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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    Sorry CDu, I guess in my mind the instigator deserves the same punishment as the retaliator. Hence my use of the word equitable. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

    It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, I don't think Hansbrough's hard foul should be viewed as instigation here. It was a hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty. The appropriate response was another hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty - not an intentional, two-handed shot to the face with no other intent but to hit the face.

    Hansbrough got punished for his transgression. Haslem got punished for his transgression. Punishing them equally is, in my opinion, the lazy way out. Also, it just enforces the idea that the "retaliatory" player should go ahead and get his money's worth.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    any word on granger and west for tonight?
    West is ready to play tonight. I guess Battier didn't really roll into his knee on purpose as he claimed. *blank stare*

    Granger didn't practice yesterday but said he's going to play tonight.

  3. #243
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, I don't think Hansbrough's hard foul should be viewed as instigation here. It was a hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty. The appropriate response was another hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty - not an intentional, two-handed shot to the face with no other intent but to hit the face.

    Hansbrough got punished for his transgression. Haslem got punished for his transgression. Punishing them equally is, in my opinion, the lazy way out. Also, it just enforces the idea that the "retaliatory" player should go ahead and get his money's worth.
    Hmm. This bolded part is probably your strongest point, and I hadn't thought of it before. If we always bluntly punish both the instigator and retaliator equally, it will incentivize a more volatile retaliation. The retaliator will "get his money's worth," as you say, no matter the intensity of the original foul. In other words, it would encourage escalation in all scenarios, even relatively minor flagrant fouls, which is exactly what we don't want.

    In any case, I'm personally okay with the decisions as they have been handed down, although if they had decided to suspend Hansbrough, I would not have objected to that either.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    ... It was very similar to the Henderson foul on Hansbrough in that there was clear intent to (a) prevent a basket by any means necessary and (b) commit a hard foul ....
    CDu, I agree with a whole lot of your point of view on the various fouls in the Heat-Pacers game. I disagree with this bit, however. I believe GHenderson had a clear intent to block Hans' shot with force; I don't believe GHenderson had any intent whatsoever to commit a hard foul. Doofus twisted his body and the extreme force shot block attempt morphed into a hard foul ... but I don't think the hard foul was G's intent, at all.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree. But to clarify, I don't think Hansbrough's hard foul should be viewed as instigation here. It was a hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty. The appropriate response was another hard playoff foul that bordered on dirty - not an intentional, two-handed shot to the face with no other intent but to hit the face.

    Hansbrough got punished for his transgression. Haslem got punished for his transgression. Punishing them equally is, in my opinion, the lazy way out. Also, it just enforces the idea that the "retaliatory" player should go ahead and get his money's worth.
    I think this is the root of the disagreement. I thought Hansbrough's play crossed the line, especially given the fact that he drew blood. And we cannot ignore that he targeted one of the best players on the Heat - a clear attempt to intimidate and injure as much as block a shot.

  6. #246
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    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out.
    What if kid 2 smacks kid 1, and kid 1 pulls out a rifle and shoots kid 2 in the face? Should they be punished equally because, hey, he started it?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    I think this is the root of the disagreement. I thought Hansbrough's play crossed the line, especially given the fact that he drew blood. And we cannot ignore that he targeted one of the best players on the Heat - a clear attempt to intimidate and injure as much as block a shot.
    I think this is very important - Hans is a scrub who raked his nails across the face of an All Star in an effort to injure one of the heat's best players. I think the Pacer's coach also made a cruel and calculated decision to leave Hans in the game. In ameture basketball coaches always bench a player who gets called for a flagrant foul because the retaliation is coming and the ameture coach cares about the health of his player. The Pacers coach left Hans in knowing that retaliation was coming because it helps the Pacers more to have a Heat player suspended for retaliating than it hurts to take the risk of a scrub being injured.

  8. #248
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    Sorry CDu, I guess in my mind the instigator deserves the same punishment as the retaliator. Hence my use of the word equitable. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

    It's like my kids. When kid #1 smacks kid #2, it's almost always in retaliation for something that kid #2 did. My solution? Give them both a time out.
    We also need to remember that this particular instigator is to be hated and vilified at every turn. 9F

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by niveklaen View Post
    I think this is very important - Hans is a scrub who raked his nails across the face of an All Star in an effort to injure one of the heat's best players. I think the Pacer's coach also made a cruel and calculated decision to leave Hans in the game. In ameture basketball coaches always bench a player who gets called for a flagrant foul because the retaliation is coming and the ameture coach cares about the health of his player. The Pacers coach left Hans in knowing that retaliation was coming because it helps the Pacers more to have a Heat player suspended for retaliating than it hurts to take the risk of a scrub being injured.
    First, Hansbrough isn't a scrub. He's a key reserve. He's not a star, but he's definitely not a scrub.

