Page 14 of 20 FirstFirst ... 41213141516 ... LastLast
Results 261 to 280 of 399
  1. #261
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    So you're telling me that Elliot Williams' transfer hurt Duke? Is that what you're telling me? He was a good player on a weak team in a very mediocre conference at Memphis. They had been totally decimated by the exodus with Cal to Kentucky. His transfer, while too bad, didn't mean anything to Duke in the long run. Sorry.
    Yes. It made us a less talented team in 2010. And it pushed Dawkins to come a year early, which has put him a year behind the curve. Thankfully, we survived it and won the title in 2010 anyway. But there is no question in my mind that Williams would have made us a better team in 2010, and it would have made Dawkins a bit better as well. And that ignores the possibility that he wouldn't have gone pro after 2010 (if he'd just had a very solid 2010 as 6th man rather than being the star like he was in Memphis) had he stayed at Duke.

    It doesn't matter that Memphis was a decimated team. Williams was a very good and efficient scorer (in spite of not having any support). Unless you can reasonably argue that a freshman Dawkins was better than a sophomore Williams (who was good enough to get drafted in the first round), then yes, Williams would have made us better in 2010. And unless you think Dawkins somehow is better off being a senior now instead of a junior, then yes I think Williams would have made us better in 2011 and beyond.

    The impact may have been small (as we wound up winning the title anyway and have been very good since then, too). But that doesn't mean his transfer didn't make us somewhat worse. Very few players are going to ever completely change a program (especially one as good as Duke), so your point that he didn't drastically alter the course of Duke basketball rings hollow - he was a very good player and we would have benefited by him staying instead of leaving.

  2. #262

    Transfers, Goodwill, and Next Play

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilCorvette! View Post
    Wow...really...Coach K didn't agree with me? Thanks for the news flash! Heck I didn't even realize I had held a conversation with Coach K and expressed my thoughts. I thought I was merely posting my opinion on a message board. Next play??? Yea right...SMH man...
    Outrage and indignation over this transfer make no sense to me. Do we all wish Silent G had worked out better? Of course - I'm sure both K and Gbinije agree as well. When you are a highly regarded recruit or a high level coach you are taking chances on things, and sometimes those chances don't work out. Who knows what really happened? Maybe K didn't like G's attitude. Maybe G didn't like playing defense. Perhaps they just both realized it wasn't a good long-term fit. Maybe G knows something about incoming players that we don't that would affect his potential playing time over the next few years. Maybe G wants to be closer to his girlfriend.

    What I like about our program is that WE WON'T KNOW! We run a classy system and you won't hear K going on ESPN Radio like Coach Ryan at Wisco was this morning trying to defend his skeezy shenanigans and plan to block potential transfer destinations.

    If we don't get confirmed reasoning for the transfer (like Elliot Williams and his mother) then let's assume it was amicable and move on. In other words, yes, "Next play." Let's focus on the players that will be wearing Duke uniforms next year. And you don't have to wish G the best in his career going forward, but I certainly do. You aren't doing either the player or the program any service by making assumptions about what did or didn't provoke the split.

    So, go ahead and "SMH" all you want, I'm going to stick with K's Next Play philosophy. We've got lots of good kids and lots of talent and I'm eager to fast-forward to next season.

  3. #263
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    How would having Dre play a 5th year in HS helped his game now...Coming to Duke he got to practice w/ a national championship D-1 team every day, go head to head against future pros, experience college conditioning and weight training. Alex' situation is exactly the same, what would be the benefit of going to HS an extra year when you can get your experience at Duke, that's a lot of the reasons some are expecting big things for him next rear (warranted or not)...and Dre actually played so that's added game experience. Dre is what he is at this point, I don't think an extra year of HS ball would've changed that IMO
    The difference is that Dawkins would be only a junior now, instead of a senior. He'd have gotten an extra year of physical development. And just as importantly, he'd have gotten an extra summer with the program (he arrived right as school started as he was taking HS summer school before his freshman year. He likely wouldn't be as good this year (as a junior) as he is, but next year (as a senior) he'd be better than he'll be this year.

