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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I agree but film students and software engineering students are expected to qualify and make minimal advancements toward a degree to remain enrolled and no one is suggesting that we pay them for performing in plays and completing course work. In fact no one ever speaks of a "pretense" regarding student actors or student engineers. Giving up the "pretense" usually comes just ahead of suggesting that players should be paid which I'm opposed to but that is an entirely different discussion for another thread. I'm in favor of treating athletes exactly the same as the other students and at the point academics become a "pretense" it is time to go pro.
    My point was directed more to rebutting the concept that certain guys shouldn't go to college (I think you mentioned Kobe and leBron) if they are mostly (or even wholly) interested in going pro ASAP. I have a contrary view. I like the system that sets up incentives for guys to go to college, in part because I like the college game, and in part because I think just about everyone benefits from a liberal arts education. Of course they have to meet the required academic standards. But I think Kobe and LeBron would have gotten something very valuable out of college. No one should force them to do it. But I like the incentives in place to encourage college.

    The "pretense" I speak of is the one about how elite college basketball players are also supposed to be very serious students of economics or italian. With some renaissance-man type exceptions (including a bunch of them at Duke-- like Langdon in my day, who was a very smart dude and serious student) that's not the case and it's not bad. That's my point about engineers and filmmakers-- they aren't on campus primarily to study economics and italian, but they may study those things, take them sort of lightly and get Cs in them. That's not bad! They are enriching campus life in other ways.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monmouth77 View Post
    I don't disagree with this, necessarily. And I am not totally against going back to the 18 year old age limit. My point is a little different.

    Stipulating that the 19-year-old age limit is the rule (as it is), I would rather muddle through with the current amalgam of "minor league" options, which range from college, to playing abroad (see Jennings, Brandon), to heading straight to the present-day D-League (not common) than try to set the conditions for a baseball-type minor league that might siphon off more than just future hall-of-famers like KG, LeBron, and Kobe, but could instead (as in baseball) professionalize most of the top talent at age 18.

    In other words I don't want to see a system that operates to really cut the top talent layer out of the college game and turn the whole NCAA into the Missouri Valley Conference.

    But my larger point was that it is not likely to happen because of the love for NCAA basketball and the history and place of the college game in the sport.

    I do think, however, that we ought to lift some of the pretenses we have about "student athletes," even at a place like Duke. I knew engineering students on campus that weren't great writers, and prioritized their majors, but benefited from required courses in the humanities. Not sure why basketball players cannot benefit from (even if they don't excel at) the liberal arts education that sits in the background of their -- let's be honest -- primary pursuit. Why is a Duke basketball player different from a film student at Southern Cal who wants to make it in Hollywood? Or the software engineering student at Stanford who wants to create something and leave school as soon as possible to join a Silicon Valley start-up?
    In my scenario, the pro leagues would have no need for an age limit. The idea of scholarship contracts (if the NCAA allows) would turn the tables on the idea of one and done, and make each athlete who comes aboard a true student athlete. The ones that are not that interested in getting a degree would find their own paths to development leagues or minor leagues or Eastern European leagues. Let the leagues draft as they please, but see to it that the athletes are free to then choose a path that suits them. Those that want an education can get it, but those not so inclined toward an education get to ride around on buses to near empty ball parks and gyms all over the country for a while until they get noticed. Guys like Lebron James would naturally fall outside of this, and should be allowed to take advantage of their skills whenever the can. They are magic and can produce immediately in their chosen professional sport.

  3. #43

    Ball in NCAA's court

    I think that waiting on the NBA to change anything is a futile exercise. I like what baseball has done, but what about this?

    1. Allow kids to continue to apply for any draft out of high school. If they do, they have cast their die. No college.

    2. All student-athletes entering college as a freshman must stay for at least three years (maybe four?). The NCAA would require all these entering freshman student-athletes to sign a contractual agreement to that end. If they leave early for the pros (NBA or overseas), the agreement would require the student-athlete to indemnify the school in an amount commensurate with the number of years of college remaining when they bolted. We all know that full scholarships are year-to-year, but in general practice, they all last four years.

