I think folks are forgetting how dominant Jordan could be as a defender. He was first-team All-NBA Defensive team 9 times. Anyone recall the story about how Bobby Hurley and a bunch of college stars scrimmaged against the Dream Team and managed to win a game. Jordan got a real serious look on his face after the college stars won and he said, "I got the ball," meaning Jordan would guard Hurley, one of the best PGs in college hoops history and a year away from being a lottery pick. Hurley was unable to get the ball over half court in the next game (which did not last very long and largely consisted of Jordan dunking after steals).
The idea that James' size makes him some for of nature that would be unstoppable by Jordan is silly. They don't play the same position nor do they play the same style. Lets see James try to stop Wilt in the post. MJ and LJ would not match up with each other in a game. And anyone who thinks James could stay in front of Jordan in MJ's prime needs a history lesson. At a time when the NBA was more disciplined, Jordan was scoring well over 30 points per game routinely. James simply does not come close to being the offensive force that Jordan was nor does he have the ability to consistently stop Jordan. No one did.
Oh, and for all the talk of how James is so much bigger, it is worth pointing out that James has never averaged 8 rebounds per game... but Jordan has.
Lastly, as others have already noted, Jordan imposed his will on the game in a way James can only dream about. It is not all about championships, but there is a playoff-pressure eye test that James has largely failed thus far in his career but that Jordan passes with flying colors (far ahead of any player in hoops history, IMHO). Wake me when James is imposing his will on must-win games and championship rounds.
-Jason "this is not to knock James, who is an amazing player, but to remind some of the greatness of #23" Evans
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Excellent post, Jason. Also worth noting that the supposedly "me first" Jordan averaged 5.3 apg for his career. That included a high of 8.0 per game in 1988-89, a year in which he also averaged 32.5ppg to win the scoring title. Jordan actually played some PG for a stretch that year when both Craig Hodges and John Paxson was injured and strung together a bunch of triple doubles. There is no doubt in my mind that he could have put up similar passing numbers to James if Pippen had not taken over as the team's primary ballhandler and initiator of the offense.
First, they play very similar positions, and you can bet that they'd spend a lot of time guarding each other. And James wouldn't be "unstoppable," but I think he'd be harder for Jordan to defend than vice versa. You bring up Jordan locking down a collegiate Hurley in a scrimmage. Well, how about James locking down the league MVP Derrick Rose in the playoffs? Jordan was a fabulous defender. One of the greatest defensive players ever. But he's never guarded anyone like LeBron James. The converse is also true.
As for the rebound stat, don't get cute. Jordan averaged 8.0 rebounds one time in an era in which there were substantially more possessions per game. Aside from that one instance, he never again averaged 7. James (in an era with fewer possessions per game) has topped 7 rebounds per game (topping out at 7.9) every season but once since his rookie year (and that once was 6.7).
As for the rest, you are conveniently overlooking that all of Jordan's greatness came at a later point in his career than James is at now. James is just now entering his physical prime. If he wins a title this year, he'll be one year ahead of Jordan. And he's already 2 MVP awards ahead of Jordan's pace.
Jordan is unquestionably on the shortest of lists of greatest of all time. I'm just saying that James (at this point in his career) is ahead of where Jordan was at the same point. As such, he should be in that conversation. And I think I'd take James over Jordan based on where I think James is headed.
Whaaat?!?!?
As a rookie, Jordan averaged 29.3 points per game in the playoffs. He was 21 and in his very first year in the NBA. He would never score less than 30 ppg in the playoffs again in his career. Here are his playoff scoring averages--
1984-85 29.3
1985-86 43.7
1986-87 35.7
1987-88 36.3
1988-89 34.8
1989-90 36.7
1990-91 31.1
1991-92 34.5
1992-93 35.1
1994-95 31.5
1995-96 30.7
1996-97 31.1
1997-98 32.4
Those are sick numbers. Not sure anyone in history can rival those. And he was grabbing 7+ rebounds per game and dishing out 7+ assists per game most of the time too. Lebron James has had 2 seasons where he scored 30+ ppg in the playoffs, but is generally 4-8 ppg less than Jordan.