    At the very worst, we'd have been no better off in terms of Dawkins' performance. But I'd argue that an older Dawkins would have been better as a freshman than he was, he'd have been better as a sophomore than he was, and better as a junior than he was - all by virtue of having that extra year of physical development and extra summer of working with the team. And I can unequivocally say that a sophomore Williams would have been better than the freshman Dawkins. So we'd get 4 slightly better years of Dawkins and one (or more) better years of Williams.

    Now, you may counter that some recruits (Gbinije? Jones?) might not have committed had Dawkins been a year later in arrival and thus better. But that's debatable.

  4. #264
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I agree that a year at Duke provides better opportunities for development than a year in high school. What I'm arguing is that staying in high school would have pushed everything back, so when he started at Duke he would have been more ready to contribute. He might not be quite as far along right now, but he'd also only be a junior.

    Alex's situation is similar, except that he's taking a red shirt so he will still have four years to develop at Duke. In retrospect, perhaps that would have been a good option for Andre if not for the fact that we needed him so badly right away.
    I don't know I guess I just look at it as...they've already been in HS 4 years and should be ready to go, I know some kids are going the 5 year route but its not the norm

  5. #265
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The difference is that Dawkins would be only a junior now, instead of a senior. He'd have gotten an extra year of physical development. And just as importantly, he'd have gotten an extra summer with the program (he arrived right as school started as he was taking HS summer school before his freshman year. He likely wouldn't be as good this year (as a junior) as he is, but next year (as a senior) he'd be better than he'll be this year.

    At the very worst, we'd have been no better off in terms of Dawkins' performance. But I'd argue that an older Dawkins would have been better as a freshman than he was, he'd have been better as a sophomore than he was, and better as a junior than he was - all by virtue of having that extra year of physical development and extra summer of working with the team. And I can unequivocally say that a sophomore Williams would have been better than the freshman Dawkins. So we'd get 4 slightly better years of Dawkins and one (or more) better years of Williams.

    Now, you may counter that some recruits (Gbinije? Jones?) might not have committed had Dawkins been a year later in arrival and thus better. But that's debatable.
    I enjoy that when you discuss something with other posters on the boards, you get to speak about things in absolutes yet others' points are "debatable". Please.

    We get it... you believe that Elliot Williams was a great player. I think everyone gets that I disagree with you. It does matter that Williams was the only offensive option for a Memphis team that plays in conference USA. It matters because he would not have been the number one option on the 09-10 Duke team which had Scheyer, Singler, and Smith as their most potent offensive options. I don't know how you can conclude that Williams would have been better or more productive that Dawkins. Yet you state it with absolution.

    Whatever. We can go around and around in circles on this. Agree to disagree.

  6. #266
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The difference is that Dawkins would be only a junior now, instead of a senior. He'd have gotten an extra year of physical development. And just as importantly, he'd have gotten an extra summer with the program (he arrived right as school started as he was taking HS summer school before his freshman year. He likely wouldn't be as good this year (as a junior) as he is, but next year (as a senior) he'd be better than he'll be this year.

    At the very worst, we'd have been no better off in terms of Dawkins' performance. But I'd argue that an older Dawkins would have been better as a freshman than he was, he'd have been better as a sophomore than he was, and better as a junior than he was - all by virtue of having that extra year of physical development and extra summer of working with the team. And I can unequivocally say that a sophomore Williams would have been better than the freshman Dawkins. So we'd get 4 slightly better years of Dawkins and one (or more) better years of Williams.

    Now, you may counter that some recruits (Gbinije? Jones?) might not have committed had Dawkins been a year later in arrival and thus better. But that's debatable.
    Maybe they should just make all D-1 prospects play 5 years in HS

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The difference is that Dawkins would be only a junior now, instead of a senior. He'd have gotten an extra year of physical development. And just as importantly, he'd have gotten an extra summer with the program (he arrived right as school started as he was taking HS summer school before his freshman year. He likely wouldn't be as good this year (as a junior) as he is, but next year (as a senior) he'd be better than he'll be this year.

    At the very worst, we'd have been no better off in terms of Dawkins' performance. But I'd argue that an older Dawkins would have been better as a freshman than he was, he'd have been better as a sophomore than he was, and better as a junior than he was - all by virtue of having that extra year of physical development and extra summer of working with the team. And I can unequivocally say that a sophomore Williams would have been better than the freshman Dawkins. So we'd get 4 slightly better years of Dawkins and one (or more) better years of Williams.