    The superstars could/would write the check, but this approach might give pause to the guys with stars in their eyes. It would also send the message that college is first and foremost an institution of higher learning and a place that young people grow, mature and prepare themselves for life. It's not a farm system for the pros.

    Any thoughts? Attorneys?

  4. #44
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    While I don't necessarily think it's fair, you probably have to consider Greg Oden a bust.
    I dont consider anyone that has injuries to slow the progress of their career or end their career is considered a bust.

    A bust is someone that pretty much sucks at basketball, like Hasheem Thabeet.

    Would you consider Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams, and Grant Hill's career a bust?

  5. #45
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    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Grant Hill's Career

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    I dont consider anyone that has injuries to slow the progress of their career or end their career is considered a bust.

    A bust is someone that pretty much sucks at basketball, like Hasheem Thabeet.

    Would you consider Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams, and Grant Hill's career a bust?
    By any definition, Grant Hill's career has not been a bust. Let's look at the top six picks of the 1994 NBA draft. The amazing thing is that three of these guys are still playing, 18 years later.

    Grant (#3) has played 34 thousand minutes and scored 17,044 points.

    The #1 pick, Glenn Robinson of Purdue, retired with 25 thousand minutes and 14,234 points.

    The #2 pick, Jason KIdd, has played 48 thousand minutes and scored 17,071 points.

    The #4 pick, Donyell Marshall, played 25 thousand minutes and scored 10,716 points.

    The #5 pick, Juwan Howard, has played 37 thousand minutes and scored 16,138 points.

    The #6 pick, Sharone Wright, played under five thousand minutes and scored only 1,974 points.

    Anyway, no player with 17 thousand points in the NBA is a bust.

    sagegrouse

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    I dont consider anyone that has injuries to slow the progress of their career or end their career is considered a bust.

    A bust is someone that pretty much sucks at basketball, like Hasheem Thabeet.

    Would you consider Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams, and Grant Hill's career a bust?
    A bust is someone who doesn't live up to the expectations placed upon them when drafted. Draft picks are opportunities. If a player doesn't develop as expected given their draft position, for whatever reason, that player is a bust.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Verga3 View Post
    I think that waiting on the NBA to change anything is a futile exercise. I like what baseball has done, but what about this?

    1. Allow kids to continue to apply for any draft out of high school. If they do, they have cast their die. No college.

    2. All student-athletes entering college as a freshman must stay for at least three years (maybe four?). The NCAA would require all these entering freshman student-athletes to sign a contractual agreement to that end. If they leave early for the pros (NBA or overseas), the agreement would require the student-athlete to indemnify the school in an amount commensurate with the number of years of college remaining when they bolted. We all know that full scholarships are year-to-year, but in general practice, they all last four years.

    The superstars could/would write the check, but this approach might give pause to the guys with stars in their eyes. It would also send the message that college is first and foremost an institution of higher learning and a place that young people grow, mature and prepare themselves for life. It's not a farm system for the pros.

    Any thoughts? Attorneys?
    This is an interesting idea but I would make one adjustment. If the 3-yr scholarship contract is broken, the player has to reimburse the school for the years they were enrolled not the years remaining. I don't like the idea that the player is reimbursing the school for lost basketball revenue or whatever from their departure after they leave. Instead the contract is for 3 years but, if the player leaves early, he didn't live up to his commitment so he has to pay back the scholarship he received.

  8. #48
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    Feb 2007
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    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Verga3 View Post
    I think that waiting on the NBA to change anything is a futile exercise. I like what baseball has done, but what about this?

