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  1. #21
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    Sep 2008
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    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    While I don't necessarily think it's fair, you probably have to consider Greg Oden a bust.
    Perhaps, but the person who framed the question specifically said he didn't want to count Oden as a bust for the purposes of his question.

  2. #22
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    While I don't necessarily think it's fair, you probably have to consider Greg Oden a bust.
    Don't want to get off topic, but be careful when labeling guys as busts who had their careers cut short early by serious injuries.

    Jason Williams?

    Bobby Hurley?

    Not busts in my book. Just got injured and never had a fair chance to improve and max out their talent. Same as Oden, really.

  3. #23
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    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    While I don't necessarily think it's fair, you probably have to consider Greg Oden a bust.
    I'd consider Oden a tragedy more than a bust.

    I really wish the NBA would spruce up the NBDL. They should recruit the young Euro kids over to play and make it an option for anyone who does not want to spend two years in college. Pay the kids $50k or so to make it tempting for those who really could not manage college, but not so tempting that many see it as more enticing than college.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    make ALL players spend their first year in the development league......just let that soak in.....ALL players must spend their first year in the NBDL....


    imagine what we would have had over the past 5 years....letting them play for 30k, getting used to travel, more games, and no classes instead of having to go to an institute of higher learning when they don't want to...

    the nba gets a MUCH better evaluation, the D-league becomes a very hot ticket, and the kids get to play whenever they are able to make the cut on a d-team...
    This is what I would like. Or at least some universe where the D-League is a viable alternative to college. If kids were leaving early to go play D-League ball, it would be a different universe.

    That, or draft them before they go to college, like in baseball. The system is so busted it's laughable.

  5. #25
    Two and done is the way to go in my opinion... This might result in some of the top flight talent opting for the NBADL or Europe right out of high school but I don't think it will become a heavy trend.

  6. #26
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichabod Drain View Post
    I agree it would be good for the players, but the NBA might put in some rule to prevent that (I dont know how specifically), because that just messes with their system so much. Imagine if ten kids go in the second round then they decide they want to go to college for a year to try and make it to the first round. Well that's ten draftees that just left the teams that drafted them hanging. I doubt that would sit well with the NBA. And does this go for just kids coming out of high school, or can anyone test it out see how high they get drafted then decide to take it or leave it. That would be pretty ridiculous.
    The NBA is obviously not making decisions in consideration of what's best for college basketball. Nor is it obligated to. But by the same token the NCAA shouldn't be making ITS decisions then in consideration of what's best for the NBA. Allowing kids to return to school messes with your draft? Doesn't sit well with you? Sorry. Not our problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Maybe best of all, it would be a barginning chip the NCAA could use against the NBA. As much as colleges would have giving the kids that much freedom, the NBA would REALLY hate giving the draftees that much bargining power. Right now, there is nothing the NCAA can do to make the NBA accomodate them. Giving kids the freedom to go through the draft and come back might get the owners moving to negotiate a longer wait with the player's association. Of course, they might not -- one response could be to simply give NBA teams perpetual rights to their draftees (instead of the current one-year rights).
    I don't think the players association would ever agree to that. Do you?

  7. #27
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I like your idea but I don't think the D leaugue becomes a hot ticket. Every year you may have 1 or two players out of HS that are thought to be future superstars but still mostly kids aren't ready for the NBA. If HS players were allowed to go immediatley to the development league how many of this years crop would bring you out to a minor league game? I would say very few who would not have gone anyway. But like I said I like the idea for thesake of the college game.
    i'm not talking about just high school players....i'm saying ALL players........that means Kyrie would be in the Dleague for a season...

    before you just pooh-pooh it cause last years lottery class would be in the d-league, just imgaine what the dleague would be with all those rookies in it.....
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  8. #28

    NBA/College

    Also, don't forget that this really has nothing to do with the NCAA. It's an NBA rule, and it works great for them - mostly from a marketing standpoint. Do you realize how much Austin Rivers improved his branding at Duke? Do you think the fans of whatever franchise aren't going to be that much more interested in him because of his year with our team?

