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  1. #1
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    Jan 2008
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    Artest-Harden confrontation

    For anyone who may have missed it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjCGlsoRMAo

    And then his contrition:
    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7855727

    It is one thing to go all out during a play but I think this transcends "passionate play". This is violence simply for the sake of violence. I doubt MWP intended to take out Harden. I don't think he is smart enough to actually consider the consequences before he acted. I think he threw that elbow without thought or regard, in a moment of adreline fueled fever. Something a professional, world class athlete should never do.

    These are the biggest, strongest, fastest, most agile men on the planet. Part of their job, for which they are richly rewarded, is control of all that power. MWP failed. And he should pay. And more than seven games.

    Given his history, which he is failing to rewrite, I think he deserves a year off to cool his jets and re-align his "passions".

    Then again, I wonder if this isn't the way "The League" and the game in general is going. Maybe we want to erect side boards and cages and let the men go at each other like the NHL. Is that the direction of the game? I mean, even at Duke, when Hansboro tried to bust Gerald's wrist with his brow, we see increased and more violent physicality.

    So, do y'all think MWP's hit was vicious and unwarranted? Do you think the suspension was on target, too light, too harsh? And, is this just where the game is heading?
    If being a fan were logical, we'd all be Duke fans but some of us were born to a different blue.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by KenTankerous View Post
    For anyone who may have missed it:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjCGlsoRMAo

    And then his contrition:
    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7855727

    It is one thing to go all out during a play but I think this transcends "passionate play". This is violence simply for the sake of violence. I doubt MWP intended to take out Harden. I don't think he is smart enough to actually consider the consequences before he acted. I think he threw that elbow without thought or regard, in a moment of adreline fueled fever. Something a professional, world class athlete should never do.

    These are the biggest, strongest, fastest, most agile men on the planet. Part of their job, for which they are richly rewarded, is control of all that power. MWP failed. And he should pay. And more than seven games.

    Given his history, which he is failing to rewrite, I think he deserves a year off to cool his jets and re-align his "passions".

    Then again, I wonder if this isn't the way "The League" and the game in general is going. Maybe we want to erect side boards and cages and let the men go at each other like the NHL. Is that the direction of the game? I mean, even at Duke, when Hansboro tried to bust Gerald's wrist with his brow, we see increased and more violent physicality.

    So, do y'all think MWP's hit was vicious and unwarranted? Do you think the suspension was on target, too light, too harsh? And, is this just where the game is heading?
    Vicious? Yes. Unwarranted? Of course. Considering the act itself, plus the fact that this guy has been suspended ten times -- TEN! - since 2003, the punishment was way too light. If I was the Commissioner, I would've suspended him for the entirety of the playoffs. See ya next year. Done.

  3. #3

    Ugh

    The clip is a summary of why I hate the NBA. The best "excuse" is that he was simply beating his chest and gesticulating wildly to celebrate his dunk, and Harden was just in the way. That's a crap excuse. I guess I'm old school, but why not wait until the game is over and then see if there's anything worth celebrating? Or why not get back on defense.

    The one-on-one me-first mentality of the NBA has gone from Jordan (who was an excellent one-on-one scorer, but also played wonderful defense and prided himself on WINNING above all) down through Starbury, AI, 'Melo, etc.

    I didn't like "woofing" when Vince Carter did it, and I admit that I would blush when JJ would yap after knocking down threes.

    This particular instance is uncalled for and should be an embarrassment to the league.

  4. #4
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    Dec 2009
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Vicious? Yes. Unwarranted? Of course. Considering the act itself, plus the fact that this guy has been suspended ten times -- TEN! - since 2003, the punishment was way too light. If I was the Commissioner, I would've suspended him for the entirety of the playoffs. See ya next year. Done.
    Does anybody else see the parallels between Artest and Lennie Small? (From Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men)

    I don't mean that in an insulting way at all, just noting the similarities between two characters (and Metta World Peace is certainly, above all else, a character). Both were born with incredible physical gifts, but not the mental self-control necessary to responsibly take advantage of those gifts. It is a shame, really. Not that acknowledging this exonerates him in any way -- it doesn't. He is responsible for his actions as a fully functioning adult in society. But still, he seems to be aware of his problems yet simply unable to curtail them. I always think he is going to finally pull it together, and then... something like this happens.

    I guess all I can say is, "Fool me nine times, shame on you. Fool me ten times..."
    "With seven national titles and 20 Final Fours in the 64-team NCAA Tournament era, Duke and UNC have had more playoff success than any other CONFERENCE." - Al Featherston

  5. #5
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    Feb 2007
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    Dillon, Colorado
    We gave Peace a chance.
    Sometimes I mistake this for a universe that cares. -- xkcd #625

  6. #6
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    Inman, SC & Melbourne Beach, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    We gave Peace a chance.
    Right, just like Neville Chamberlain. Didn't work out all that well then, either.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Yes it was vicious and unwarranted. OFCOURSE he's going to say it was not intentional, what else would he say? There was no ball in play, unless he is completely blind and has no feeling on his left side, he knew Harden was right there.