    1. Allow kids to continue to apply for any draft out of high school. If they do, they have cast their die. No college.

    2. All student-athletes entering college as a freshman must stay for at least three years (maybe four?). The NCAA would require all these entering freshman student-athletes to sign a contractual agreement to that end. If they leave early for the pros (NBA or overseas), the agreement would require the student-athlete to indemnify the school in an amount commensurate with the number of years of college remaining when they bolted. We all know that full scholarships are year-to-year, but in general practice, they all last four years.

    The superstars could/would write the check, but this approach might give pause to the guys with stars in their eyes. It would also send the message that college is first and foremost an institution of higher learning and a place that young people grow, mature and prepare themselves for life. It's not a farm system for the pros.

    Any thoughts? Attorneys?
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    This is an interesting idea but I would make one adjustment. If the 3-yr scholarship contract is broken, the player has to reimburse the school for the years they were enrolled not the years remaining. I don't like the idea that the player is reimbursing the school for lost basketball revenue or whatever from their departure after they leave. Instead the contract is for 3 years but, if the player leaves early, he didn't live up to his commitment so he has to pay back the scholarship he received.
    Verga3's plan is quite similar to mine, but I would reverse his #1 point. Instead I'd let the leagues draft whoever is available without any applications from the athletes, and then allow the athletes to accept the draft selection, delay their reply, or simply reject it. I also suggested that the NCAA should allow for 3 year scholarship contracts with an optional fourth year in lieu of the current year by year plan. On reimbursing the school for the years enrolled if leaving early, I don't know. This is a sticky point. Perhaps the contract should contain a legal restraint on the athlete prohibiting participation in professional sports until after the contract expires. Lawyers have the answer, I am sure, so I'll second Verga3's appeal to the legal community. This is all speculation, of course, but isn't that what we do around here.

    As to reimbursing th college for the scholarship costs, somebody else can argue for it, but I can't.

  9. #49
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    A bust is someone who doesn't live up to the expectations placed upon them when drafted. Draft picks are opportunities. If a player doesn't develop as expected given their draft position, for whatever reason, that player is a bust.
    So you would consider Oden, Hurley, and Williams a bust?

  10. #50
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    Feb 2007
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    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    So you would consider Oden, Hurley, and Williams a bust?
    There just has to be more than one kind of bust. Injury or off court accidents can really bust up a career. Then there is the self inflicted bust in which a player can't be coached, or is lazy, or can't get along with team mates, or messes with strange chemicals or people. That destroys career, reputation, or family. Finally we get the coach who screws up a player, or who screws up a trade or a draft choice and can't get it right. The player involved can't hack it, but he didn't screw up. His coach did it, and the player gets labeled a bust through no fault of his own. There's more, I guess, and that's why we only have 30 NBA teams, and a lot of them still have busts on their rosters.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    Verga3's plan is quite similar to mine, but I would reverse his #1 point. Instead I'd let the leagues draft whoever is available without any applications from the athletes, and then allow the athletes to accept the draft selection, delay their reply, or simply reject it. I also suggested that the NCAA should allow for 3 year scholarship contracts with an optional fourth year in lieu of the current year by year plan. On reimbursing the school for the years enrolled if leaving early, I don't know. This is a sticky point. Perhaps the contract should contain a legal restraint on the athlete prohibiting participation in professional sports until after the contract expires. Lawyers have the answer, I am sure, so I'll second Verga3's appeal to the legal community. This is all speculation, of course, but isn't that what we do around here.

    As to reimbursing th college for the scholarship costs, somebody else can argue for it, but I can't.
    Thanks, Jarhead. I still think that if high school prospects have to apply first, as a condition, that they would be encouraged to more carefully think through this huge step as an 18 year-old. My personal policy preference would be to always "err to college". By mandating high school kids to apply, rather than be drafted, it puts the ball in the player and parents hands from the start, rather than reacting (or being enamoured) to a professional franchise sending their love. I also like the 3+ year scholarship contracts for all sports. What happens now in practice is tantamount to that anyway.