    Beyond that, I think it's very unlikely that Hansbrough intentionally raked Wade across the face. Considering how hard he swung and how much both he and Wade were moving (with Wade moving away from him), the odds of making good contact are miniscule. Instead, I think he was merely trying to commit an excessively hard foul. Trying to send a message? Absolutely. Trying to injure another player? I don't think so. It's easy to look at slow motion replays and come to the conclusion that Hansbrough had the intent of raking Wade's face. But watching in real time, it's just doesn't seem feasible.

    I also don't think Vogel intentionally left Hansbrough out as a sacrificial lamb. For one thing, you'd lose the respect of your team if they felt you were putting them in danger. That just smells too sinister to be true. I think he just felt that Hansbrough's foul was a simple hard foul that accidentally resulted in a cut, and merely didn't have the experience to consider the possibility that the Heat might escalate matters. Remember: this is his first time experiencing serious playoff intensity.

  10. #250
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    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    I was struck by how much Hasbro's foul looked exactly like the one Gerald Henderson committed on him a few year back that resulted in calls for the DA to indict Henderson for assault. Had Hasbro's "aim" been a little better and hasd he hit Wade in the nose, there is little question we would have seen the same gushing blood that inspired so much hatred a few miles down the road.



    That said, I think the punishments were appropriate. If anything, I think Pittman deserved something stronger. He just brutally laid out a totally defenseless guy. Heck, if I knew calling Lebron a choker would bring that kind of retaliation, I would have been far more measured in my assessment of the final games played by the Cavs and Heat over the past 2 seasons

    As for Philly and the Celtics, there is little question that the Eastern Conference playoffs have been deeply impacted by untimely injuries. Orlando and Chicago would be completely different teams with the best PG and best C in the NBA able to play. The upshot of their absences is that the Heat would seems to have a fairly clear path to the finals. I expect the aging Celtics (or the still too young Sixers) to be no match for either the Heat or the Pacers in the next round.

    Of course, what I am really looking forward to seeing is the Thunder and Spurs, who are pretty clearly the two best teams in the NBA right now... and it does not appear to be all that close.

    -Jason "if the Heat get Bosh back at full strength, they could pose a threat in the finals I suppose" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  11. #251
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    raleigh
    the only difference between those two fouls is that henderson got all ball.


    .......hans, on the other hand, got ball AND wade.....
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  12. #252
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    Apr 2010
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    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    As for Philly and the Celtics, there is little question that the Eastern Conference playoffs have been deeply impacted by untimely injuries. Orlando and Chicago would be completely different teams with the best PG and best C in the NBA able to play. The upshot of their absences is that the Heat would seems to have a fairly clear path to the finals. I expect the aging Celtics (or the still too young Sixers) to be no match for either the Heat or the Pacers in the next round.

    Of course, what I am really looking forward to seeing is the Thunder and Spurs, who are pretty clearly the two best teams in the NBA right now... and it does not appear to be all that close.

    -Jason "if the Heat get Bosh back at full strength, they could pose a threat in the finals I suppose" Evans
    I'll give you Howard, but I'd probably take Paul over Rose at PG. Although both are stellar players, Paul is a better defender (four time 1st or 2nd team all-defense and perennially top 5 in steals) and does a better job of making his teammates better (Clippers/Hornets without Paul v. Bulls regular season with Rose injured). Rose puts up gaudier scoring numbers and is just entering his prime, but Paul is a better passer and better shooter.

