Gbinije to transfer

[Channing]

Reminds me of the trashing of Zoubek for all his weaknesses. Then in his senior year- Zoubek made all the difference. These kids are not finished products- that can and do get better. No one here ever thought that sophomore Nolan Smith would have matured into the best player in the league when he became a senior. Kids get better.

My comparison was not "what will they become". It was a simple side-by-side comparison today. If you look at Josh's skill set today, and make the assumption that Gbinijie's skill set today isn't sufficient to take time from Josh, then, by definition, you are saying that Josh is a better player (assuming, as Coach K points out, that he doesn't really focus on positions). And, if Josh is the better player, and would not take Josh's time next year, then the loss of Gbinijie is not that significant.

Also, unless something has been kept very quiet, I don't think that Josh has been suffering crippling foot problems for the past two years.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

My comparison was not "what will they become". It was a simple side-by-side comparison today. If you look at Josh's skill set today, and make the assumption that Gbinijie's skill set today isn't sufficient to take time from Josh, then, by definition, you are saying that Josh is a better player (assuming, as Coach K points out, that he doesn't really focus on positions). And, if Josh is the better player, and would not take Josh's time next year, then the loss of Gbinijie is not that significant.
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Also, unless something has been kept very quiet, I don't think that Josh has been suffering crippling foot problems for the past two years.

It's going to be interesting to see how are bench shakes out. I wasn't expecting Gbinige or Hairston to start this year but I was wondering if we would still do a 3 guard lineup or more of a traditional lineup with Gbinije or Murphy. I am thinking Coach K is leaning towards a 3 guard lineup. If we were going to a traditional lineup, I think Coach K would have asked him to stay and contend for a starting job with Murphy. I'm thinking were going to see a lineup of Cook, Curry, Sulaimon with Dawkins, Thornton, and Murphy being the firsts off the bench. That would definitely put him further down the ladder.
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[xblade]

It is pretty rare for a freshman to play major minutes at Duke unless said freshman was a top-10/15 prospect in his class. It really only happens when there is a complete absence of players at his possession.

It is pretty rare for a freshman to play major minutes anywhere, but especially at top schools, unless said freshman was a top-10/15 prospect in his class. It's not just a Duke thing.

It's pretty funny. These guys come in as freshmen, and so many fans believe they're the awesomest players and should get all the playing time...until they become sophomores, lol. Then apparently, they're no good any more and their playing time should go to the next class of freshmen.

[xblade]

Airowe tweeted about this yesterday. Luke Winn is the guy who says if a player transfers high schools more than twice than he will likely transfer in college. Michael went to 3 high schools.

From what I've heard, this will be his 6th school in 6 years.

[ArtVandelay]

Having Alex and Andre as the two options at '3' is a pretty good situation really. Not many rosters have that kind of 2 man punch at the 3 spot around the country. We've all heard K's accolades for Alex and the Singler comparisons he has elicited. He has also put on strength and muscle and now knows the system. Furthermore I am definitely not in the 'is what it is' camp with Andre.

I submit that at each level of hoops, from grade school to high school, to college, to the pro's players bring physical talent and basketball IQ. Physical talent, I would argue, is much harder to improve upon than basketball IQ, but basketball IQ can compensate for physical limitations to a point. Paulus had a high b-ball IQ, but hit his limit based on his physical talent in college. Kendall Marshall has a very high basketball IQ which carried him through college, but I suspect his physical talent will limit him in the pro's (it was good he left early when his value was high). Andre has the physical talent, and he still has a chance to develop his b-ball IQ. I don't believe we have seen the best of AD yet.

I agree that Dre and Murphy is hardly bubkus. And I hope you're right about Dre improving before next year. I think he is very talented (albeit streaky as hell) at shooting 3s, but doesn't have the handle to have much more of an offensive repertoire even though he has fairly explosive leaping ability. Let's hope he works on that over the summer. He has improved a lot on D, but I don't really see him as the solution as a wing defender, partially due to his height. I know I shouldn't give up on him, but with the way he tends to disappear at times, I'll just say I'm not counting on Dre.