    I believe the contractual reimbursement would work, but I'm not an attorney either.
    Last edited by Verga3; 04-28-2012 at 11:43 PM. Reason: Finished post

  12. #52
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    Feb 2007
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    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Verga3 View Post
    Thanks, Jarhead. I still think that if high school prospects have to apply first, as a condition, that they would be encouraged to more carefully think through this huge step as an 18 year-old. My personal policy preference would be to always "err to college". By mandating high school kids to apply, rather than be drafted, it puts the ball in the player and parents hands from the start, rather than reacting (or being enamoured) to a professional franchise sending their love. I also like the 3+ year scholarship contracts for all sports. What happens now in practice is tantamount to that anyway.

    I believe the contractual reimbursement would work, but I'm not an attorney either.
    There is some merit to your suggestion, but the part I don't care for is the automatic loss of college eligibility to the athlete who puts his name on the draft list. If the NCAA did something like this, I'm pretty sure that they would not take away college eligibility just for putting one's name on the list. As I understand the baseball draft system, the names go on the list automatically at a certain age. Many kids drafted early choose other paths without losing college eligibility. That works for me. Why not try it for all team sports?

    There was, several years ago, a young high school baseball player who managed to hide from MLB when he was first eligible for the draft. Instead he and his dad gamed the system, he was not drafted, and started out his career as a free agent. He was able to go with the highest bidder, and I believe he had a pretty good career. There would be mayhem if that was the norm, and the Yankees would be the top team in every sport. The draft is essential for fair competition, so some controls are necessary. Maybe a national sports commissioner to set reasonable rules for all levels of all sports would work, or not.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    There is some merit to your suggestion, but the part I don't care for is the automatic loss of college eligibility to the athlete who puts his name on the draft list. If the NCAA did something like this, I'm pretty sure that they would not take away college eligibility just for putting one's name on the list. As I understand the baseball draft system, the names go on the list automatically at a certain age. Many kids drafted early choose other paths without losing college eligibility. That works for me. Why not try it for all team sports?

    There was, several years ago, a young high school baseball player who managed to hide from MLB when he was first eligible for the draft. Instead he and his dad gamed the system, he was not drafted, and started out his career as a free agent. He was able to go with the highest bidder, and I believe he had a pretty good career. There would be mayhem if that was the norm, and the Yankees would be the top team in every sport. The draft is essential for fair competition, so some controls are necessary. Maybe a national sports commissioner to set reasonable rules for all levels of all sports would work, or not.
    I don't disagree with you on the MLB model. I just don't believe the NBA will go there. The NCAA has been somewhat silent on this issue. I agree with you that any action taken should apply to all sports. Tough issue. But, I believe the NCAA can do something to that will better demonstrate that kids going to college are student-athletes (note that student always comes first). Thanks for your perspectives on this, Jarhead.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verga3 View Post
    I don't disagree with you on the MLB model. I just don't believe the NBA will go there. The NCAA has been somewhat silent on this issue. I agree with you that any action taken should apply to all sports. Tough issue. But, I believe the NCAA can do something to that will better demonstrate that kids going to college are student-athletes (note that student always comes first). Thanks for your perspectives on this, Jarhead.
    Looks like the leadership needs to take the lead, doesn't it?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    Looks like the leadership needs to take the lead, doesn't it?
    Well put.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    I like the idea of this thread, even if it is just a distant dream at this point. Here's a three-part plan:

    1) I agree that the NBA should let players go pro out of high school.

    2) For its part, the NCAA should let any kid who isn't drafted out of high school come to college - if, that is, they have the intention of getting an education and are willing to commit to college for 3+ years to get their degree. I think the concept that kids who declare for the draft are somehow "professionals" is just plain silly in light of the charred landscape of contemporary college basketball.

    3) If not 1) or 2), the NBDA and Europe are always available.

