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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Dude, that's like saying you can't conclude "with absolution" that next year's Duke team wouldn't be better by adding Lebron James and Dwight Howard, since it's a theoretical scenario that we'll never get to observe. Elliot Williams was a better player that year than Andre Dawkins. Period. Distribute the two of them to any permutation of the 350 D1 basketball teams, and that would still be true.
    Thank you. Obviously I completely agree.

    Mulletman: do you want to know why I can say "with absolution" that Williams would have been better or more productive than Dawkins in 2010 at Duke? Because Williams was roughly as good a player as a freshman as Dawkins was as a freshman. Williams had a higher FG% (though Dawkins had a higher eFG%), rebounded more frequently, had a similar A/TO (despite handling the ball more), and played better defense. Unless you believe that Williams would have regressed as a player (which runs counter to both his actual performance as a sophomore as well as the common trend amongst all freshmen becoming sophomores), it seems completely logical to assume that Williams would have been better in 2010. I honestly can't figure out how someone would come to a different conclusion.

    Again - that's not to say I'm unhappy with the way things worked out. I'll take a national championship any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    I don't know how you can conclude that Williams would have been better or more productive that Dawkins. Yet you state it with absolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    That's like saying you can't conclude "with absolution" ...
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Do you want to know why I can say "with absolution" ...
    I would just like to thank everyone here for being so forgiving.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by azzefkram View Post
    This is why however maddening he can be at time I personally will always hold Dre in high regard. IIRC one of the reasons Dre was planning on a 5th year of HS was that he was/is young for his class, but I could be wrong in this.

    WRT the rest of the paragraph, while I want it to be true I don't think it is. Dre's per 40 number have been stagnant for the past three years. Maybe this year he has a jump like Z had. Dre seems like a good guy and it's always great when good things happen to good people.
    I remember that being mentioned as a reason as well, and he is, in fact, young for his class. Andre is 20 and will turn 21 in September. By comparison, Mason recently turned 22, Seth will turn 22 in August (admittedly he would be similar to Andre in age for class if he hadn't transferred), and Ryan has just turned 21.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyFan View Post
    And I hadn't seen the clip [of Magloire trying to break Wojo in half] since it happened. That game is just a bad memory.
    I'd recommend against finding the clip on YouTube. It's out there, and most of the comments are filled with Kentucky fans clamoring that Magloire should have injured him worse, or stating that Wojo is a [insert bad word] who deserved it. Pretty disgusting stuff, and ironic that it comes from Kentucky fans who have spent their lifetimes arguing that Laettner deserved a T for the stomp (which I don't disagree with).

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Thank you. Obviously I completely agree.

    Mulletman: do you want to know why I can say "with absolution" that Williams would have been better or more productive than Dawkins in 2010 at Duke? Because Williams was roughly as good a player as a freshman as Dawkins was as a freshman. Williams had a higher FG% (though Dawkins had a higher eFG%), rebounded more frequently, had a similar A/TO (despite handling the ball more), and played better defense. Unless you believe that Williams would have regressed as a player (which runs counter to both his actual performance as a sophomore as well as the common trend amongst all freshmen becoming sophomores), it seems completely logical to assume that Williams would have been better in 2010. I honestly can't figure out how someone would come to a different conclusion.

    Again - that's not to say I'm unhappy with the way things worked out. I'll take a national championship any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
    So wait... when we're talking about Elliot Williams being good, your counter to my arguments has always been that I under estimate his value because he was so efficient. Yet, when we discuss Dawkins v. Williams we kick aside the eFG%? How does that work?

