NBA Playoffs Thread

[muzikfrk75]

I'm probably the biggest Lebron fan on this board.

But seriously? Better than Jordan?

Really?

[ice-9]

Wasn't handchecking allowed during Jordan's days? Handchecking makes a big difference, because with it you can sense earlier where the person with the ball will go next. If Jordan played without handchecking, he might've been even more dominant if that's even possible.

I agree that LeBron is a more impressive physical specimen than Jordan. Tool for tool, LeBron has more potential than Jordan and is already probably a "better" basketball player.

But we're talking about greatest ever, not most potential, and that means getting it done. That means championships, because the objective of basketball isn't about scoring points or grabbing rebounds or making passes...it's about winning. And the greatest ever should be able to do that. Until LeBron wins a championships, I don't care how much potential he has or how good he looks -- he doesn't have claim to the greatest ever title.

Say what you will, that's how the world works.

Nobody cares if you're the smartest or most hardworking guy. I'm sure there are more talented guys than Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs, but those two guys got it done. Sure, sometimes it takes a bit of luck and it's about the stars aligning, but it's still about achievement not about potential.

[theAlaskanBear]

Wasn't handchecking allowed during Jordan's days? Handchecking makes a big difference, because with it you can sense earlier where the person with the ball will go next. If Jordan played without handchecking, he might've been even more dominant if that's even possible.

I agree that LeBron is a more impressive physical specimen than Jordan. Tool for tool, LeBron has more potential than Jordan and is already probably a "better" basketball player.

But we're talking about greatest ever, not most potential, and that means getting it done. That means championships, because the objective of basketball isn't about scoring points or grabbing rebounds or making passes...it's about winning. And the greatest ever should be able to do that. Until LeBron wins a championships, I don't care how much potential he has or how good he looks -- he doesn't have claim to the greatest ever title.

Say what you will, that's how the world works.

Nobody cares if you're the smartest or most hardworking guy. I'm sure there are more talented guys than Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs, but those two guys got it done. Sure, sometimes it takes a bit of luck and it's about the stars aligning, but it's still about achievement not about potential.

Again though, Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was 28...LeBron is just now reaching that point in his career. So its a bit premature to judge LeBron when it comes to Championships (and for the record, I dont think he will ever reach six -- I think 2-3 max due to Wade's declining health).

Secondly, about hand-checking, I posted on the last page about scoring per game -- Jordan entered the league at 110ppg NBA average, while James entered on a 93ppg avg, which was a 40 year NBA low. There was a difference of more than 12 fewer possessions per game from 1984 to 2004.

Add 12 possessions per game and you probably have Kobe, LeBron, Durant, maybe Melo too all averaging 30+ppg over a season consistently.

[JasonEvans]

Again though, Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was 28...LeBron is just now reaching that point in his career. So its a bit premature to judge LeBron when it comes to Championships (and for the record, I dont think he will ever reach six -- I think 2-3 max due to Wade's declining health).

So, Lebron's success is actually tied directly to the success of his teammate (who already has a title and who is clearly among the top 5-10 in the game today). Could one not make a pretty decent argument that if the Heat win this year, it is Wade who has elevated himself further into the pantheon, not Lebron? After all, in the series with the Pacers, the difference in the Heat being down 1-2 and winning 4-2 was not the platy of LeBron James, it was the play of DWade.

-Jason "I agree with Bobby Fan and Starter, at this point Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, and perhaps a few others would go ahead of Lebron in the all-time draft" Evans

[Starter]

This is a valid point, but I do think a championship would go a long way towards wiping away those blemishes, and multiple championships would erase them altogether.

I honestly think this is going to be the year he gets that first ring. According to the SI article published several weeks ago, the guy completely re-dedicated himself to the game after last year's humiliating loss against Dallas. I would argue that we are seeing the consequences of this so far in the playoffs.

I also think Lebron has matured to the point that he'll no longer be afraid to assert himself in the fourth quarter of big games. Time will tell. He'll need something from Wade and the supporting cast to get there too, so it's far from a sure thing. But my gut tells me that this is going to be the year.

If you haven't read the SI piece on Lebron, check it out here: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...mes/index.html

I just wanted to second that you should read this piece. It's very well done. But also read this piece on Duncan, if you haven't yet. LeBron has to force himself to make the game not mental -- which, obviously, makes it more mental. Duncan just does his thing, year after year. And it's like he's turned back the clock a few years this year.

[BobbyFan]

Secondly, about hand-checking, I posted on the last page about scoring per game -- Jordan entered the league at 110ppg NBA average, while James entered on a 93ppg avg, which was a 40 year NBA low. There was a difference of more than 12 fewer possessions per game from 1984 to 2004.

Add 12 possessions per game and you probably have Kobe, LeBron, Durant, maybe Melo too all averaging 30+ppg over a season consistently.

What does the difference in pace have to do with the rule changes on hand checking? Pace for the most part just affects cumulative numbers, but the rule changes with regards to fouls directly affect the freedom that offensive players have.