I admit I don't know whether Mike G would've been good enough to earn minutes at the 3 next year, but the possibility of a slightly more flexible and athletic lineup took a bit of a hit. We pretty much know what we're getting with next year's team (again, in the absence of further commitments) at this point.

[Chris Randolph]

I haven't read this entire thread as I think it would be a waste of time so I'm sure this may have been said:

Let me say, you never like to see anyone transfer. Especially an athletic/long guy like Mike G. That being said, let us not get too outta control questioning the Duke staff for how they 'handled' Mike G's minutes this past season. I'm certain the Duke staff knew what they were doing this past season: When you are capable of winning a championship, you don't play a kid more minutes because you hope he doesn't transfer after the season, lets make that clear

The last time we lost our best player early to the NBA and had a promising freshman transfer, we won the whole thing the next season

[DukieInBrasil]

I know technically they play different positions (although Coach K always says we play the 5 best without really defined positions), but if Mike G was not good enough to get minutes over Hairston, this is not a major loss. Hairston may hustle and give 110%, but he also airballs jumpers (and even a dunk!) with shocking regularity, and just isn't a very good defender (be it because of his size, footwork, or anything else).

Actually, i remember Hairston making 15 ft jumpers with "shocking" regularity. He is not the best post player we have, but he is more valuable than your portrayal of Josh would make him seem. I don't really see him cranking out lots of points or rebounds this coming year, as he'll be the 4th (maybe even 5th) option in the post.
Now Miles Plumlee, he blew dunks with shocking regularity.

[Rudy]

I think it only changes the perspective considerably if "earned" is an absolute. I have been following Coach K for about the same amount of time you have but probably not the extent you have. I have always thought that Coach K underutilizes his bench. 10 mpg is only 5% of gametime. If a top 30 recruit in an area of need can't earn 10 mpg something has fallen through the cracks along the way.

I got a chuckle out of the bolded line. That would only be true if the player can play effectively at all 5 positions. Has there been anyone since Magic Johnson or Grant Hill who could do that? (Even Grant may have had a hard time playing #5 in college.) If a player is slotted at one position, the available mpg for him is 40.

Did anyone other than Mike (if even he did) think he would get 10 mpg his first year? Maybe what fell through the cracks was unreasonable expectations.

There are lots of reasons why a kid would want to transfer. Unless and until he or the coaching staff say something about why, we won't know. Most kids who come to Duke are high character kids. I assume he is, too, and I wish him well.

[azzefkram]

Now Miles Plumlee, he blew dunks with shocking regularity.

Don't think so. Miles made 61% of his FG attempts.

[MCFinARL]

It's going to be interesting to see how are bench shakes out. I wasn't expecting Gbinige or Hairston to start this year but I was wondering if we would still do a 3 guard lineup or more of a traditional lineup with Gbinije or Murphy. I am thinking Coach K is leaning towards a 3 guard lineup. If we were going to a traditional lineup, I think Coach K would have asked him to stay and contend for a starting job with Murphy. I'm thinking were going to see a lineup of Cook, Curry, Sulaimon with Dawkins, Thornton, and Murphy being the firsts off the bench. That would definitely put him further down the ladder.
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Don't know what Coach K might have told Gbinije about competing with Murphy for a starting spot, but it is clear from what Gbinije's Dad told the Herald-Sun that Coach K did ask him to stay--or at least encouraged him to stay--and suggested there would be some opportunities (unspecified) next year. I don't think we can conclude much about what kind of lineup Coach K is envisioning for next year based on this transfer.

[ACCBBallFan]

This transfer by Mike is certainly not unique to Duke or how he was handled by coaching staff.

This article is a couple of weeks old so list of transfers is probably above 350 by now

2012 End-of-Year Updated Transfer List: 300-plus and growing ...

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...us-and-growing

Unless one of the tranfers like Rodney Hood or Amile comes to Duke, Alex has no one his size to practice against at WF with the default being Tyler or Sheed or Dre.

So he can't get used to defending a guy his size nor used to being defended by somone his size.

Of the three only Sheed is a versatile offensive player with Tyler being limited and Dre tending to camp out beyond the 3 point line.