    Now, you may counter that some recruits (Gbinije? Jones?) might not have committed had Dawkins been a year later in arrival and thus better. But that's debatable.
    This is second guessing of the worst degree. If Dawkins doesn't come, do we beat Baylor? Do we win the National Championship?

    Dawkins showed a great deal of selflessness to leave high school ahead of schedule and help out Duke because we were shorthanded after the Williams transfer. When you factor the personal tragedy he has been through while at Duke, I think he is progressing fine. I understand that people are extra critical because he has so much potential, and is one of the best shooters we have seen here at Duke, but he showed significant improvement his sophmore year, and I expect he will show more improvement this year as well. Players will often plateau for a couple of years as they develop...it doesn't mean they aren't getting better it just means it hasn't all clicked consistently on the court.

    Lets be thankful for what we have and not spend so much time tearing down our players after a disappointing finish to the season.

  8. #268
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Maybe they should just make all D-1 prospects play 5 years in HS
    Dude, don't you ever get tired of humping this five year thing? Every single thread, you get into an argument with someone about 5-year players or how we're all stupid for misunderstanding Murphy's HS ranking. It's a really bizarre obsession.

  9. #269
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    -Maybe Nolan doesn't break-out in 2010 if Elliott stays..it's hard to improve upon what happened in 2010

    -Maybe we don't win the 2010 title if Andre stays in HS (big 3s he hit against Baylor)

    -Arguing that a player should leave high school to become a better player at Duke is the similar argument that a player should leave Duke to become a better player in the NBA - unless the argument is based on there being no better place for talent to develop and flourish than the Krzyzewski Center for Athletic Excellence (no problem with anyone that holds that opinion)

    -Maybe Silent G was, like other transfers and recruits who never show up, just not that into Duke. Like most spoiled relationships, it's usually best to simply move on because what's done is done.

  10. #270
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greenville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    Outrage and indignation over this transfer make no sense to me. Do we all wish Silent G had worked out better? Of course - I'm sure both K and Gbinije agree as well. When you are a highly regarded recruit or a high level coach you are taking chances on things, and sometimes those chances don't work out. Who knows what really happened? Maybe K didn't like G's attitude. Maybe G didn't like playing defense. Perhaps they just both realized it wasn't a good long-term fit. Maybe G knows something about incoming players that we don't that would affect his potential playing time over the next few years. Maybe G wants to be closer to his girlfriend.

    What I like about our program is that WE WON'T KNOW! We run a classy system and you won't hear K going on ESPN Radio like Coach Ryan at Wisco was this morning trying to defend his skeezy shenanigans and plan to block potential transfer destinations.

    If we don't get confirmed reasoning for the transfer (like Elliot Williams and his mother) then let's assume it was amicable and move on. In other words, yes, "Next play." Let's focus on the players that will be wearing Duke uniforms next year. And you don't have to wish G the best in his career going forward, but I certainly do. You aren't doing either the player or the program any service by making assumptions about what did or didn't provoke the split.

    So, go ahead and "SMH" all you want, I'm going to stick with K's Next Play philosophy. We've got lots of good kids and lots of talent and I'm eager to fast-forward to next season.

    Whoa man...take a drink of water and bring it down a notch. It's totally up to you if you desire to initiate your Next Play philosophy and move forward but there is nothing wrong with other posters who still choose to express their opinions on this topic on an opinionated message board (until the thread is closed).

  11. #271
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by Des Esseintes View Post
    Dude, don't you ever get tired of humping this five year thing? Every single thread, you get into an argument with someone about 5-year players or how we're all stupid for misunderstanding Murphy's HS ranking. It's a really bizarre obsession.
    I thought I could comment on whatever subject I felt like, my fault if im bothering you...

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter View Post
    I rarely think about that game -- I was a freshman, and I was crushed -- but I always thought a definitive turning point was when Magloire stretched Wojo. I recall thinking Wojo just wasn't the same after that, and in that sense, Avery might have been a better option down the stretch. But I'd have to watch the whole thing over to remember, and I have no desire to do so.
    Avery was at best an ordinary defender his freshman year, so I have my doubts he would have slowed down Turner. But the situation was begging for a change in defensive strategy. Our offense was also tanking late in that game, and Wojo was really out of it - IIRC, he got called for a double dribble without a defender near him. Avery could have definitely provided us with a boost there. I suspect what crippled K most was that we used our last timeout with 5 minutes left.

