NBA Playoffs Thread

[Dukehky]

I suppose you could make that argument, provided you were uninterested in truth. You would have to forget that James just completed a regular season not seen statistically since Jordan. You would also have to forget James turning in one the greatest individual games ever played to tie the series and pull Miami back from the brink. You would have to forget that Miami was down 2-1 in Game 4 in part because Wade had a disastrous Game 3, while James was rock solid all series long.

Wade scored 94 points in the last three games of the Indiana series; James scored 93. If you came out of those games arguing that one guy made himself look awesome and the other didn't, I would have to conclude you have an agenda against one of those players that is keeping you from seeing their performances objectively. Those were all-time performances we just saw.

Also, I don't at all get your notion that James should be downgraded because his "success is actually tied directly to the success of his teammate." Basketball is a team game. Nobody wins games by his lonesome, and the players that engage in hero-ball are rightfully criticized for it. Carmelo Anthony, anyone? Duke fans ought especially to appreciate that distinction. Jordan won nothing before Pippen came of age, and we neither do nor should hold that against his greatness.

Maybe its just because I've been watching a lot of First Take lately and all I want to do is yell at Skip Bayless because he's an idiot, but in my mind, this is LeBron's team and he is the reason they won the Pacers series and the reason they will beat (I think they'll sweep or win in 5) against the Celts. D-Wade is a great player, but all he can do is score, and that is made incredibly easier when you have somebody like LeBron on the court, I guess that works for LeBron too, but D-Wade's finals mvp came when he had Shaq. LBJ affects the game on sooooooooooooooooooo many more levels than wade, he has also taken teams with less farther than D-Wade ever has. LeBron is the best player in the world by far in my opinion.


Doug Collins did a phenomenal job this year, but I was not a fan of the rotation he used in the fourth quarter in game 7 against the Celtics. Evan Turner was in the game over Lou Williams. They were down by 5 or more when pierce fouled out, and guess what you can't do when you're down 5? Win. You have to put in offense right there in order to get back in the game, he's also a better decision maker/passer than Turner, even though he's not really good at those things either. The Sixers are a ways away from being a contender, and I don't think they'll ever really get there. They have no star, no reliable bigs, this was their shot to make a really deep run, and they lost. Really don't see them getting out of the first round for a while.

[FellowTraveler]

So, Lebron's success is actually tied directly to the success of his teammate (who already has a title and who is clearly among the top 5-10 in the game today). Could one not make a pretty decent argument that if the Heat win this year, it is Wade who has elevated himself further into the pantheon, not Lebron? After all, in the series with the Pacers, the difference in the Heat being down 1-2 and winning 4-2 was not the platy of LeBron James, it was the play of DWade.

So, James gets the blame when his teammates aren't good enough to win in the postseason, and when they do win, James' teammates get the credit?

This is even worse than judging individual players by team success. This is judging an individual player by team success ... unless the team has success, in which case the credit goes to his teammates. It is not a reasonable, fair, or consistent way to assess players. (And, as always, I don't see anyone applying the same ever-shifting "standards" to Michael Jordan. After all, by the same logic, the difference between the Bulls not winning the NBA title and winning NBA title was not the play of Michael Jordan, it was the development of Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and BJ Armstrong and the later additions of Rodman and Kukoc.)

Over the last three games of the Pacers series, James averaged 32.7 pts, 11.3 rebounds and 8 assists, shooting 55 percent. Wade averaged 33 points, 7.3 rebounds and 3.7 assists, shooting 62 percent. Wade was excellent, but the suggestion that anyone other than LeBron James was the most important factor in the Heat winning those games and that series just shows how unfair and inaccurate criticisms of James are. It doesn't pass the laugh test. It's the invention of new standards, new barriers to greatness, that are not applied to other players.

[BobbyFan]

In 1979 they instituted stricter rules about hand checking to open up the offensive flow of the game...you were allowed to touch the player as long as you were not seen to "impede" him. There were much stricter rules implemented in the nineties. I don't buy the idea that Jordan faced tougher defenses...based on pace and offensive metrics it was easier to score in the 80s and early 90s.