To some extent Alex can get that experience when practicing against Ryan or Josh at the PF slot, but then one of them is misplaced at WF with the 5 guards Seth, Quinn, Dre, Tyler and Sheed instead of with the three bigs: the other of Ryan/Josh plus MP2 and MP3.

Having a mid-sized 11th ACC caliber player like Mike Gbinije helps immensely in practice, especially when one guy is nicked with an injury.

Depending on where he transfers, he not only has to sit a year, he may be practicing against lesser talent until he ascends to more PT the next year.

More PT the next season may have happened anyway when Duke loses its four seniors as Alex may have to play PF leaving the WF slot wide open for Mike.

Seems like a good kid. Good luck to him. Next play.

[Dev11]

It's pretty funny. These guys come in as freshmen, and so many fans believe they're the awesomest players and should get all the playing time...until they become sophomores, lol. Then apparently, they're no good any more and their playing time should go to the next class of freshmen.

...and with that, you've just risen above most of the discussion on this board. Congratulations

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I got a chuckle out of the bolded line. That would only be true if the player can play effectively at all 5 positions. Has there been anyone since Magic Johnson or Grant Hill who could do that? (Even Grant may have had a hard time playing #5 in college.) If a player is slotted at one position, the available mpg for him is 40.

Did anyone other than Mike (if even he did) think he would get 10 mpg his first year? Maybe what fell through the cracks was unreasonable expectations.

There are lots of reasons why a kid would want to transfer. Unless and until he or the coaching staff say something about why, we won't know. Most kids who come to Duke are high character kids. I assume he is, too, and I wish him well.

Count me as one who thought he would get 10 minutes a game...especially after Alex announced he would redshirt. It was no secret where our weakness would be, so I absolutely thought he would get a shot at minutes. Didn't seem like it ever took off though.

[tommy]

I agree that Dre and Murphy is hardly bubkus. And I hope you're right about Dre improving before next year. I think he is very talented (albeit streaky as hell) at shooting 3s, but doesn't have the handle to have much more of an offensive repertoire even though he has fairly explosive leaping ability. Let's hope he works on that over the summer. He has improved a lot on D, but I don't really see him as the solution as a wing defender, partially due to his height. I know I shouldn't give up on him, but with the way he tends to disappear at times, I'll just say I'm not counting on Dre.

I admit I don't know whether Mike G would've been good enough to earn minutes at the 3 next year, but the possibility of a slightly more flexible and athletic lineup took a bit of a hit. We pretty much know what we're getting with next year's team (again, in the absence of further commitments) at this point.

You have one of my favorite user names on the board, but I don't agree with you that "we pretty much know what we're getting with next year's team at this point." A quick list of some things we don't know might include:

1. Will Quinn Cook's knee really heal properly?
2. If so, will he be able to play the type of ball-hawking defense and move his feet sufficiently to stay in front of his man that will enable him to take over from Thornton as our primary point guard?
3. Will Thornton improve his ballhandling, shooting, and/or passing, enabling him to actually participate in the offense in a meaningful way and put some pressure on the opposing defense?
4. What will Rasheed Sulaimon bring to the table in terms of ballhandling, shooting, passing, defense, toughness, and contribution to team chemistry?
5. Who will emerge as the leader(s) of the team?
6. Will Seth Curry improve his passing and/or his defense?
7. Will Andre Dawkins add any elements to his game, such as penetrating with the ball, shooting off the dribble, rebounding, or defense?
8. Will Andre gain any consistency in his game?
9. Will he maintain focus and concentration for longer stretches of games?
10. What will Murphy bring to the table in terms of shooting, ballhandling, passing, rebounding, defense, toughness, and contribution to team chemistry?
11. Will Murphy be big and strong enough to play the PF position in Duke's scheme, or will he really belong at the 3?
12. Will Ryan Kelly improve his strength? What about his aggressiveness under the boards?
13. Will Ryan add any back to the basket moves, as may be needed if he plays the 5 when Mason is out?
14. Will Mason play with more consistent confidence than he did this past year?
15. Will Mason play more fluidly when he gets the ball on the blocks?
16. Will Mason develop a face-up 12-to-15 foot jump shot?
17. Will Marshall Plumlee be ready to play big boy basketball? What will he be able to contribute? Will he be strong enough inside against mature post players?
18. Will Josh Hairston (re)gain explosiveness in his legs?
19. Will Josh learn to use his body (without fouling) to keep taller players out of the lane so as to avoid them playing over the top of him?
20. Will Josh gain better judgment as to when it is a good time for him to shoot 17 foot jumpshots and when it isn't?