    I'm with you on the Spurs/Thunder matchup. It's going to be two of the league's most efficient offenses playing some of their best basketball of the season. The Spurs are clearly peaking at the right time, while the Thunder had the league's best record for most of the year until a late season slump. Not to discount the Spurs' recent dominance, but they haven't exactly played the strongest competition in the playoffs. The Jazz were a fringe playoff team and the Clippers, despite having Chris Paul, are still a few pieces away from being serious contenders (until Griffin can hit free throws or make teams respect his jump shot, they won't go anywhere). The Thunder, on the other hand, played a veteran Mavs team, which is admittedly better on paper than in real life, and a Lakers team with 3 of the top 25-30 players in the game (Kobe, Bynum, and Gasol). Granted going from Phil Jackson to Mike Brown and Lamar Odom to the somewhat under-appreciated Josh McRoberts hurt, but they still had Kobe and upgraded to Ramon Sessions at PG. It's going to be interesting to see whether the Thunder can break through this year or continue their recent trend of losing to the eventual champion. I'm going to go ahead and pencil in the Heat to come out of the east, and predict that the Thunder take out the Spurs in 6. If the Heat get Bosh back, I think their defense is going to be too much for the Spurs/Thunder in the finals, with the Thunder lacking a serious offensive threat inside. Without Bosh, I think they can still beat the Thunder in the championship, but Duncan and the Spurs are too balanced and would abuse the Heat's bigs on the offensive end.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by dcdevil2009 View Post
    I'll give you Howard, but I'd probably take Paul over Rose at PG. Although both are stellar players, Paul is a better defender (four time 1st or 2nd team all-defense and perennially top 5 in steals) and does a better job of making his teammates better (Clippers/Hornets without Paul v. Bulls regular season with Rose injured). Rose puts up gaudier scoring numbers and is just entering his prime, but Paul is a better passer and better shooter.

    I'm with you on the Spurs/Thunder matchup. It's going to be two of the league's most efficient offenses playing some of their best basketball of the season. The Spurs are clearly peaking at the right time, while the Thunder had the league's best record for most of the year until a late season slump. Not to discount the Spurs' recent dominance, but they haven't exactly played the strongest competition in the playoffs. The Jazz were a fringe playoff team and the Clippers, despite having Chris Paul, are still a few pieces away from being serious contenders (until Griffin can hit free throws or make teams respect his jump shot, they won't go anywhere). The Thunder, on the other hand, played a veteran Mavs team, which is admittedly better on paper than in real life, and a Lakers team with 3 of the top 25-30 players in the game (Kobe, Bynum, and Gasol). Granted going from Phil Jackson to Mike Brown and Lamar Odom to the somewhat under-appreciated Josh McRoberts hurt, but they still had Kobe and upgraded to Ramon Sessions at PG. It's going to be interesting to see whether the Thunder can break through this year or continue their recent trend of losing to the eventual champion. I'm going to go ahead and pencil in the Heat to come out of the east, and predict that the Thunder take out the Spurs in 6. If the Heat get Bosh back, I think their defense is going to be too much for the Spurs/Thunder in the finals, with the Thunder lacking a serious offensive threat inside. Without Bosh, I think they can still beat the Thunder in the championship, but Duncan and the Spurs are too balanced and would abuse the Heat's bigs on the offensive end.
    I think you're nitpicking and missing the point. Rose is arguably the best PG in the league. You could also make a strong case for either Rondo or Paul. But that's not Jason's point. With Rose, the Bulls were arguably the best team in the NBA, and certainly a strong threat to the Heat. Without him, the Bulls were beaten 4 of 5 by a sub-.500 team. As such, the Eastern Conference should be a cake walk for the Heat.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcdevil2009 View Post
    I'll give you Howard, but I'd probably take Paul over Rose at PG. Although both are stellar players, Paul is a better defender (four time 1st or 2nd team all-defense and perennially top 5 in steals) and does a better job of making his teammates better (Clippers/Hornets without Paul v. Bulls regular season with Rose injured). Rose puts up gaudier scoring numbers and is just entering his prime, but Paul is a better passer and better shooter.