There have been a few rule changes with regards to fouls made over the years, but they had been inconsistently enforced. However, a concerted effort was made by the NBA in the late 90s and mid 00s to remove such contact against perimeter players. Stu Jackson himself stated that the "rules are focused on keeping the middle open to offer more opportunities for players to cut and penetrate to the basket. When we disallowed the use of the hand and forearm to the body, the defensive 3-second rule in conjunction with the hand check interpretation, gave offensive players on the perimeter more offensive freedom". The change was also fairly obvious watching the game. A player like Tony Parker, while certainly talented, gets into the lane with such ridiculous ease that simply wasn't there in Jordan's era. The fact that Parker is consistently among league leaders in points in the paint speaks volumes.

And as I said earlier, changes in pace only affect cumulative stats. But overall efficiency hasn't significantly decreased since the 80s/90s.

[sagegrouse]

So, James gets the blame when his teammates aren't good enough to win in the postseason, and when they do win, James' teammates get the credit?

Bingo! You broke the code. But an NBA cahampionship or two will change the conversation.

sage

[theAlaskanBear]

Did anyone watch the game last night?

Despite the poor shooting it was entertaining and close throughout.

Elton carried the Sixers early and was the leading Sixer scorer at halftime (I think). The Sixers played tough D throughout which was the only reason they were in game because their weaknesses were glaring: poor outside shooters (tho Iggy had a good game from 3) and suspect decision-making. The Philly guards are all guys who want to iso and take the jumpshot (Lou Williams, Evan Turner, Jrue Holiday) and they don't shoot a particularly high percentage. Jrue Holiday has the makings to be a good PG but he doesn't have much of a clue how to run a half-court offense yet.

Yet Philly was so close in fourth quarter...good pressure D, steals, fastbreaks, team ball.

The one thing that drove me crazy was that KG was allowed his normal screening antics again. Twice he got Ray Allen open for the three by using moving/holding illegal screens...and they came at pivotal points in the game. I was screaming at my TV because they were pretty blatant -- and one was RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REF who held up his hands like what do you want me to do when the Sixer guard yelled at him.

Rondo played ball in the fourth quarter...where was that all game?

Both of these teams have huge off-seasons ahead of them with big decisions to make. Celts-Heat could be a fun series, can't wait to watch. Also tonight is the Spurs-Thunder game opener for any who want to watch.

[sagegrouse]

From here on, my mission is crystal clear. I am pulling for Shane Battier and his teammates on the Miami Heat. If the Sixers had remained in the hunt, it would have been tough to root against Elton.

Although I am rooting heavily for Shane, I have nothing against the Heat. LBJ and his posse decided that Cleveland and Akron left a lot to be desired, and they had certainly paid their dues. Lebron did not even have the respite of a year in college to make new friends and get some perspective -- or not.

Anyway, a Heat win adds a missing piece to the legacy of the Duke basketball program. Ya think? Our only rings are Jeff Mullins for the SF Warriors in 1975 and Danny Ferry for the Spurs in 1999. Of course, I add Dick Groat's World Series rings from the Pirates in 1960 and the Cardinals in 1967.

sage

[Chris Randolph]

NO WAY the Heat win in a sweep or 5. They struggled against Boston at full strength during the regular season. Bosh is still very questionable. This one goes at least 6, probably 7. I think it is a toss up. IF Bosh doesn't play, I see Boston winning in 6

[_Gary]

Bingo! You broke the code. But an NBA cahampionship or two will change the conversation.

sage

Sage, so you are saying that beyond any shadow of a doubt in your mind LeBron has that same killer instinct and "give me the ball in the last seconds and I'll carry us to victory" ability that guys like Jordan, Bird, Kobe and other "greats" have had? I'm not doubting his physical ability or even his basketball IQ. He's incredible and can dominate on every level. Heck, he does dominate. But the one thing I've yet to see from him is that winner's mentality that says I will NOT let me team lose. Up until last year I didn't think he had the opportunities one way or the other to really show us that, in spite of some of the great things he did in Cleveland. But he did have that chance last year, and to me he came up woefully short on that front in the Finals.

Just my two cents.

[hq2]

NO WAY the Heat win in a sweep or 5. They struggled against Boston at full strength during the regular season. Bosh is still very questionable. This one goes at least 6, probably 7. I think it is a toss up. IF Bosh doesn't play, I see Boston winning in 6

Nah. Without Avery Bradley (who the C's had in all regular season meetings) they have no one to
stop D-wade. And, since Pierce is getting old, they have no one to guard Lebron either. KG and
Rondo will have big series (since no one on the Heat can stop them either), but in the end, the team
with younger legs and home court will win. Heat in 6.