    The only way the rule will change is if it makes more sense for the NBA. This means either more money or better talent evaluation so there are fewer "flops."

    Keep this in mind when building scenarios. Otherwise, it's just chatter.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by moonpie23 View Post
    i'm not talking about just high school players....i'm saying ALL players........that means Kyrie would be in the Dleague for a season...

    before you just pooh-pooh it cause last years lottery class would be in the d-league, just imgaine what the dleague would be with all those rookies in it.....
    Well yeah I would be more likely to go see D League teams with former Dukies on the roster. Would Cleveland want to risk injury to Kyrie in the D league? It doesn't seem fair to Kyrie to wait a year to make the big bucks while risking another injury but as others have said it's not really about the kids or the college game. I guess that I would be in favor of your plan.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Perhaps, but the person who framed the question specifically said he didn't want to count Oden as a bust for the purposes of his question.
    My bad. I just saw your post.

  11. #31
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    Mar 2008
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    raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    Well yeah I would be more likely to go see D League teams with former Dukies on the roster. Would Cleveland want to risk injury to Kyrie in the D league? It doesn't seem fair to Kyrie to wait a year to make the big bucks while risking another injury but as others have said it's not really about the kids or the college game. I guess that I would be in favor of your plan.
    Cleveland wouldn't "own" kyrie yet. teams would draft from the d league.
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Don't want to get off topic, but be careful when labeling guys as busts who had their careers cut short early by serious injuries.

    Jason Williams?

    Bobby Hurley?

    Not busts in my book. Just got injured and never had a fair chance to improve and max out their talent. Same as Oden, really.
    Williams and Hurley were off court injuries.

    Oden is a different case. There were numerous red flags before he was drafted. Additionally, bust I think depends on your perspective. For the trailblazers, oden was a bust. Why he did not reach his potential is irrelevant.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    Williams and Hurley were off court injuries.

    Oden is a different case. There were numerous red flags before he was drafted. Additionally, bust I think depends on your perspective. For the trailblazers, oden was a bust. Why he did not reach his potential is irrelevant.
    My thinking was that an injury bust happens with or without a year in college first so it isn't relevant to the discussion. Oden did play a year of college so his case doesn't strengthen the argument that the NBA benefits significantly by seeing the elite HS prospect for one year in school. I think others have shown that the lottery picks straight out of HS were more apt to bust than after one year in school so I agree that my idea probably doesn't solve the issue sufficiently from the NBA's point of view. I like the one year developement league idea too but being a NCAA stud for a year probably still increases a players maketing profile more than a year in the D league so maybe that isn't a solution either. I hope someone finds a solution because one and done is bad for college ball IMO and I hate that the UK championship has sort of changed the perception to be more along the lines that you must have these players to win now and also if a player doesn't go out after a year his NBA stock is diminished.

  14. #34
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    Feb 2007
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    Southern Pines, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    This is what I would like. Or at least some universe where the D-League is a viable alternative to college. If kids were leaving early to go play D-League ball, it would be a different universe.

    That, or draft them before they go to college, like in baseball. The system is so busted it's laughable.
    That's the ticket. The problem we have in basketball seems to be totally absent in baseball, and perhaps hockey. Football is a bit different, but the early departures are mostly after the third year because of the age restrictions, as I understand it. Rest assured that no reasonable changes are going to happen in the foreseeable future.

    I think the NCAA could bring about change, though. My idea is that the NCAA should set up a system of three year contract scholarships with an option for a fourth year, and a fair stipend. That would force the hand of the pro leagues calling for draft rules that would, in effect, cause all pro leagues to go the way of baseball, and establish real minor leagues.

    I'd also push the leagues toward changing the draft rules so that the leagues determine the draft eligibility list each year from high school, college, the AAU, and so on. The rules should be along the lines of baseball, but the NCAA would have to set its own rules to accommodate those of the pro leagues.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Was in Boston one winter, maybe 2000, 2001, walked into a NiKe store and see two long, skinny giants looking at sneakers. I didn't recognize them, until I saw Derrick McKey babysitting. Yeap, you heard me, sneakers.