    I'm with you on the Spurs/Thunder matchup. It's going to be two of the league's most efficient offenses playing some of their best basketball of the season. The Spurs are clearly peaking at the right time, while the Thunder had the league's best record for most of the year until a late season slump. Not to discount the Spurs' recent dominance, but they haven't exactly played the strongest competition in the playoffs. The Jazz were a fringe playoff team and the Clippers, despite having Chris Paul, are still a few pieces away from being serious contenders (until Griffin can hit free throws or make teams respect his jump shot, they won't go anywhere). The Thunder, on the other hand, played a veteran Mavs team, which is admittedly better on paper than in real life, and a Lakers team with 3 of the top 25-30 players in the game (Kobe, Bynum, and Gasol). Granted going from Phil Jackson to Mike Brown and Lamar Odom to the somewhat under-appreciated Josh McRoberts hurt, but they still had Kobe and upgraded to Ramon Sessions at PG. It's going to be interesting to see whether the Thunder can break through this year or continue their recent trend of losing to the eventual champion. I'm going to go ahead and pencil in the Heat to come out of the east, and predict that the Thunder take out the Spurs in 6. If the Heat get Bosh back, I think their defense is going to be too much for the Spurs/Thunder in the finals, with the Thunder lacking a serious offensive threat inside. Without Bosh, I think they can still beat the Thunder in the championship, but Duncan and the Spurs are too balanced and would abuse the Heat's bigs on the offensive end.
    I agree with both you and Jason that Spurs and Thunder should be fun. As with all injured players, I hope Bosh can be healthy (also important for K and the gang's Olympic success) to make the finals more interesting. I also believe that if Bosh is healthy, the Heat should win the next series, even though I expect Pierce will win a game or two and keep the Celts competitive. As you can see, I expect the Celts to prevail at home in game 7, and hope they do, as I really like Pierce as a player and have always liked Ray Allen.
    I thought your comparison of the Spurs and Thunder's opponents interesting and a good point, but I think the Spurs have been playing such good basketball lately, they would be able to beat just about anyone, except maybe the Thunder or a full strength Bulls or full strength Heat. Should be an interesting next few weeks.
    “Those two kids, they’re champions,” Krzyzewski said of his senior leaders. “They’re trying to teach the other kids how to become that, and it’s a long road to become that.”

  15. #255
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    Macon, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think you're nitpicking and missing the point. Rose is arguably the best PG in the league. You could also make a strong case for either Rondo or Paul. But that's not Jason's point. With Rose, the Bulls were arguably the best team in the NBA, and certainly a strong threat to the Heat. Without him, the Bulls were beaten 4 of 5 by a sub-.500 team. As such, the Eastern Conference should be a cake walk for the Heat.
    While were on the subject of nitpicking, the 76ers were 35-31 in the regular season. And they have Elton Brand which makes them winners in my book.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    What if kid 2 smacks kid 1, and kid 1 pulls out a rifle and shoots kid 2 in the face? Should they be punished equally because, hey, he started it?
    You know, in hindsight I agree that my kid analogy doesn't hold water. The reason I end up punishing both my kids equally is because I'm rarely there to see who started the brewhaha, and I don't have instant replay to fall back on. And it's not like they're going to give me a straight story, either!

    With the benefit of instant replay, it is absolutely possible to dole out an appropriate punishment to each player on a case-by-case basis.

    That said, I still stand by my belief that Hansbrough crossed the line and should have received the same punishment as Haslem. Jason Evans's picture of the play pretty much cemented that view in my mind.

  17. #257
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    well, D wade put the hammer down on psycho t and his boyz......to go into indy with 3 guys down, and come out with the win, you gotta believe that the Heat are looking good....
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  18. #258
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Wade was brilliant tonight in Game 6, but when the Pacers made their last run and cut the Heat lead down to 6 with 2 minutes to go, it was LeBron James who took over, taking it strong to the hoop and scoring on the next two possessions, followed by a tough 20 footer, and it was over and done with. As if any additional evidence was needed, further talk that this guy "can't close" just gets sillier and sillier.

  19. #259
    I did notice in the boxscore that Hanswalker had a strong 9 minutes - he was -19 for the performance.

  20. #260
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Wade was brilliant tonight in Game 6, but when the Pacers made their last run and cut the Heat lead down to 6 with 2 minutes to go, it was LeBron James who took over, taking it strong to the hoop and scoring on the next two possessions, followed by a tough 20 footer, and it was over and done with. As if any additional evidence was needed, further talk that this guy "can't close" just gets sillier and sillier.
    The LeBron hating has really, in my opinion, begun to blind people from seeing what a truly special player he is. How often does he get branded as a player who simply overpowers people physically? While it's true that he does, he also happens to be one of the most cerebral players in the game. His court vision and passing are at times nothing short of unbelievable. If you ask me, he's not just the best in the world. He's a transcendent talent. I want to see him get it done this year.
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

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