    You can't KNOW how Williams would have performed with Duke because HE DIDN'T. That's it. You don't have ANY evidence, all you have is conjecture. My original point, and we've gotten far away from it, is that Williams' transfer didn't hurt Duke.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    So wait... when we're talking about Elliot Williams being good, your counter to my arguments has always been that I under estimate his value because he was so efficient. Yet, when we discuss Dawkins v. Williams we kick aside the eFG%? How does that work?
    Where did I kick it aside? I even specifically acknowledged that Dawkins was a more efficient scorer. I also stated that Williams was similarly efficient in A/TO ratio despite handling the ball more, and played better defense. So on aggregate, I said they were comparable as freshman. I was trying to give a full picture of each's strengths/weaknesses. I am not sure why you chose to latch onto a particular point and suggest I was kicking it aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    You can't KNOW how Williams would have performed with Duke because HE DIDN'T. That's it. You don't have ANY evidence, all you have is conjecture. My original point, and we've gotten far away from it, is that Williams' transfer didn't hurt Duke.
    I didn't say I know it. I said I was pretty certain, not 100% certain. Nothing in life is certain, so why waste your time railing on that point? But I'm really really confident of it. And if I were to ask 1,000 other sane people with any reasonable knowledge of Duke basketball in 2009-2010 and any knowledge of Elliot Williams' college career if they thought Williams would have been more productive than Dawkins was, I'm guessing pretty close to 1,000 of them would say "yes." If you can honestly tell me that you think it's reasonable to assume Williams would have performed similarly to Dawkins had he been at Duke in 2010 then I really have to question your ability to judge players' abilities.

    I fully agree that it didn't end up hurting Duke in 2010, as we were fortunate that Dawkins came early and we won the title. At that level, we completely agree. But it sure didn't help Duke win the title in 2010, and it has probably hurt Duke a bit in 2011-2014 (by not having Williams for 2011 and by having Dawkins with a year's less eligibility). Did that hurt us a lot? Probably not. But again, I don't see why that should be evidence that Williams wasn't good. I apologize if that's not your point, but I can't figure out why you'd be discussing it otherwise. I simply said Williams was a player who transferred and played well elsewhere, and you jumped to "he was overrated by being in a bad conference" and "it didn't hurt Duke."

    His numbers were certainly better at Memphis than they'd have been at Duke in 2010. That said, I can say fairly confidently that he was still a better player than Dawkins in 2010, and I think almost all reasonable people would agree with that. And yes, it didn't keep us from winning a national championship. That is an entirely separate discussion.

  7. #287
    Geez. Some guys just cannot lose an argument or leave it without the last word. Can we let this drop?

  8. #288

    Point/Counterpoint

    How about we agree to a few points on this strange E-Will/Dre threadjack:

    1) E-Will didn't show his full potential in his short time at Duke, but clearly has lots of talent that would likely have shone at Duke in his later years.
    2) Dre probably doesn't come in a year early if Williams doesn't depart suddenly.
    3) Duke won a National Championship in 2010, which is completely awesome.
    4) Dre's story at Duke isn't fully told yet. A lot of how he is remembered will be written in the 12-13 season.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    ... it comes from Kentucky fans who have spent their lifetimes arguing that Laettner deserved a T for the stomp (which I don't disagree with).
    Just to be clear, Laettner did get a T for his stupid act. I think UK fans have more likely spent their individual and collective lifetimes arguing that Laettner deserved to be tossed from the game.

    Thread relevance: I hope Michael Gbinije never does anything as stupid as Laettner's stomp/tap. Also, I hope he hits a few game-winners. Also, that he becomes NDPOY. And credits the D-principles he learned at Duke.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Geez. Some guys just cannot lose an argument or leave it without the last word. Can we let this drop?
    Yes. You're right. I'm out.

  11. #291
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    Arlington, VA
    Sad to read on the front page today that Michael Gbinije's father said Michael had not decided to transfer when rumors of his transfer emerged, and that the rumors forced his hand. Of course, he might have reached the same decision with more time to reflect in private. But he might not have--and he should have had the opportunity to take all the time he needed to make such an important decision.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    Sad to read on the front page today that Michael Gbinije's father said Michael had not decided to transfer when rumors of his transfer emerged, and that the rumors forced his hand.

    with all due respect, mr. gbinije, i don't buy it.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jderf View Post
    I would just like to thank everyone here for being so forgiving.
    Thanks for everyone's indulgence.

  14. #294
    Dev11's Avatar
    Dev11 is offline Commissioner of Statistics, DBR Podcast
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCFinARL View Post
    Sad to read on the front page today that Michael Gbinije's father said Michael had not decided to transfer when rumors of his transfer emerged, and that the rumors forced his hand. Of course, he might have reached the same decision with more time to reflect in private. But he might not have--and he should have had the opportunity to take all the time he needed to make such an important decision.
    I don't understand why a bunch of rumors from some spotlight-needy tweeters would force Michael to transfer. If somebody came up to me at the office and said, "Hey, a bunch of people are saying you're quitting and leaving for our rival company," I'd respond that it's none of his business and carry on. Seems like an odd way to make a major decision, don't you think?

