Thank you. Obviously I completely agree.
Mulletman: do you want to know why I can say "with absolution" that Williams would have been better or more productive than Dawkins in 2010 at Duke? Because Williams was roughly as good a player as a freshman as Dawkins was as a freshman. Williams had a higher FG% (though Dawkins had a higher eFG%), rebounded more frequently, had a similar A/TO (despite handling the ball more), and played better defense. Unless you believe that Williams would have regressed as a player (which runs counter to both his actual performance as a sophomore as well as the common trend amongst all freshmen becoming sophomores), it seems completely logical to assume that Williams would have been better in 2010. I honestly can't figure out how someone would come to a different conclusion.
Again - that's not to say I'm unhappy with the way things worked out. I'll take a national championship any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
I remember that being mentioned as a reason as well, and he is, in fact, young for his class. Andre is 20 and will turn 21 in September. By comparison, Mason recently turned 22, Seth will turn 22 in August (admittedly he would be similar to Andre in age for class if he hadn't transferred), and Ryan has just turned 21.
I'd recommend against finding the clip on YouTube. It's out there, and most of the comments are filled with Kentucky fans clamoring that Magloire should have injured him worse, or stating that Wojo is a [insert bad word] who deserved it. Pretty disgusting stuff, and ironic that it comes from Kentucky fans who have spent their lifetimes arguing that Laettner deserved a T for the stomp (which I don't disagree with).
So wait... when we're talking about Elliot Williams being good, your counter to my arguments has always been that I under estimate his value because he was so efficient. Yet, when we discuss Dawkins v. Williams we kick aside the eFG%? How does that work?
You can't KNOW how Williams would have performed with Duke because HE DIDN'T. That's it. You don't have ANY evidence, all you have is conjecture. My original point, and we've gotten far away from it, is that Williams' transfer didn't hurt Duke.
WWJDD?
Where did I kick it aside? I even specifically acknowledged that Dawkins was a more efficient scorer. I also stated that Williams was similarly efficient in A/TO ratio despite handling the ball more, and played better defense. So on aggregate, I said they were comparable as freshman. I was trying to give a full picture of each's strengths/weaknesses. I am not sure why you chose to latch onto a particular point and suggest I was kicking it aside.
I didn't say I know it. I said I was pretty certain, not 100% certain. Nothing in life is certain, so why waste your time railing on that point? But I'm really really confident of it. And if I were to ask 1,000 other sane people with any reasonable knowledge of Duke basketball in 2009-2010 and any knowledge of Elliot Williams' college career if they thought Williams would have been more productive than Dawkins was, I'm guessing pretty close to 1,000 of them would say "yes." If you can honestly tell me that you think it's reasonable to assume Williams would have performed similarly to Dawkins had he been at Duke in 2010 then I really have to question your ability to judge players' abilities.
I fully agree that it didn't end up hurting Duke in 2010, as we were fortunate that Dawkins came early and we won the title. At that level, we completely agree. But it sure didn't help Duke win the title in 2010, and it has probably hurt Duke a bit in 2011-2014 (by not having Williams for 2011 and by having Dawkins with a year's less eligibility). Did that hurt us a lot? Probably not. But again, I don't see why that should be evidence that Williams wasn't good. I apologize if that's not your point, but I can't figure out why you'd be discussing it otherwise. I simply said Williams was a player who transferred and played well elsewhere, and you jumped to "he was overrated by being in a bad conference" and "it didn't hurt Duke."
His numbers were certainly better at Memphis than they'd have been at Duke in 2010. That said, I can say fairly confidently that he was still a better player than Dawkins in 2010, and I think almost all reasonable people would agree with that. And yes, it didn't keep us from winning a national championship. That is an entirely separate discussion.
Geez. Some guys just cannot lose an argument or leave it without the last word. Can we let this drop?
How about we agree to a few points on this strange E-Will/Dre threadjack:
1) E-Will didn't show his full potential in his short time at Duke, but clearly has lots of talent that would likely have shone at Duke in his later years.
2) Dre probably doesn't come in a year early if Williams doesn't depart suddenly.
3) Duke won a National Championship in 2010, which is completely awesome.
4) Dre's story at Duke isn't fully told yet. A lot of how he is remembered will be written in the 12-13 season.
Just to be clear, Laettner did get a T for his stupid act. I think UK fans have more likely spent their individual and collective lifetimes arguing that Laettner deserved to be tossed from the game.
Thread relevance: I hope Michael Gbinije never does anything as stupid as Laettner's stomp/tap. Also, I hope he hits a few game-winners. Also, that he becomes NDPOY. And credits the D-principles he learned at Duke.
Sad to read on the front page today that Michael Gbinije's father said Michael had not decided to transfer when rumors of his transfer emerged, and that the rumors forced his hand. Of course, he might have reached the same decision with more time to reflect in private. But he might not have--and he should have had the opportunity to take all the time he needed to make such an important decision.
I don't understand why a bunch of rumors from some spotlight-needy tweeters would force Michael to transfer. If somebody came up to me at the office and said, "Hey, a bunch of people are saying you're quitting and leaving for our rival company," I'd respond that it's none of his business and carry on. Seems like an odd way to make a major decision, don't you think?
Agreed, which is why I don't buy what Frank is saying either, but whatever.
I tried thinking about it like this: I remember when we were after Carrick Felix aned he committed, then a month later, committed to ASU instead. He said he had felt pressured to commit to Duke, like he had to. I can understand that. Everyone is in your ear saying wow Coach K is after you, you have to go to Duke!...But this situation is obviously a bit different. It's not like everyone is telling Michael he HAS to stay or leave.
I don't have any animosity toward Mike or his father, but that is an odd statement.
Besides Ewill has there ever been transfer from Duke to have a good college career and get drafted in the NBA?
NBA career? No.
Good college career? Absolutely.
Greg Wendt-Detroit. Pretty good player at mid-major
Bill Jackman-some success at Nebraska.
Billy McCraffrey-SEC co-player of the year and All-America at Vanderbilt
Crawford Palmer-second-team All-Ivy at Dartmouth
Christian Ast-success at American
Joey Beard-good career at Boston
Mike Chappell-backup at MSU. National title ring in 2000.
Chris Burgess-one good season at Utah, then major back problems.
Andre Sweet-started on NCAAT team at Seton Hall
Michael Thompson-career ended early at Northwestern. Moderate success. Could have been a contender.
Eric Boateng-starter on NCAAT team at Arizona State
Jamal Boykin-starter on NCAAT team at Cal. Very good senior year.
Taylor King-nope
Olek Czyz-pretty good player for Nevada.
So, most players who transferred from Duke had solid to very good college careers, a number at lower-tier competition.
It's BS. No one was ever "forced" to transfer because there were rumors indicating they would transfer. That's completely ridiculous. G *may* have felt pressure to make a decision quickly because he was tired of dealing with/ hearing/ responding to rumors, but he could have shut the rumors down just as easily by telling the staff he would return to Duke next year.