    No this is not the direction the league is going, far from it. If you watched the NBA in the mid-nineties it was far more physical than it is today and the game suffered. Back in the 70's brawls were somewhat of a regularity. Tomjanovich can speak to that.

    Interesting that two of the more infamous physical altercations of the past few years have involved one guy.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  8. #8
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    The clip is a summary of why I hate the NBA. The best "excuse" is that he was simply beating his chest and gesticulating wildly to celebrate his dunk, and Harden was just in the way. That's a crap excuse. I guess I'm old school, but why not wait until the game is over and then see if there's anything worth celebrating? Or why not get back on defense.

    The one-on-one me-first mentality of the NBA has gone from Jordan (who was an excellent one-on-one scorer, but also played wonderful defense and prided himself on WINNING above all) down through Starbury, AI, 'Melo, etc.

    I didn't like "woofing" when Vince Carter did it, and I admit that I would blush when JJ would yap after knocking down threes.

    This particular instance is uncalled for and should be an embarrassment to the league.
    None of your examples are exclusive to the NBA. If these are reasons why you despise the NBA then how do you feel watching college ball? Artest did play at St Johns.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Triad, NC
    I think another name change is in order, to something more acurate. Metta World Peace to maybe, Violent Aggressive Elbower? Or he could just go back to ol' faithful, Ron Artest.
    7 games is a joke of a suspension. They want him back for the Lakers-Thunder series that we'll likely see because it will bringing a ton of viewers just for the drama they'll be able to play it up with.

  10. #10
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    Feb 2007
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    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePublisher View Post
    7 games is a joke of a suspension.
    This came up last year when Andrew Bynum took a cheap shot on JJ Barea as the Lakers were being summarily dismissed from the playoffs by Dallas (Bynum got 5 games).

    7 games is a pretty significant suspension in the scope of the NBA's history. It now takes the lead as the longest suspension for on-court conduct since the Denver-NY fight in 2006. It's more games than Anthony Johnson got for punching a fan during the Malice at the Palace. I think 7 games is pretty much right on the money considering the conduct and the person involved, and the NBA's record concerning suspensions.
    Just be you. You is enough. - K, 4/5/10, 0:13.8 to play, 60-59 Duke.

    You're all jealous hypocrites. - Titus on Laettner

    You see those guys? Animals. They're animals. - SIU Coach Chris Lowery, on Duke

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    This came up last year when Andrew Bynum took a cheap shot on JJ Barea as the Lakers were being summarily dismissed from the playoffs by Dallas (Bynum got 5 games).

    7 games is a pretty significant suspension in the scope of the NBA's history. It now takes the lead as the longest suspension for on-court conduct since the Denver-NY fight in 2006. It's more games than Anthony Johnson got for punching a fan during the Malice at the Palace. I think 7 games is pretty much right on the money considering the conduct and the person involved, and the NBA's record concerning suspensions.
    I want to echo this post. Elbows happen all the time in the NBA. Obviously this one was different because of who threw it and exactly where it hit. But I think the NBA gave an appropriate response. It sucks for Harden, but all indications point to him being able to fully recover and play a normal rotation in the playoffs.

    The suspension causes immense difficulty for the Lakers, who have a weak bench (weaker now) and I think they will struggle, if they make it past the Nuggets at all. It also takes Artest completely out of his game right as he was starting to play well.

    The NBA did their due dilligence, they talked to Harden, the Thunder organization, the Lakers, and MWP before making their decision. And for the OP who suggests this is an NBA trend it is actually the complete opposite. The NBA has come down HARD on flagrants and fights recently, which in addition to stricter calls on defense is making the league into the least physical basketball that we have seen in two decades.

    Now, if Harden is clearly "off" in the playoffs then maybe the league reviews its policies and we can rehash this again.

  12. #12
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    Feb 2007
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    Austin, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by pfrduke View Post
    This came up last year when Andrew Bynum took a cheap shot on JJ Barea as the Lakers were being summarily dismissed from the playoffs by Dallas (Bynum got 5 games).

    7 games is a pretty significant suspension in the scope of the NBA's history. It now takes the lead as the longest suspension for on-court conduct since the Denver-NY fight in 2006. It's more games than Anthony Johnson got for punching a fan during the Malice at the Palace. I think 7 games is pretty much right on the money considering the conduct and the person involved, and the NBA's record concerning suspensions.
    I generally agree with this, but I probably would have said rest of regular season and first round, however many games that is. That's effectively what will be happening, but I think suspending him through the first round would have been fair.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    None of your examples are exclusive to the NBA. If these are reasons why you despise the NBA then how do you feel watching college ball? Artest did play at St Johns.
    They aren't exclusive to the NBA, no. But the college kids grow up watching their heroes in the NBA and emulate them. And yes, college is trending that way more now, but I don't have to like it.