[CajunDevil]

Who would you take - a 27 yr old LeBron or a 27 yr old Jordan? This is an easy question for me - LeBron! The clincher for me is LeBron's physical advantage over MJ. In hindsight MJ was an incredible winner but his ability to win championships was just as in doubt at age 27 as LBJ's is now. MJ also needed the greatest NBA coach ever and Pippin and very good PFs (Grant and Kukoc) to win it. Now if LBJ had Coach K...

[theAlaskanBear]

What does the difference in pace have to do with the rule changes on hand checking? Pace for the most part just affects cumulative numbers, but the rule changes with regards to fouls directly affect the freedom that offensive players have.

In 1979 they instituted stricter rules about hand checking to open up the offensive flow of the game...you were allowed to touch the player as long as you were not seen to "impede" him. There were much stricter rules implemented in the nineties. I don't buy the idea that Jordan faced tougher defenses...based on pace and offensive metrics it was easier to score in the 80s and early 90s.

Listen I am not arguing that LeBron is a better scorer than Jordan. I just think the difference is less than people realize when you consider the era, and when added to James' play making ability and rebounding it is much less clear cut.

Time will tell.

[Chris Randolph]

Who would you take - a 27 yr old LeBron or a 27 yr old Jordan? This is an easy question for me - LeBron! The clincher for me is LeBron's physical advantage over MJ. In hindsight MJ was an incredible winner but his ability to win championships was just as in doubt at age 27 as LBJ's is now. MJ also needed the greatest NBA coach ever and Pippin and very good PFs (Grant and Kukoc) to win it. Now if LBJ had Coach K...

Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc were very good power forwards? Really? I consider Dirk Nowitzki a very good power forward and they don't touch him. Pippen was definitely a very good player but without Jordan he was nothing special.

The game today is not near as rugged as it used to be in Jordan's era. It has become so soft, benefiting the offensive guy. And yet the scoring numbers still aren't as good as it has been pointed out. Why? Skill. This era of basketball is more athlete less skill. In the Bird/Johnson/Thomas/Jordan era it was more skill than athlete.

I'd take Jordan at 27 over Lebron. Take the side of the physical tools all you want but Jordan's mental edge/clutch gene/loyalty to his team are worth more in my opinion. Plus Jordan's physical tools weren't too shabby I'm not ruling out Lebron being a multi NBA champion (I too often argue how it can take time). But Lebron has alreay shown me enough weaknesses mentally to doubt him when comparing him to MJ.

[theAlaskanBear]

Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc were very good power forwards? Really? I consider Dirk Nowitzki a very good power forward and they don't touch him. Pippen was definitely a very good player but without Jordan he was nothing special.

The game today is not near as rugged as it used to be in Jordan's era. It has become so soft, benefiting the offensive guy. And yet the scoring numbers still aren't as good as it has been pointed out. Why? Skill. This era of basketball is more athlete less skill. In the Bird/Johnson/Thomas/Jordan era it was more skill than athlete.

I'd take Jordan at 27 over Lebron. Take the side of the physical tools all you want but Jordan's mental edge/clutch gene/loyalty to his team are worth more in my opinion. Plus Jordan's physical tools weren't too shabby I'm not ruling out Lebron being a multi NBA champion (I too often argue how it can take time). But Lebron has alreay shown me enough weaknesses mentally to doubt him when comparing him to MJ.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that the game was MORE rugged in Jordan's time, yet also that this era is more athletic but less skill which would seem to indicate the opposite: today's game is more physical and more rugged than Jordan's time.

All the NBA scoring and pacing stats indicate the opposite of what you claim -- that the 1980s game was less physical and easier to score...although I will take any evidence you can find indicating otherwise.

[Chris Randolph]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim that the game was MORE rugged in Jordan's time, yet also that this era is more athletic but less skill which would seem to indicate the opposite: today's game is more physical and more rugged than Jordan's time.

All the NBA scoring and pacing stats indicate the opposite of what you claim -- that the 1980s game was less physical and easier to score...although I will take any evidence you can find indicating otherwise.

Ya you may be right, just my opinion here. The scoring is down because offensive skill levels are down. I said today's game is more about being a great athlete than having a great skill set. That's why guys like Blake Griffin can be top 10 in scoring. To me, being more athletic means faster, qucker and jump higher. Just because a game is high scoring doesn't mean it can't be a physical game, maybe it is a testament to the quality of offensive players/shooters. All the flagrant 1 or 2 fouls now-a-days are one example of a softened league. I remember in Jordan's era, in the playoffs, teams were guarding you 94 feet and just bullying people around the court.

[CajunDevil]

Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc were very good power forwards? Really? I consider Dirk Nowitzki a very good power forward and they don't touch him. Pippen was definitely a very good player but without Jordan he was nothing special.

