. Riley looks just as polished, bronzed, and stoic as always (just grayer up top than he was in the 80s). The fact that Jackson coached more recently isn't really much evidence to me. He was in autopilot in LA the last several years. He had a veteran team that knew his system and his philosophy. In Miami, he'd have to instill that philosophy and system, which means work.

I echo the comments that Jackson would never want to work for Riley. The two have jabbed at one another too often. It may be petty, but egos are often petty.

[FellowTraveler]

Incidentally, if the Heat lose this series, a lot of people who expected them to trounce Boston will see it as evidence of some theory or other -- Spoelstra can't coach; James isn't a winner, whatever. But the expectation that they'd roll over Boston never seemed right to me. Just a reminder of how our (sometimes flawed) expectations shape the conclusions we draw after the fact.

(Works both ways, of course: Had the Heat swept the Celtics in four lopsided games, I might overrate Miami in some way because they'd exceded my expectations.)

[FerryFor50]

Honestly, I think it's pretty inexplicable that the Heat haven't won this series in 5 games.

I look at the Thunder as a good example of what a coach who can get the most out of his guys can do. The fact that he's been able to corral a hothead like Westbrook and convince him to pass the ball speaks volumes. Granted, OKC has a better overall supporting cast outside of their big 3, but still... Brooks has those guys bought in.

Spoelstra... I don't see where he's coaching. The game 4 last possession debacle (both in regulation and OT) come to mind.

How do you not get a quality shot off in regulation? What play were they running other than "get out of Lebron's way"? And the last second 3 by Wade in OT was a head scratcher, too.

Spoelstra has been thoroughly outcoached in this series by Rivers. Not even close.

[hq2]

Incidentally, if the Heat lose this series, a lot of people who expected them to trounce Boston will see it as evidence of some theory or other -- Spoelstra can't coach; James isn't a winner, whatever. But the expectation that they'd roll over Boston never seemed right to me. Just a reminder of how our (sometimes flawed) expectations shape the conclusions we draw after the fact.

(Works both ways, of course: Had the Heat swept the Celtics in four lopsided games, I might overrate Miami in some way because they'd exceded my expectations.)

The Celtics have played about as expected. Remember, these have been close games; the last two came down to two missed/made shots (Wade's and Pierce's). If those had turned out differently, the Heat would be up or maybe even have won it by now. KG and Rondo are too good and have too many mismatches in their favor not to make it competitive.

Totally agree on Wade. I don't know what has happened to him (perhaps he's chafing at no longer being the lovable hero and not even being the team's best player?), but it just seems like he goes through the motions except for select moments in which he can put his stamp on a play. It's weird.

I think that's the real mystery. Boston has played good D, but he has gone long stretches doing nothing or shooting badly. I think he's actually starting to fade. He's almost 30, and has had a serious injury. I don't think he's quite what he was 5 or 6 years ago. Against 37 year Ray Allen with bad ankles, he should be able to do better. Still not quite sure why he hasn't.

[moonpie23]

miami isn't taking it seriously enough...they got punked on a lot of after-score plays last night....boston is taking it VERY seriously...


no one on miami is doing any one thing with any consistency ...

[sagegrouse]

I think the Heat situation is really different. Here's my opinion (and several observers who are actually knowledgeable):

1. Lebron, Wade and Bosh want Spoelstra as coach.

2. They do not, repeat DO NOT, want Pat Riley on the bench (or esp. the practice court).

3. If they can't win with Spoelstra, then the Heat will trade Wade and possibly Bosh to get players that can win with Lebron. Then the coaching situation will change as well, and Heat management will be back in control of the team instead of the "Big Three."

sagegrouse

Yeah, I mean, maybe. I mean, they can walk all over him, so maybe that's preferable. But actions speak louder than words to me. They don't respond to Spoelstra, and have shown pretty convincing evidence they don't respect him. (Bumping him, screaming at him on national tv.) If I'm the Heat, I'm not looking to trade any of those guys until I see whether a more experienced, accomplished coach can win with two of the best players in the world, and Chris Bosh. This is a championship caliber team, on paper.

I can't see Riley on the bench either, at this point. I think he's just too old. It's a shame. That would be exactly the kick in the butt the Heat need.

My response, because of time constraints, was a bit abrupt to your post about Spoelstra's deficiencies and the need for the Heat to get Phil Jackson.

I agree that the Heat's coaching is deficient. I quoted others (Miami beat reporter?) who think that the solution will be not to get a new coach but to give up on the "Big Three" concept as a bad idea. And that the Big Three want no part of the fire-breathing Riley as coach.

It looks like we'll find out soon enough. If the Heat is truly better than the Celts, they could well win the next two games. But if they lose, as appears likely, something's gotta give. Either there will be a different and different type of coach or someone's gonna get traded. Probably Wade.

As to Phil Jackson, let me offer five cautions.