    I think that there is another reason Stern won't change the rule. Save money on baby sitters and have a more mature individual, hopefully one who is more likely to give the NBA a better image and who is also less likely to blow up, lose all the dough thrown at them, and make even someone like Mikie look like a fool.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Cabbagetown, Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Was in Boston one winter, maybe 2000, 2001, walked into a NiKe store and see two long, skinny giants looking at sneakers. I didn't recognize them, until I saw Derrick McKey babysitting. Yeap, you heard me, sneakers.

    I think that there is another reason Stern won't change the rule. Save money on baby sitters and have a more mature individual, hopefully one who is more likely to give the NBA a better image and who is also less likely to blow up, lose all the dough thrown at them, and make even someone like Mikie look like a fool.
    I don't understand this story. Who were the giants? What is the significance of the sneakers?

  17. #37
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    Feb 2009
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    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    That's the ticket. The problem we have in basketball seems to be totally absent in baseball, and perhaps hockey. Football is a bit different, but the early departures are mostly after the third year because of the age restrictions, as I understand it. Rest assured that no reasonable changes are going to happen in the foreseeable future.

    I think the NCAA could bring about change, though. My idea is that the NCAA should set up a system of three year contract scholarships with an option for a fourth year, and a fair stipend. That would force the hand of the pro leagues calling for draft rules that would, in effect, cause all pro leagues to go the way of baseball, and establish real minor leagues.

    I'd also push the leagues toward changing the draft rules so that the leagues determine the draft eligibility list each year from high school, college, the AAU, and so on. The rules should be along the lines of baseball, but the NCAA would have to set its own rules to accommodate those of the pro leagues.
    I think this is a reasonable approach in theory, but that certain differences between the basketball and baseball markets make a baseball draft model, and comparable basketball minor league system less likely to materialize.

    Unlike in baseball, where college games are sparsely attended, generate little or no revenue, and where the college game has never really featured top talent, basketball was born as a scholastic enterprise (invented by a gym teacher!), and the whole history of the sport runs through the college game. There are entranched interests from the schools themselves, to the huge alumni fanbases, to the televsion interests that broadcast and promote the games to keep college basketball as the primary "minor league." And as Duke fans, I think that's probably what we all want (or at least that's what I want)-- i.e., to keep talent in the college game.

    Understanding that there are always guys for whom college is not particularly attractive, the NBA has to have some kind of minor league to take advantage of players who leave college too soon or who can't or don't wish to play in an academic environment. But I think we'll continue to see some form of the college-Europe-D-league "minor league" system for the NBA for the primary reason that people love NCAA basketball and want to maintain the conditions where it is the major repository for maturing elite basketball talent.

    The thing I have never understood about the NBAPA is why they feel so strongly about keeping the age limit so low, when the rule is so fundamentaly opposed to the players' own financial interests. Every new lottery pick is a veteran without a job. Seems like they would want to move the age up to 20 (or 2 years post-high school) which would be enough of a win-win to finally resolve this issue. But I always hear that NBA guys (or the ones with clout in the players' association) feel this issue viscerally as one of freedom to work. I guess I get that, but I would think lots of veterans would have equally visceral feelings about not ceding their hard-earned dream jobs to 19 year-olds with "upside."

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Monmouth77 View Post
    I think this is a reasonable approach in theory, but that certain differences between the basketball and baseball markets make a baseball draft model, and comparable basketball minor league system less likely to materialize.

    Unlike in baseball, where college games are sparsely attended, generate little or no revenue, and where the college game has never really featured top talent, basketball was born as a scholastic enterprise (invented by a gym teacher!), and the whole history of the sport runs through the college game. There are entranched interests from the schools themselves, to the huge alumni fanbases, to the televsion interests that broadcast and promote the games to keep college basketball as the primary "minor league." And as Duke fans, I think that's probably what we all want (or at least that's what I want)-- i.e., to keep talent in the college game.

    Understanding that there are always guys for whom college is not particularly attractive, the NBA has to have some kind of minor league to take advantage of players who leave college too soon or who can't or don't wish to play in an academic environment. But I think we'll continue to see some form of the college-Europe-D-league "minor league" system for the NBA for the primary reason that people love NCAA basketball and want to maintain the conditions where it is the major repository for maturing elite basketball talent.