Dirk Nowitzki is GREAT, not just very good. He is one of the top 10 PF to ever play in NBA, imo. Pippin was a great player with Jordan, and very good without him... definitely not "nothing special"... Horace and Toni Kukoc aren't in same category as Dirk, but their stats, especially Grant's during the Championship runs, aren't too dissimilar from Bosh's Heat years.

[Chris Randolph]

Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc were very good power forwards? Really? I consider Dirk Nowitzki a very good power forward and they don't touch him. Pippen was definitely a very good player but without Jordan he was nothing special.

Dirk Nowitzki is GREAT, not just very good. He is one of the top 10 PF to ever play in NBA, imo. Pippin was a great player with Jordan, and very good without him... definitely not "nothing special"... Horace and Toni Kukoc aren't in same category as Dirk, but their stats, especially Grant's during the Championship runs, aren't too dissimilar from Bosh's Heat years.

Ya, you are right that Dirk is great. Probably top 5 PFs. I think everyone can agree that it takes good players around the greatest player(s) for championships to be won, especially multiple 'ships. I am not denying one bit that Lebron is the best combo of skill/athleticism the game has ever seen. But the mental side is so huge. Think of the best of all time at their positions in football or basketball. Most of them were not the most talented but they had something greater: Montana/Elway/Brady, Emmitt Smith, Jerry Rice, Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan.

There are SO MANY really good NBA players and great players. To be the best of all time/top 5 you have to have something inside of you that most don't. I think Lebron has some of it but nothing compared to what made Jordan who he was. That is the difference.

[_Gary]

On a purely physical level a person would have to be blind, deaf and dumb not to recognize LeBron's greatness. I don't think it can be argued that he's anything but the greatest of all time on that level. But as some have reminded us, he's yet to demonstrate the ability to carry his team to the mountaintop. Yes, he's gotten a couple of his teams to the brink, but he's yet to plant the flag on the summit, so to speak. Until last year in the Finals, I was willing to say he just didn't have the help necessary. But there's no getting around the fact he just disappeared down the stretch on a couple of occasions and at this point in his career I definitely think he still has to prove he has the mental chops to be a Champion. And if that's in question then I have no problem with those who are hesitant to anoint him the greatest player of all time right now.

[ice-9]

Again though, Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was 28...LeBron is just now reaching that point in his career. So its a bit premature to judge LeBron when it comes to Championships (and for the record, I dont think he will ever reach six -- I think 2-3 max due to Wade's declining health).

The point isn't that it's premature to judge LeBron now...is that it's premature to anoint him greatest player ever. Win the chips first, and then we'll talk.

I think one of the difficult things to reconcile here is that the "greatest ever" doesn't necessarily have to be the most skilled or athletic, although of course those attributes are needed. Greatest ever is about achievement, which Jordan has and LeBron hasn't...yet.

[JasonEvans]

55-52 in the Celtics-76ers game. Is it halftime or the start of the 4th quarter?

-Jason "no offense!" Evans

[moonpie23]

its ovah

[Chris Randolph]

I'm undecided if I am a Rajon Rondo fan since he played at Kentucky and he has had some attitude issues but I respect his game. Guy is clutch and a great team player on the court. Plus he doesn't puff his chest out after every good play he makes like a certain duo in South Beach

[Eternal Outlaw]

its ovah

Certainly is and I'm not talking about the Celtics/76ers, after watching that series, it's clear Miami can pack their bags for the finals.

[Des Esseintes]

So, Lebron's success is actually tied directly to the success of his teammate (who already has a title and who is clearly among the top 5-10 in the game today). Could one not make a pretty decent argument that if the Heat win this year, it is Wade who has elevated himself further into the pantheon, not Lebron? After all, in the series with the Pacers, the difference in the Heat being down 1-2 and winning 4-2 was not the platy of LeBron James, it was the play of DWade.

-Jason "I agree with Bobby Fan and Starter, at this point Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Wilt, and perhaps a few others would go ahead of Lebron in the all-time draft" Evans

I suppose you could make that argument, provided you were uninterested in truth. You would have to forget that James just completed a regular season not seen statistically since Jordan. You would also have to forget James turning in one the greatest individual games ever played to tie the series and pull Miami back from the brink. You would have to forget that Miami was down 2-1 in Game 4 in part because Wade had a disastrous Game 3, while James was rock solid all series long.

Wade scored 94 points in the last three games of the Indiana series; James scored 93. If you came out of those games arguing that one guy made himself look awesome and the other didn't, I would have to conclude you have an agenda against one of those players that is keeping you from seeing their play objectively. Those were all-time performances we just saw.

Also, I don't at all get your notion that James should be downgraded because his "success is actually tied directly to the success of his teammate." Basketball is a team game. Nobody wins games by his lonesome, and the players that engage in hero-ball are rightfully criticized for it. Carmelo Anthony, anyone? Duke fans ought especially to appreciate that distinction. Jordan won nothing before Pippen came of age, and we neither do nor should hold that against his greatness.