[Chris Randolph]

Nah. Without Avery Bradley (who the C's had in all regular season meetings) they have no one to
stop D-wade. And, since Pierce is getting old, they have no one to guard Lebron either. KG and
Rondo will have big series (since no one on the Heat can stop them either), but in the end, the team
with younger legs and home court will win. Heat in 6.

Fair prediction. I would argue that Lebron and D-wade are gonna get their points/stats regardless of who is in the Celtics lineup. I like the Celtics 'Big 3 + Allen' more than the duo of Lebron/D-wade. Confidence from winning 3 of 4 in the regular season and experience should benefit the Celtics as well. I'm not sure if I buy into the "old legs" argument. Dallas was much older than Miami last season and did ok. They get a day off between games, their legs are going to be fine. Without Bosh, I think it will be tough for the Heat. I see it going at least 6 either way.

[moonpie23]

okc getting ready to feel what gravity is...

[hq2]

I'm not sure if I buy into the "old legs" argument. Dallas was much older than Miami last season and did ok. They get a day off between games, their legs are going to be fine. Without Bosh, I think it will be tough for the Heat. I see it going at least 6 either way.

But they're not just old, they're hurt too. Pierce has a bad knee, and mostly shoots step backs or tries to draw fouls, Ray Allen has bad ankles and can't hit open jump shots (he missed like 8 or 9 in a row, and a couple badly) and their other best defender besides Bradley (who is actually becoming one of the best in the league) is Mickael Pietrus, who is still recovering from a severe concussion (think he'll take charges from LeBron? Doubt it). And, the bench is thin and low quality too. Greg Stiemssa has bad feet, no scoring moves, and can't play more 15 minutes. Ryan Hollins, a mid-season cast off pickup, plays adequate D but can only score on alley oops. Keyon Dooling at age 32 is showing little if anything in any area.

So that leaves only KG and Rondo to carry the team. Against Miami's slow point guards and undersized front line, both will put up big numbers and make it close. But with no one to stop Wade and James at the other end, and with better supporting players (Shane Battier on Paul Pierce; tough time for Paul, right?) Miami should prevail. If the C's had Avery Bradley, it would be an even series; they might even be favored; but without him Wade should be able to do whatever he wants.

Hopefully, it will go 6. That way the C's can lose the last game on their home floor, and Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen can walk off the floor one last time together. Hey guys, thanks for making the Celtics matter again. We appreciated every minute of it.

[sagegrouse]

Sage, so you are saying that beyond any shadow of a doubt in your mind LeBron has that same killer instinct and "give me the ball in the last seconds and I'll carry us to victory" ability that guys like Jordan, Bird, Kobe and other "greats" have had? I'm not doubting his physical ability or even his basketball IQ. He's incredible and can dominate on every level. Heck, he does dominate. But the one thing I've yet to see from him is that winner's mentality that says I will NOT let me team lose. Up until last year I didn't think he had the opportunities one way or the other to really show us that, in spite of some of the great things he did in Cleveland. But he did have that chance last year, and to me he came up woefully short on that front in the Finals.

Just my two cents.

I don't disagree about Lebron's failings. Anyway, my point was only that the complaints about LBJ won't stop until he wins a championship (or maybe two). It's his fault in the sense that he predicted a jillion or so, but none of that keeps him from being the best player in the league and one of the best of all time.

There are 30 teams in the NBA. And the best player is not usually on the team that wins. Yeah, ... Bill Russell. Yeah, ... Michael Jordan. But the best basketball player I ever saw was Oscar Robertson, who one season "averaged" a triple double, and he never won a championship in college or the NBA until Jabbar showed up in Milwaukee.

sagegrouse

[Chris Randolph]

But they're not just old, they're hurt too. Pierce has a bad knee, and mostly shoots step backs or tries to draw fouls, Ray Allen has bad ankles and can't hit open jump shots (he missed like 8 or 9 in a row, and a couple badly) and their other best defender besides Bradley (who is actually becoming one of the best in the league) is Mickael Pietrus, who is still recovering from a severe concussion (think he'll take charges from LeBron? Doubt it). And, the bench is thin and low quality too. Greg Stiemssa has bad feet, no scoring moves, and can't play more 15 minutes. Ryan Hollins, a mid-season cast off pickup, plays adequate D but can only score on alley oops. Keyon Dooling at age 32 is showing little if anything in any area.