And you say that Jordan was knocked for not being a clutch playoff performer early in his career? That is not at all how I recall it. Ask the Celtics, who were one of the best teams in history when he torched them for 49 and 63 and almost single-handedly beat them in the first round of the 1986 playoffs.
His teammates on the Bulls, by the way, were terrible. It took time for them to build the kind of team that could win a title. It is also worth noting that he was playing in an era of truly dominant, legendary teams that stood in his way. The Bird Celtics, Magic Lakers, and Bad Boys in Detroit are among the pantheon of "special" teams who each had multiple titles. I don't think the Lakers or Spurs of the past 8 or so years since James came in the league are considered quite the same as those 80s and 90s juggernauts. James has also been playing in an Eastern Conference that has been decidedly weak much of the time. The best team in the East has often been no better than the 3rd or 4th best team in the West.
Heck, Jordan was such a playoff force, the Pistons had to invent a whole set of "Jordan Rules" to figure out a way to stop him. I haven't heard anyone mention anything about playing a special defensive alignment to stop Lebron James in the playoffs. Heck, the "Lebron rule" seems to be to let him just shy away from the big moment.
-Jason "worth noting-- James missed the playoffs his first couple seasons in the NBA... Jordan never did (until he got to be too old with the Wiz)" Evans
Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?
An unrepresentative sample of Michael Jordan playoff shooting performances:
3-18
9-35
5-19
4-15
9-30
7-23
5-16
6-19
7-22
5-15
8-24
10-29
9-26
11-31
5-14
9-25
9-25
There’s more -- 29 games with a FG% of .400 or lower -- but you get the point, I hope. Nobody is great every game. No matter how much they hate losing or love winning. No matter how much will they have, or how hard they try to impose it. Not even Michael Jordan. Not even Michael Jordan in the playoffs.
If LeBron James had better teammates for the past several years, he’d probably have a reputation for an indomitable will to win, too. If Michael Jordan’s teammates had been a little worse, we might view him as something slightly south of perfect, too.
(FWIW, at this point, I still have Jordan as the greatest player ever by a hair, but I expect that if James stays healthy, that will change within a few years.)
Jordan was, indeed, a superb defender, but "the Glove" was Gary Payton.
Nope.
Again, Jordan was a superb defender, but a dominant performance in his absolute prime against a college player who was six inches shorter and much less strong & athletic ... well, let's just say I'm a huge Bobby Hurley fan, but I don't find this a particularly compelling example of Jordan's defensive prowess.
Raw rebound totals aren't a particularly good comparison, especially when talking about players from different eras. Jordan only had one season with a rebound rate as good as James' career rebound rate. James has had only one season with a rebound rate as low as Jordan's career rebound rate.
This is an excellent post about how perception flavors reality. I bet the majority of basketball fans, if you ask them "Was Michael Jordan older or younger than LeBron when he won his first championship?", would have no idea that that LeBron is still younger than championship-Jordan.
It is only in hindsight that Jordan becomes this inevitable clutch, unbeatable god. And to think, Jordan had time in college in which to learn and develop his game against lesser competition, and to mature as a person. LeBron was thrown into the NBA at what, 19? He should get credit for his mental strength and focus when so many other young wunderkind flamed out from the pressure or immaturity -- think Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Martell Webster, Darius Miles, Eddy Curry, Kwame Brown -- or took a long time to get on their feet (Tyson Chandler, Bynum).
James is unique in his all round game. You never know what the future will bring (injuries and whatnot), but when its all said and done he has a chance to be the greatest. If you merely double his career numbers. he is on pace to virtually tie Kareem's scoring record with fewer games, on pace to be in the 5-8 range for all time in assists, and an outside shot to break top-30 in rebounds (which is kind of crazy to think about when you consider the great old rebounders in the league). He will never be the scorer of Jordan because he plays a different, less selfish game...