So there are 20 quick ones that I'd love to know the answers to. I'm sure others have many additional ones. That's part of the fun of watching a team develop is seeing these questions answered as the season goes on. I don't think we know much at all 7 months before the season starts.

[Greg_Newton]

Don't know what Coach K might have told Gbinije about competing with Murphy for a starting spot, but it is clear from what Gbinije's Dad told the Herald-Sun that Coach K did ask him to stay--or at least encouraged him to stay--and suggested there would be some opportunities (unspecified) next year. I don't think we can conclude much about what kind of lineup Coach K is envisioning for next year based on this transfer.

This will probably be unpopular, but I think this whole situation is a little unsettling from a distance, and that the bolded seems like a disingenuous sentiment.

I mean... if I put myself in his shoes, I have a hard time blaming him for his decision, or even disagreeing with it. I'm 6'7, the best athlete on the team, and Coach K told me I have the highest basketball IQ of anyone he's ever recruited when he was trying to get me to come to Duke. However, now I can't crack the rotation, even occasionally as an energy guy, when I'm the only guy between 6'4 and 6'8 and our historically poor perimeter defense is full of guys who let ballhandlers waltz right by them and don't compete for rebounds. Then, after benching me for months, Coach K gives me a nice slap in the face by putting me in for the last few seconds of the humiliating loss to Lehigh so I can sacrifice my fouls for him before going back to the bench. Then, not only does K go all out for a one-and-done who would jump me on the depth chart next year, he goes after any transfer from CMU to Mississippi State that looks like me once he misses, and continues to go all out for a one-and-done who would jump me on the depth chart the following year.

I may be shy, but I'm a very talented basketball player who most high-major programs would be ecstatic to have, and would appreciate. Why in the world would I stay in this situation?

Perhaps he was just a head case, or became a terrible player since I saw him last summer or something, but on the surface... I just don't like how this played out, at all.

[jv001]

You have one of my favorite user names on the board, but I don't agree with you that "we pretty much know what we're getting with next year's team at this point." A quick list of some things we don't know might include:

1. Will Quinn Cook's knee really heal properly?
2. If so, will he be able to play the type of ball-hawking defense and move his feet sufficiently to stay in front of his man that will enable him to take over from Thornton as our primary point guard?
3. Will Thornton improve his ballhandling, shooting, and/or passing, enabling him to actually participate in the offense in a meaningful way and put some pressure on the opposing defense?
4. What will Rasheed Sulaimon bring to the table in terms of ballhandling, shooting, passing, defense, toughness, and contribution to team chemistry?
5. Who will emerge as the leader(s) of the team?
6. Will Seth Curry improve his passing and/or his defense?
7. Will Andre Dawkins add any elements to his game, such as penetrating with the ball, shooting off the dribble, rebounding, or defense?
8. Will Andre gain any consistency in his game?
9. Will he maintain focus and concentration for longer stretches of games?
10. What will Murphy bring to the table in terms of shooting, ballhandling, passing, rebounding, defense, toughness, and contribution to team chemistry?
11. Will Murphy be big and strong enough to play the PF position in Duke's scheme, or will he really belong at the 3?
12. Will Ryan Kelly improve his strength? What about his aggressiveness under the boards?
13. Will Ryan add any back to the basket moves, as may be needed if he plays the 5 when Mason is out?
14. Will Mason play with more consistent confidence than he did this past year?
15. Will Mason play more fluidly when he gets the ball on the blocks?
16. Will Mason develop a face-up 12-to-15 foot jump shot?
17. Will Marshall Plumlee be ready to play big boy basketball? What will he be able to contribute? Will he be strong enough inside against mature post players?
18. Will Josh Hairston (re)gain explosiveness in his legs?
19. Will Josh learn to use his body (without fouling) to keep taller players out of the lane so as to avoid them playing over the top of him?
20. Will Josh gain better judgment as to when it is a good time for him to shoot 17 foot jumpshots and when it isn't?