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    I don't understand why a bunch of rumors from some spotlight-needy tweeters would force Michael to transfer. If somebody came up to me at the office and said, "Hey, a bunch of people are saying you're quitting and leaving for our rival company," I'd respond that it's none of his business and carry on. Seems like an odd way to make a major decision, don't you think?

    Agreed, which is why I don't buy what Frank is saying either, but whatever.

    I tried thinking about it like this: I remember when we were after Carrick Felix aned he committed, then a month later, committed to ASU instead. He said he had felt pressured to commit to Duke, like he had to. I can understand that. Everyone is in your ear saying wow Coach K is after you, you have to go to Duke!...But this situation is obviously a bit different. It's not like everyone is telling Michael he HAS to stay or leave.

    I don't have any animosity toward Mike or his father, but that is an odd statement.

  16. #296
    Besides Ewill has there ever been transfer from Duke to have a good college career and get drafted in the NBA?

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE FUTURE View Post
    Besides Ewill has there ever been transfer from Duke to have a good college career and get drafted in the NBA?
    NBA career? No.

    Good college career? Absolutely.

    Greg Wendt-Detroit. Pretty good player at mid-major
    Bill Jackman-some success at Nebraska.
    Billy McCraffrey-SEC co-player of the year and All-America at Vanderbilt
    Crawford Palmer-second-team All-Ivy at Dartmouth
    Christian Ast-success at American
    Joey Beard-good career at Boston
    Mike Chappell-backup at MSU. National title ring in 2000.
    Chris Burgess-one good season at Utah, then major back problems.
    Andre Sweet-started on NCAAT team at Seton Hall
    Michael Thompson-career ended early at Northwestern. Moderate success. Could have been a contender.
    Eric Boateng-starter on NCAAT team at Arizona State
    Jamal Boykin-starter on NCAAT team at Cal. Very good senior year.
    Taylor King-nope
    Olek Czyz-pretty good player for Nevada.

    So, most players who transferred from Duke had solid to very good college careers, a number at lower-tier competition.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    NBA career? No.

    Good college career? Absolutely.

    Greg Wendt-Detroit. Pretty good player at mid-major
    Bill Jackman-some success at Nebraska.
    Billy McCraffrey-SEC co-player of the year and All-America at Vanderbilt
    Crawford Palmer-second-team All-Ivy at Dartmouth
    Christian Ast-success at American
    Joey Beard-good career at Boston
    Mike Chappell-backup at MSU. National title ring in 2000.
    Chris Burgess-one good season at Utah, then major back problems.
    Andre Sweet-started on NCAAT team at Seton Hall
    Michael Thompson-career ended early at Northwestern. Moderate success. Could have been a contender.
    Eric Boateng-starter on NCAAT team at Arizona State
    Jamal Boykin-starter on NCAAT team at Cal. Very good senior year.
    Taylor King-nope
    Olek Czyz-pretty good player for Nevada.

    So, most players who transferred from Duke had solid to very good college careers, a number at lower-tier competition.
    Boateng was a starter at ASU, but I recall him being a pretty bad starter.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    I don't understand why a bunch of rumors from some spotlight-needy tweeters would force Michael to transfer. If somebody came up to me at the office and said, "Hey, a bunch of people are saying you're quitting and leaving for our rival company," I'd respond that it's none of his business and carry on. Seems like an odd way to make a major decision, don't you think?
    It's BS. No one was ever "forced" to transfer because there were rumors indicating they would transfer. That's completely ridiculous. G *may* have felt pressure to make a decision quickly because he was tired of dealing with/ hearing/ responding to rumors, but he could have shut the rumors down just as easily by telling the staff he would return to Duke next year.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Boateng was a starter at ASU, but I recall him being a pretty bad starter.
    I think he got called for like 5 or 6 travels when we played them in the Garden during his senior year.

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