I think once that first title comes you will see his game open up a little more, become less forced and more comfortable with who he is as a player, and his assist number will go back up to where they were in Cleveland.
I'm saying that, as of 1990, there was plenty of talk about how Jordan couldn't win the big one. The same arguments about "look at the championships" that are applied to James now were used to call Magic and Bird better than Jordan (which was silly - Jordan was better, obviously). It wasn't right then (with Jordan), and it isn't right now (with James). The two players are unquestionably among the top-5 players ever, but as of age 27 both were battling the label of "can't lead his team to a championship" despite being clearly the best players in the game at the time.
The same is true of the Cavs. They were a joke of a franchise before James got there and were a joke again after he left.
The "Jordan rules" were simply "foul him hard and often and get him frustrated." Sound familiar? Hint: it's what the Pacers tried to do.
Again, don't get cute. Jordan made the playoffs only because the bottom of the East was a joke. His teams were under .500 his first three years. James has had only one sub-.500 season (at 19).
That's a pretty big "almost": The Celtics swept the Bulls, 3 games to 0. They won game 1 by 19 points and game 3 by 18 points. In game three, facing elimination, Jordan shot 5-18 for 19 points with 5 turnovers and 6 fouls. Jordan was, to be sure, brilliant in that series. But a series like that from James would prompt mockery about his inability to come through in an elimination game.
Well... in those first six playoff seasons when Jordan didn't win, he averaged 35.8 points per game. No less than Larry Bird called him "God disguised as Michael Jordan," and that was after a game the Celtics won. Why did they win? Because Jordan had Kyle Macy and Dave Corzine in his starting lineup. You're absolutely right that Jordan heard those same questions about not elevating his teammates, but for a long time, he had teammates that probably couldn't be elevated, especially with the league much stronger on the whole than it is now. Even Pippen wasn't truly ready before they won in 1991, with the migraines and such. That's not Jordan's fault; he had 31-9-8 in the migraine game while Pippen had two points.
Let's see what happens. LeBron has a good chance at a title, considering the Heat are virtually certain to make the NBA Finals, but if they get beaten there... I mean, he's no spring chicken. He's got a lot of miles on those legs, plays a lot of minutes. Same for Wade. That window might not be open nearly as long as we all thought it would be. He's got to get the monkey off his back now.
But you know this as a Bulls fan: This only magnifies how incredible it was that Jordan essentially won six championships in a row. And if he had stayed in the league the whole time, he might have won nine. I mean, game over.
And James has averaged 28 ppg and more rpg and apg despite playing in an era with substantially fewer possessions per game (meaning substantially fewer opportunities to collect count stats).
For the record, I'm not sure that Jordan would have gone on to win 8 in a row (he'd have never won 9). I think he was burned out from basketball after the 1993 championship run, and needed a new challenge. He might have won another title or two (I think the Rockets might have gotten him one of those years). But by 1995-1996, I think he'd have burned through all he had emotionally. I think it can't be understated how draining those championship runs were on him and the Bulls. I think he was done in 1993 just as he was again done in 1998. The 1.5 years off gave him the break and motivation he needed to return to glory.
Obviously that's purely conjecture on my part, but so is suggesting he'd have won 8 in a row. And James certainly has a long way to go to match Jordan's legacy. But I think it's completely reasonable to discuss him in the same breath as Jordan in terms of greatness as a player. Both were unbelievable.
Jason, you are wrong here.
How can you call the NBA more disciplined in the 80s. Jordan benefited from one of the most prolific offensive periods in recent league history.
The average NBA score was 110ppg when Jordan entered the league and didn't fall below 100ppg until 1995-6 season. When LeBron entered the league the average NBA score was 93.5 -- a five decade low!!!
Only two teams scored more than 100ppg this year -- the Spurs and the Thunder, last year it was just the Thunder...the game has changed, and it is harder for players to score due to the slower pace of the game.