So there are 20 quick ones that I'd love to know the answers to. I'm sure others have many additional ones. That's part of the fun of watching a team develop is seeing these questions answered as the season goes on. I don't think we know much at all 7 months before the season starts.

Let me add one or two more questions:
Will our guards get the ball to Mason in a good position around the basket?
Will our guards play the passing lanes on defense and create steals that enable us to get out on fast breaks.
There are probably more but those just came to mind.
GoDuke!

[jimsumner]

This will probably be unpopular, but I think this whole situation is a little unsettling from a distance, and that the bolded seems like a disingenuous sentiment.

I mean... if I put myself in his shoes, I have a hard time blaming him for his decision, or even disagreeing with it. I'm 6'7, the best athlete on the team, and Coach K told me I have the highest basketball IQ of anyone he's ever recruited when he was trying to get me to come to Duke. However, now I can't crack the rotation, even occasionally as an energy guy, when I'm the only guy between 6'4 and 6'8 and our historically poor perimeter defense is full of guys who let ballhandlers waltz right by them and don't compete for rebounds. Then, after benching me for months, Coach K gives me a nice slap in the face by putting me in for the last few seconds of the humiliating loss to Lehigh so I can sacrifice my fouls for him before going back to the bench. Then, not only does K go all out for a one-and-done who would jump me on the depth chart next year, he goes after any transfer from CMU to Mississippi State that looks like me once he misses, and continues to go all out for a one-and-done who would jump me on the depth chart the following year.

I may be shy, but I'm a very talented basketball player who most high-major programs would be ecstatic to have, and would appreciate. Why in the world would I stay in this situation?

Perhaps he was just a head case, or became a terrible player since I saw him last summer or something, but on the surface... I just don't like how this played out, at all.

He's not a terrible player and he's certainly not a head case. And he had some bad luck, including a mid-season virus that knocked him back a bit.

But it's a meritocracy. He knew that coming in. He was welcome to compete for PT but not required to. Wish him luck and move on.

Duke was recruiting Muhammad a long time ago. You wouldn't recruit the consensus number one player in the class because that might hurt the 10th-man's feelings? Are you certain that Duke's interest in Zeigler and/or Hood wasn't a result of the likelihood of losing Gbinije? It's not like this came out of nowhere.

And Duke put him in late in the Lehigh game for a simple reason. Duke had to commit a lot of fouls in a hurry and he had fouls to give. You think this was intended as a slap in the face? I see it as a rational allocation of resources.

Players tend to transfer for one of three reasons; PT, academics or distance from home. Gbinije is from Richmond and he was All-ACC academic. I don't think there's any reason to see this as anything more than a decision by a player to seek more playing time somewhere else. It happens. A lot.

[Zeb]

This will probably be unpopular, but I think this whole situation is a little unsettling from a distance...

Perhaps he was just a head case, or became a terrible player since I saw him last summer or something, but on the surface... I just don't like how this played out, at all.

I do not believe in using K's career success to silence all criticisms or concerns. It's a discussion board after all. And I think you do a good job of painting why this is "unsettling". But if we can agree K is not perfect, we can also agree he's not an idiot--if Gbinjie had the ability to make his 2011-2012 team significantly better, isn't it a pretty safe assumption he would have gotten more playing time? Obviously there's something that the coaching staff saw in hundreds of hours of practice and other team interactions that led them to not use Gbinjie much. Its not as if in his small amount of time on the court he showed vastly superior talent/skill than other Duke bench players. The fact that Duke players have raved about his athleticism in practice is certainly something to consider, but no one speculates that it was a lack of athleticism that kept him off the court.