    You've seen K jump down a player's throat for being demonstrative after a big play - Dre this season, Maggette, Ricky Price, Henderson from time to time... It's not "Duke basketball." You ever see an NBA player get chastised for it?

    College basketball used to be more about programs and coaches than about players. Contrary to logic, the one-and-dones seem to be changing this. I guess because with these one-shot-wonders, it's so clear that the player is the commodity and is choosing the most advantageous stage for his craft.

    You can't tell me that this sort of thing isn't much more pervasive in NBA ball than college.

  14. #14
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    Feb 2009
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    Nashville
    Fair or not, I think the situation is different than it would have been if a 6'2 PG had done the elbowing. Artest is one of the most spastic and unpredictable players in the NBA, but he's also one of the strongest and most powerful; when he loses control, he's really dangerous. That was a shot that would have ended a heavyweight MMA fight.

    At some point, it's just not safe for him to be on the court, whether he's being intentionally malicious or not.

  15. #15
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    They aren't exclusive to the NBA, no. But the college kids grow up watching their heroes in the NBA and emulate them. And yes, college is trending that way more now, but I don't have to like it.

    You've seen K jump down a player's throat for being demonstrative after a big play - Dre this season, Maggette, Ricky Price, Henderson from time to time... It's not "Duke basketball." You ever see an NBA player get chastised for it?

    College basketball used to be more about programs and coaches than about players. Contrary to logic, the one-and-dones seem to be changing this. I guess because with these one-shot-wonders, it's so clear that the player is the commodity and is choosing the most advantageous stage for his craft.

    You can't tell me that this sort of thing isn't much more pervasive in NBA ball than college.
    Xavier/Cinci?

    My point really is, if you're using this as a reason to dislike the NBA, it's the wrong reason. In fact the league is far more finesse and team oriented than the previous decade. The 2011 NBA champion Dallas Mavericks are an excellent example.

    If the NBA is so crumby, why does an excellent basketball mind like K adore it so much? Dislike the league all you want, but the reason you stated is not a legit reason.

  16. #16
    Actually, I have a whole slew of reasons. And I stand behind the ones that I mentioned earlier - Xavier/Cincy had nothing to do with one-on-one play and self-aggrandizing behavior.

    You want another reason? The way the teams slog through the regular season. Turn on an NBA game in December and look at how the teams are trotting up the court at half-speed and feigning defense. They conserve their health and energy for the playoffs. How's the crowd at a Memphis/Bucks game in early January?

    Now, turn on Duke/Wisconsin in November or Duke/Georgetown in January. The crowd is amped, players are diving on the floor, coaches are yelling.

    Why would I watch half-assed basketball, even if it is the world's best athletes? I'd rather watch faux-amateurs playing their hearts out in a rowdy stadium.

    Anyway, I'm not asking you to stop watching the NBA. I'm just saying that the "me first" attitude of the NBA as exemplified by Ron "World Peace" Artest is something about the NBA that I dislike.

  17. #17
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Newton View Post
    Fair or not, I think the situation is different than it would have been if a 6'2 PG had done the elbowing. Artest is one of the most spastic and unpredictable players in the NBA, but he's also one of the strongest and most powerful; when he loses control, he's really dangerous. That was a shot that would have ended a heavyweight MMA fight.

    At some point, it's just not safe for him to be on the court, whether he's being intentionally malicious or not.
    I agree. I would venture to say this is not the last incident involving mwp. The guy just seems unhinged </understatement>.

  18. #18
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post


    Now, turn on Duke/Wisconsin in November or Duke/Georgetown in January. The crowd is amped, players are diving on the floor, coaches are yelling.
    Interesting you cited 2 games where Duke got their butts kicked. Why would I want to go back and watch those?

    So I guess the MSG crowd is quiet and lazy?

    I still don't agree with your points but oh well. Turn on a Spurs game and you'll see why. There are just as many ugly college games in proportion to ugly, boring nba games.

  19. #19
    I think you misunderstand my point. I don't mean "boring" basketball. In fact, I very much respect the Spurs and the way they play. I don't like to see players jogging at half-speed. I like team-oriented play with good passing and defense. And yes, it is also a dying commodity in the college game.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    I think you misunderstand my point. I don't mean "boring" basketball. In fact, I very much respect the Spurs and the way they play. I don't like to see players jogging at half-speed. I like team-oriented play with good passing and defense. And yes, it is also a dying commodity in the college game.
    These are just tired cliches thrown out by people who don't watch the NBA. The Spurs for a long time were the physical, semi-dirty team you claim to despise. Bruce Bowen anyone? The Suns-Spurs playoffs?

    You can't speak in such generalizations. For every "bad" NBA game I can show you a "bad" college game. It's the nature of basketball...

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