Also keep in mind LeBron played under the prolific offensive teams of Mike Brown for the first 7 years
Math was never my strong suit. I did mean eight. But it took Jordan not being there one year, and then attempting to play without the benefit of a training camp or anything the next year for anyone to take him out. I think it's more likely he'd have won both of the seasons he missed than not, given that he won championships in the other six when he was there the whole time. Those Bulls teams were better than those Rockets teams. Heck, the Knicks, as flawed as they were, should have won one of those Finals (humor me on that), and Houston caught Orlando well before they were ready. You make a good point about Jordan being burned out; there was simply no way he was going to even attempt to start the season after the first three-peat. I do believe Jordan would have picked it up when it counted out of a sheer hatred of losing, even if he had dragged himself into the season. But you're right, we'll never really know since he didn't play.
I definitely can't dispute, nor would I want to, that both LeBron and Jordan are/were unbelievable players in their own right. There are definitely a lot of similarities between the two in terms of situation, with those early Cleveland teams. I just feel given the past two postseasons of LeBron wilting when the chance for greatness was right in front of him... I mean, I never saw Jordan do anything like that. He had subpar games, he was human, but it didn't go like that. I can't put LeBron on Jordan's level, all things considered. Just can't. Though as a longtime fan, I'd love to see if he can carry over the power he's currently playing with into the Finals.
I'm usually in the camp of "Jordan is the greatest ever and it's not even close", but the arguments here for James show it's much less cut and dry than I thought.
My two cents: before Jordan won his first championship, while many questioned if he would ever win a championship, NO ONE questioned his will to win or his effort. Both of those questions have been legitimately leveled at Lebron. This is particualrly puzzling given that James has also turned in playoff perfomances where his ability to score at will and dominate the game is almost superhuman. While its unrealistic to expect that every game, the huge variation in perceived effort/results certainly does not compare favorably with Jordan. I will also point out that Jordan's teams never lost an NBA finals. You can give credit to Lebron for getting his teams there earlier, but if you watched last year's series against Dallas, it was clear that Miami had more talent yet did not play up to their ability, particularly Lebron.
What Lebron showed in the last three games against the Pacers is the kind of focus and determination that characterized Jordan's career. If James keeps it up and wins a championship this year, then a lot of this criticism will disappear. But if he falls short again and he stops making plays in the 4th quarter, it will be a very long summer for "King" James.
When it comes to discussions about LeBron, I usually feel the need to defend him, so this is a bit different.
LeBron has a major blemish on his record that will never go away: the 2011 Finals (and, possibly, 2009 vs. the Celtics). I don't understand exactly how it happened, but it clearly became mental for him. And I label it a 'major' blemish, because we aren't making the case for LeBron just being a great player - the discussion here is greatest ever, so there is little leeway.
As for Jordan vs. LeBron, I'm taking Jordan, and that choice became close to cemented because of the concerns over my above point. Even otherwise, I had Jordan with the edge because of his post-up game which adds a key dynamic to an offense, and also because rule changes (notably hand checking) have now given perimeter players freedom that didn't previously exist.
Finally, Jordan isn't the only name that should be brought up here. If we were running a draft inclusive of all players, I'd take Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, Shaq, Olajuwon, and Duncan before LeBron. And I'm not sure I'd take Jordan first.
This is a valid point, but I do think a championship would go a long way towards wiping away those blemishes, and multiple championships would erase them altogether.
I honestly think this is going to be the year he gets that first ring. According to the SI article published several weeks ago, the guy completely re-dedicated himself to the game after last year's humiliating loss against Dallas. I would argue that we are seeing the consequences of this so far in the playoffs.
I also think Lebron has matured to the point that he'll no longer be afraid to assert himself in the fourth quarter of big games. Time will tell. He'll need something from Wade and the supporting cast to get there too, so it's far from a sure thing. But my gut tells me that this is going to be the year.
If you haven't read the SI piece on Lebron, check it out here: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...mes/index.html