So that leaves only KG and Rondo to carry the team. Against Miami's slow point guards and undersized front line, both will put up big numbers and make it close. But with no one to stop Wade and James at the other end, and with better supporting players (Shane Battier on Paul Pierce; tough time for Paul, right?) Miami should prevail. If the C's had Avery Bradley, it would be an even series;
they might even be favored; but without him Wade should be able to do whatever he wants.

Hopefully, it will go 6. That way the C's can lose the last game on their home floor, and Pierce, Garnett and Ray Allen can walk off the floor one last time together. Hey guys, thanks for making
the Celtics matter again. We appreciated every minute of it.

Seems like you are really trying to convince yourself that Boston is a big underdog. Pierce will be fine. Allen hit 2 clutch 3's last night in the 4th quarter, he will be fine, not his normal self but he is too good not to make an impact. If Pietrus concussion was so severe that he would still be recovering, I'd doubt he'd be playing (safety rules). Miami has injury issues themselves and I'm sure some of their guys are banged up.

Do you really think that Miami's best 5 (Bron, Wade, Chalmers, Battier, Haslem) is better than Boston's best 5 (Rondo, Garnett, Allen, Pierce, Bass)? Negative. That is why Bosh is so key in my opinion. The Heat's bench is weak, Mike Miller and Joel Anthony are limited. Bron and Wade carried the Heat in a 6 game series against Indiana. I think Boston is better than the Pacers

[_Gary]

I don't disagree about Lebron's failings. Anyway, my point was only that the complaints about LBJ won't stop until he wins a championship (or maybe two). It's his fault in the sense that he predicted a jillion or so, but none of that keeps him from being the best player in the league and one of the best of all time.

There are 30 teams in the NBA. And the best player is not usually on the team that wins. Yeah, ... Bill Russell. Yeah, ... Michael Jordan. But the best basketball player I ever saw was Oscar Robertson, who one season "averaged" a triple double, and he never won a championship in college or the NBA until Jabbar showed up in Milwaukee.

sagegrouse

Gotcha. I had thought you were agreeing with some who seem to already believe he's not just the best player in the League right now (which I wouldn't dispute even with the lack of a title) but that he's already the best player of all time. I just can't put him in that category without demonstrating Championship moxy and that dominating "I will win this Championship for us" mentality like Jordan, Bird and Kobe (among other greats) have demonstrated. Once, or maybe I should say "if", he does that then I'll entertain thoughts about greatest ever. Without it I'm just not ready to do that.

[moonpie23]

i think this it going to be an awesome round of basketball between the spurs and the thunder....

youth and skill vs. age and treachery....

TP just tied it up to harsh on the thunder's mello...

[moonpie23]

yung pups got schooled tonight....this is great basketball...

[_Gary]

I don't see anyone beating the Spurs at this point. I doubt this series will go beyond 5, and then I look for the same regardless of who they face coming out of the East. This is easily the Spurs year, and with home court (always a big, big deal in the NBA) on their side I just can't fathom them even being pushed a little.

[UrinalCake]

The one thing that drove me crazy was that KG was allowed his normal screening antics again. Twice he got Ray Allen open for the three by using moving/holding illegal screens...and they came at pivotal points in the game. I was screaming at my TV because they were pretty blatant -- and one was RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REF who held up his hands like what do you want me to do when the Sixer guard yelled at him.

I noticed that too and it drove me crazy, even though I didn't really care who won the game. Watching KG set a screen was like watching an offensive lineman in pass protection. He'd move to get in front of his man, then continue moving and even shoving his man backward. On another play, a screen and roll, he threw his hip out to screen off a defender that wasn't even his man. Meanwhile the announcers were praising him for his "hard" picks. I know it happens all the time but that stuff needs to be called.

[muzikfrk75]

Nah. Without Avery Bradley (who the C's had in all regular season meetings) they have no one to
stop D-wade. And, since Pierce is getting old, they have no one to guard Lebron either. KG and
Rondo will have big series (since no one on the Heat can stop them either), but in the end, the team
with younger legs and home court will win. Heat in 6.

I completely agree with this.

Not sure if this was in another thread, but the Bobcats are showing some interest in Quin Snyder for the head coach position.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/79...der-interviews