1. Phil and Riley would be ice and fire, and I can't see them coexisting. I happen to think that Riley is heckuva team executive, and I don't see him being kicked out.

2. Phil is a relatively old man to be an NBA coach (turning 67 before the season starts).

3. His legacy would be at risk as one of the two greatest NBA coaches of all time. Why is OU's Bud Wilkinson not often thought of as the greatest college football coach despite winning 81.5% of his games, three NCs, 14 conference titles, and an all-time winning streak of 47 games? Could it be that last unsuccessful stint with the StL Cardinals of the NFL?

4. He doesn't need the money.

5. He REALLY doesn't need the money.

sagegrouse

[Starter]

I completely disagree about Riley v Jackson. Riley appears MUCH less over the hill than Jackson. Jackson looks like he's in need of a walker. Riley looks just as polished, bronzed, and stoic as always (just grayer up top than he was in the 80s). The fact that Jackson coached more recently isn't really much evidence to me. He was in autopilot in LA the last several years. He had a veteran team that knew his system and his philosophy. In Miami, he'd have to instill that philosophy and system, which means work.

I echo the comments that Jackson would never want to work for Riley. The two have jabbed at one another too often. It may be petty, but egos are often petty.

We can definitely agree to disagree on that, I see your point. I just see a guy who won a championship two seasons ago. Maybe the year off recharged his battery a bit, his back feels a little better, he's ready to get back on that perch? Or maybe he just wants to follow the Riley path. We'll see how it goes, it seems like he wants back in, but you might be right that he doesn't want to do the day-to-day grind.

Note that I don't care either way, and I agree it's a long shot. I was just saying if I'm Riley and don't want to admit that this was a colossal failure, that's the guy I want, egos be damned. (Also, we should probably wait until they actually finish colossally failing before we get too far into this, except I think it's too late!)

[Jderf]

One way or another, the next few days are going to go a long way towards defining LBJ's career.

[CDu]

One way or another, the next few days are going to go a long way towards defining LBJ's career.

I think there's a lot of James's career left for him to define stuff. If he pulls it off and the Heat win a championship then the pressure is off. If not, he's still only 27 and has a lot of great years left. And next year the Heat will come back with a healther Bosh, perhaps a healthier Wade, surely a different supporting cast, and maybe a better coach.

[Billy Dat]

I think there's a lot of James's career left for him to define stuff. If he pulls it off and the Heat win a championship then the pressure is off. If not, he's still only 27 and has a lot of great years left. And next year the Heat will come back with a healther Bosh, perhaps a healthier Wade, surely a different supporting cast, and maybe a better coach.

I support the first half of this statement, and the only thing I'll caution about the second half of it is the old saw that you can never assume you'll get back again...everyone is healthy until they aren't, including Lebron who has never suffered a major injury in his career. It's so important to close the deal once you get within shouting distance. I do wonder, if they lose to the Celtics, if they move one of the big 3 - and it aint gonna be LBJ.

On a podcast last week, I heard Grantland's Chris Ryan talking about the Celtics and a point he made that I agree with is that it is a team with a huge amount of on court personality. KG, Pierce, Allen and Rondo have really fully formed playing personas in the league. There's nothing vanilla about them. It is a throwback to the times when the big pieces of the great teams stayed together longer but also that they played with different styles - Bird/Parish/McHale/Ainge, Magic/Kareem/Worthy/Scott/Rambis, Thomas/Laimbeer/Mahorn/Dumars/Microwave/Edwards, Erving/Toney/Cheeks. I think the league got away from that in the Jordan/Pippen era when the idea was just to surround two/three stars with complimentary pieces.

[Jderf]

I think there's a lot of James's career left for him to define stuff. If he pulls it off and the Heat win a championship then the pressure is off. If not, he's still only 27 and has a lot of great years left. And next year the Heat will come back with a healther Bosh, perhaps a healthier Wade, surely a different supporting cast, and maybe a better coach.

Certainly true, which is why I said it would "go a long way towards defining his career" and not "will define his career." But LeBron is now approaching the midway point in his NBA life. If he doesn't develop a softer shooting touch, it will slowly become much more difficult for him to do all of the different things he does as he ages. With every passing year in which he doesn't snag that first ring, it will get harder and harder for him to flip the script; and people will always talk about "how he struggled those first two years in Miami."

[Starter]

I support the first half of this statement, and the only thing I'll caution about the second half of it is the old saw that you can never assume you'll get back again...everyone is healthy until they aren't, including Lebron who has never suffered a major injury in his career. It's so important to close the deal once you get within shouting distance. I do wonder, if they lose to the Celtics, if they move one of the big 3 - and it aint gonna be LBJ.

It's also that LeBron's problem appears to have been mental. Every time he falls short in very public fashion, I'd think it weighs a little heavier on his mind. That's exactly what he doesn't need.