As far as K asking him to stay, I don't think there's much to read into that. Isn't that something that he would say to most players? And wouldn't it certainly be something his family would want people to believe was said? If K really thought he was critical to Duke's future success, he would have used him differently his freshman year. His playing time was K's clearest and loudest assessment of Gbinjie's importance.

While its always possible that Gbinjie is a great talent that has been squandered or mistreated by K and his staff, I think Occam's razor says that its more likely he just isn't as good as we all hoped he would be. As stated numerous times elsewhere in the thread, these types of discussions have occurred after every Duke transfer and about the only one I can remember proving to be a significant D1 contributor was Billy McCaffery, and he was already a solid contributor at Duke when he transferred.

[ncexnyc]

They say there are two sides to every story and I think Greg's and Jim's posts give us a pretty good look at both.

It's difficult for fans to be on the outside looking in and while we'd all like to have a reason given to us it's not going to happen.

[MCFinARL]

This will probably be unpopular, but I think this whole situation is a little unsettling from a distance, and that the bolded seems like a disingenuous sentiment.

I mean... if I put myself in his shoes, I have a hard time blaming him for his decision, or even disagreeing with it. I'm 6'7, the best athlete on the team, and Coach K told me I have the highest basketball IQ of anyone he's ever recruited when he was trying to get me to come to Duke. However, now I can't crack the rotation, even occasionally as an energy guy, when I'm the only guy between 6'4 and 6'8 and our historically poor perimeter defense is full of guys who let ballhandlers waltz right by them and don't compete for rebounds. Then, after benching me for months, Coach K gives me a nice slap in the face by putting me in for the last few seconds of the humiliating loss to Lehigh so I can sacrifice my fouls for him before going back to the bench. Then, not only does K go all out for a one-and-done who would jump me on the depth chart next year, he goes after any transfer from CMU to Mississippi State that looks like me once he misses, and continues to go all out for a one-and-done who would jump me on the depth chart the following year.

I may be shy, but I'm a very talented basketball player who most high-major programs would be ecstatic to have, and would appreciate. Why in the world would I stay in this situation?

Perhaps he was just a head case, or became a terrible player since I saw him last summer or something, but on the surface... I just don't like how this played out, at all.

He's not a terrible player and he's certainly not a head case. And he had some bad luck, including a mid-season virus that knocked him back a bit.

But it's a meritocracy. He knew that coming in. He was welcome to compete for PT but not required to. Wish him luck and move on.

Duke was recruiting Muhammad a long time ago. You wouldn't recruit the consensus number one player in the class because that might hurt the 10th-man's feelings? Are you certain that Duke's interest in Zeigler and/or Hood wasn't a result of the likelihood of losing Gbinije? It's not like this came out of nowhere.

And Duke put him in late in the Lehigh game for a simple reason. Duke had to commit a lot of fouls in a hurry and he had fouls to give. You think this was intended as a slap in the face? I see it as a rational allocation of resources.

Players tend to transfer for one of three reasons; PT, academics or distance from home. Gbinije is from Richmond and he was All-ACC academic. I don't think there's any reason to see this as anything more than a decision by a player to seek more playing time somewhere else. It happens. A lot.

Mostly, I agree with Jim here. And, again, the comments from Gbinije's father, noting how hard a decision it was for Mike and how much he loves Duke, suggest that the Gbinijes didn't think Coach K's remarks were disingenuous. They just, apparently, didn't give him (it was presented clearly as his decision, though the family discussed it) enough confidence that he would see the kind of playing time he wants.

But I do agree with Greg_Newton that, from Gbinije's perspective, this year may have seemed like a lot less than he expected. Doesn't mean anyone misrepresented anything to him, just means he apparently wasn't able to do the things that would get him more time on the court, and he might well have expected that he could do those things--or that other things that he was doing would be a bigger factor than they were in playing time decisions. I'm willing to at least allow for the possibility that the coaching staff might have been able to do something more, or something different, to develop Mike Gbinije's talents this year, given their high praise as he came in. But I don't think I would go as far as saying something doesn't feel right about it--it just didn't work out, and that is too bad for both Mike and Duke.