    And I hadn't seen the clip seen since it happened. That game is just a bad memory.

  13. #273
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    OK, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    -
    -Arguing that a player should leave high school to become a better player at Duke is the similar argument that a player should leave Duke to become a better player in the NBA - unless the argument is based on there being no better place for talent to develop and flourish than the Krzyzewski Center for Athletic Excellence (no problem with anyone that holds that opinion).
    Well, if you are comparing a HS student with a definitive offer from a high-major college with a college player with the metaphysical certainty of a multi-year NBA contract -- yeah, there is at least an analogy. But only 24 college players last year got guaranteed NBA contracts (out of 30 first rounders), and fewer players have a certainty of getting one. Whereas, 300 or athletes get offered scholarships at the top 75 schools (BCS, e.g.) plus over 1,000 for all the D-1 schools (347 x approx. 3).

    But even there, there are differences. Playing at Oak Hill or DeMatha or (shudder) Mater Dei is different from playing at a plain-old high school and earlier entry to college will be an upgrade in coaching; and yeah, AAU ball may make a difference, if you happen to be on a team-oriented squad which actually plays some D -- surely there must be one or two. Also, there's medical care: Quinn had an injury at Oak Hill (where he went after DeMatha IIRC) that may not have been appropritely treated (100+ miles from a tertiary care hospital).
    -Maybe Silent G was, like other transfers and recruits who never show up, just not that into Duke. Like most spoiled relationships, it's usually best to simply move on because what's done is done.
    Silent G was "into Duke" enough to make Academic All-ACC.

    sagegrouse

  14. #274

    Here We Go

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilCorvette! View Post
    Whoa man...take a drink of water and bring it down a notch. It's totally up to you if you desire to initiate your Next Play philosophy and move forward but there is nothing wrong with other posters who still choose to express their opinions on this topic on an opinionated message board (until the thread is closed).
    I offered a pretty rational take on why we should all move along and not dwell upon former players and make guesses as to what their departure means about our team, coach, program, or the other player. You are "SMH" and asking people to take a glass of water, and I'm trying to inject a level of sensibility into the strange "the sky is falling" reactionary discourse. I even admitted that you have a right to "smh" if you like, but that I was going to continue looking ahead to the players and team we have next year.

    I know that rational discourse on internet message boards is a needle in a haystack, but I've been coming here for a long time and I admire the relative level-headedness and the diligent moderation - which probably will include closing this thread in short order.

    At any rate, this conversation is going nowhere. I wish G the best and still acknowledge everyone's rights to use this as a reason to condemn the players, coaches, program - whatever you like. Myself, I'm going to be optimistic about next year and I like our chances of winning the ACC and making a deep run in the NCAA tournament. I encourage you to enjoy the continued discussion.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    This is second guessing of the worst degree. If Dawkins doesn't come, do we beat Baylor? Do we win the National Championship?

    Dawkins showed a great deal of selflessness to leave high school ahead of schedule and help out Duke because we were shorthanded after the Williams transfer. When you factor the personal tragedy he has been through while at Duke, I think he is progressing fine. I understand that people are extra critical because he has so much potential, and is one of the best shooters we have seen here at Duke, but he showed significant improvement his sophmore year, and I expect he will show more improvement this year as well. Players will often plateau for a couple of years as they develop...it doesn't mean they aren't getting better it just means it hasn't all clicked consistently on the court.

    Lets be thankful for what we have and not spend so much time tearing down our players after a disappointing finish to the season.
    This is why however maddening he can be at time I personally will always hold Dre in high regard. IIRC one of the reasons Dre was planning on a 5th year of HS was that he was/is young for his class, but I could be wrong in this.

    WRT the rest of the paragraph, while I want it to be true I don't think it is. Dre's per 40 number have been stagnant for the past three years. Maybe this year he has a jump like Z had. Dre seems like a good guy and it's always great when good things happen to good people.