    To me this would capture everyone's best interests - the players, the colleges, and the fans. I guess it's really the same system as baseball has... Hmmm, I could probably have just gone with, "we should just do what baseball does". Sorry for the time sink.
    You almost have it right, now if only every college would hold to a higher standard where all players were students first and athletes second there would be no need to worry about the NBA and it's draft. Those decisions are often made by the athlete and his family long before high school, much less college age and nothing will change that. Let those athletes go to work as that is what they are trained to do. I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm alone when I say that college basketball should not be a development league for the NBA!

  17. #57
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    May 2010
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    Triad, NC

    Lightbulb

    If a kid isn't interested in an education, they can go straight to the Associate, D-League or overseas.
    If they want to go to college they should be required to stay 3 years and have some accountability for their grades/attendance to class.

    The NBA is using college as a free D-League, so maybe the NBA requires guys to play in the D-League for a year before being drafted??? This allows them the year to play at a much higher level than high school while being evaluated and still get paid a considerable amount.

    Seems like a win-win for everyone except Kentucky.

  18. #58
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    Arlington, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePublisher View Post
    If a kid isn't interested in an education, they can go straight to the Associate, D-League or overseas.
    If they want to go to college they should be required to stay 3 years and have some accountability for their grades/attendance to class.

    The NBA is using college as a free D-League, so maybe the NBA requires guys to play in the D-League for a year before being drafted??? This allows them the year to play at a much higher level than high school while being evaluated and still get paid a considerable amount.

    Seems like a win-win for everyone except Kentucky.
    And the NBA. Why would they give up having a year of free marketing and evaluation in order to have to pay more for a minor league? Yes, I'm sure D-League revenue would go up, but I'd be shocked if it would be profitable for the league, especially after how many of the owners claimed poverty in last summer's lockout. One reason college basketball makes so much money has a lot to do with the institutional association, something that the D-League couldn't develop no matter how much money owners sunk into it. If the NBA had to develop the D-League into true minor league, I'm sure it could happen, but the league is a for profit entity and right now, it just doesn't seem like it would make sense from a business standpoint to spend resources solving a perceived problem with the NCAA. I want to say David Stern said something along those lines in an interview a few weeks ago, but I'm not positive.

  19. #59
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePublisher View Post
    If a kid isn't interested in an education, they can go straight to the Associate, D-League or overseas.
    You mean like this kid? http://www.zagsblog.com/2012/04/30/n...rd/#more-72539

    This California big man couldn't qualify at St. John's, still trying to "get his academics together" after trying it at the Phelps School in Malvern, PA for about a second and a half. Now he's interested in schools all over the map, from Rhode Island to New Mexico to DePaul to Nevada, but in the meantime, while he undoubtedly is mulling the course curricula of those and other institutions, he's with Buckets Academy, back in California. Buckets Academy, folks.

    All I know is what I read, but kids like this sure don't seem like they belong in four year universities.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukeofcalabash View Post
    You almost have it right, now if only every college would hold to a higher standard where all players were students first and athletes second there would be no need to worry about the NBA and it's draft. Those decisions are often made by the athlete and his family long before high school, much less college age and nothing will change that. Let those athletes go to work as that is what they are trained to do. I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm alone when I say that college basketball should not be a development league for the NBA!
    A little bit earlier in this thread some of us discussed an idea that might just kick off a move to force the NBA into a smart action, expand it's D league into a true minor league along the lines of baseball and hockey. The idea would have the NCAA establish what could be called scholarship contracts (with a stipend) that would run for at least three years with an option for a fourth year. This would replace the current practice of one year scholarships. It very well could solve the whole issue. High school athletes would initially face just two choices, go to college, or go pro. Wait for the draft and/or the recruiters to call. Next step for the athlete -- make the decision. Go pro, or go to college. Choose going pro, and the athlete can never be a student athlete. That's okay. Choose college, and three (or four) years later check out going pro.
    Ta da.

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