    The thing I have never understood about the NBAPA is why they feel so strongly about keeping the age limit so low, when the rule is so fundamentaly opposed to the players' own financial interests. Every new lottery pick is a veteran without a job. Seems like they would want to move the age up to 20 (or 2 years post-high school) which would be enough of a win-win to finally resolve this issue. But I always hear that NBA guys (or the ones with clout in the players' association) feel this issue viscerally as one of freedom to work. I guess I get that, but I would think lots of veterans would have equally visceral feelings about not ceding their hard-earned dream jobs to 19 year-olds with "upside."
    I don't understand the logic from the Players Association point of view either but I'm not really in favor of increasing the number of non-student pro-level prospects in college. I want the best student athletes at Duke but it doesn't bother me if Kobe, LeBron and Bazz or even AR and Kyrie never play college ball if they are good enough and choose to go pro out of HS. In other words I don't think the problem with One and is that these top level recruits only play one year and leave rather I think the problem lies more in the fact that they ever enroll in college at all. But I guess with the NBA's interest in mind, Two and Through or Three and Free is a more likely outcome.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I don't understand the logic from the Players Association point of view either but I'm not really in favor of increasing the number of non-student pro-level prospects in college. I want the best student athletes at Duke but it doesn't bother me if Kobe, LeBron and Bazz or even AR and Kyrie never play college ball if they are good enough and choose to go pro out of HS. In other words I don't think the problem with One and is that these top level recruits only play one year and leave rather I think the problem lies more in the fact that they ever enroll in college at all. But I guess with the NBA's interest in mind, Two and Through or Three and Free is a more likely outcome.
    I don't disagree with this, necessarily. And I am not totally against going back to the 18 year old age limit. My point is a little different.

    Stipulating that the 19-year-old age limit is the rule (as it is), I would rather muddle through with the current amalgam of "minor league" options, which range from college, to playing abroad (see Jennings, Brandon), to heading straight to the present-day D-League (not common) than try to set the conditions for a baseball-type minor league that might siphon off more than just future hall-of-famers like KG, LeBron, and Kobe, but could instead (as in baseball) professionalize most of the top talent at age 18.

    In other words I don't want to see a system that operates to really cut the top talent layer out of the college game and turn the whole NCAA into the Missouri Valley Conference.

    But my larger point was that it is not likely to happen because of the love for NCAA basketball and the history and place of the college game in the sport.

    I do think, however, that we ought to lift some of the pretenses we have about "student athletes," even at a place like Duke. I knew engineering students on campus that weren't great writers, and prioritized their majors, but benefited from required courses in the humanities. Not sure why basketball players cannot benefit from (even if they don't excel at) the liberal arts education that sits in the background of their -- let's be honest -- primary pursuit. Why is a Duke basketball player different from a film student at Southern Cal who wants to make it in Hollywood? Or the software engineering student at Stanford who wants to create something and leave school as soon as possible to join a Silicon Valley start-up?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Monmouth77 View Post
    I do think, however, that we ought to lift some of the pretenses we have about "student athletes," even at a place like Duke. I knew engineering students on campus that weren't great writers, and prioritized their majors, but benefited from required courses in the humanities. Not sure why basketball players cannot benefit from (even if they don't excel at) the liberal arts education that sits in the background of their -- let's be honest -- primary pursuit. Why is a Duke basketball player different from a film student at Southern Cal who wants to make it in Hollywood? Or the software engineering student at Stanford who wants to create something and leave school as soon as possible to join a Silicon Valley start-up?
    I agree but film students and software engineering students are expected to qualify and make minimal advancements toward a degree to remain enrolled and no one is suggesting that we pay them for performing in plays and completing course work. In fact no one ever speaks of a "pretense" regarding student actors or student engineers. Giving up the "pretense" usually comes just ahead of suggesting that players should be paid which I'm opposed to but that is an entirely different discussion for another thread. I'm in favor of treating athletes exactly the same as the other students and at the point academics become a "pretense" it is time to go pro.

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