  16. #276
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Well, if you are comparing a HS student with a definitive offer from a high-major college with a college player with the metaphysical certainty of a multi-year NBA contract -- yeah, there is at least an analogy. But only 24 college players last year got guaranteed NBA contracts (out of 30 first rounders), and fewer players have a certainty of getting one. Whereas, 300 or athletes get offered scholarships at the top 75 schools (BCS, e.g.) plus over 1,000 for all the D-1 schools (347 x approx. 3).

    But even there, there are differences. Playing at Oak Hill or DeMatha or (shudder) Mater Dei is different from playing at a plain-old high school and earlier entry to college will be an upgrade in coaching; and yeah, AAU ball may make a difference, if you happen to be on a team-oriented squad which actually plays some D -- surely there must be one or two. Also, there's medical care: Quinn had an injury at Oak Hill (where he went after DeMatha IIRC) that may not have been appropritely treated (100+ miles from a tertiary care hospital).


    Silent G was "into Duke" enough to make Academic All-ACC.

    sagegrouse
    I think we're on the same page with the "leaving early" argument, my point was that many who argue that kids should come to Duke early also argue that they should never leave Duke early. Aside from William Avery, who was a lottery pick, and Shav, we've never had someone leave early who didn't back it up with a lengthy and high paying NBA career.

    As for Silent G being into Duke, I meant purely from a basketball program perspective. If academics are as important to him as hoops, maybe he'll surprise everyone and join Tommy at Harvard. He'll be taking a $50K per year pay cut, though.

  17. #277
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greenville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    I offered a pretty rational take on why we should all move along and not dwell upon former players and make guesses as to what their departure means about our team, coach, program, or the other player. You are "SMH" and asking people to take a glass of water, and I'm trying to inject a level of sensibility into the strange "the sky is falling" reactionary discourse. I even admitted that you have a right to "smh" if you like, but that I was going to continue looking ahead to the players and team we have next year.

    I know that rational discourse on internet message boards is a needle in a haystack, but I've been coming here for a long time and I admire the relative level-headedness and the diligent moderation - which probably will include closing this thread in short order.

    At any rate, this conversation is going nowhere. I wish G the best and still acknowledge everyone's rights to use this as a reason to condemn the players, coaches, program - whatever you like. Myself, I'm going to be optimistic about next year and I like our chances of winning the ACC and making a deep run in the NCAA tournament. I encourage you to enjoy the continued discussion.
    It's all good. Even after Mike G's impending transfer was confirmed, the sun still came up each day thereafter, hence like you, I remain optimistic about next year.

  18. #278
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    I enjoy that when you discuss something with other posters on the boards, you get to speak about things in absolutes yet others' points are "debatable". Please.

    We get it... you believe that Elliot Williams was a great player. I think everyone gets that I disagree with you. It does matter that Williams was the only offensive option for a Memphis team that plays in conference USA. It matters because he would not have been the number one option on the 09-10 Duke team which had Scheyer, Singler, and Smith as their most potent offensive options. I don't know how you can conclude that Williams would have been better or more productive that Dawkins. Yet you state it with absolution.

    Whatever. We can go around and around in circles on this. Agree to disagree.
    I just don't see how anyone can reasonably assert that a freshman Dawkins (with no summer training) was as productive as Williams would have been as a sophomore at Duke. I'm not saying Williams would have put up the numbers he put up at Memphis had he stayed at Duke. Obviously he would not have done so. For one, he'd have been the 6th man rather than the go-to guy. I simply use that data as evidence that he was a good player and would have helped more than Dawkins in 2010.

    Clearly you disagree, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't have responded except that your post sure seemed like spinning my argument into something that it was not. I felt it appropriate to respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    This is second guessing of the worst degree. If Dawkins doesn't come, do we beat Baylor? Do we win the National Championship?
    And if Williams was there, maybe we are the #1 overall seed instead of a lower #1. Or, maybe we are far enough ahead of Baylor that Dawkins' pair of 3s weren't difference makers. The "what ifs" work both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by theAlaskanBear View Post
    Dawkins showed a great deal of selflessness to leave high school ahead of schedule and help out Duke because we were shorthanded after the Williams transfer. When you factor the personal tragedy he has been through while at Duke, I think he is progressing fine. I understand that people are extra critical because he has so much potential, and is one of the best shooters we have seen here at Duke, but he showed significant improvement his sophmore year, and I expect he will show more improvement this year as well. Players will often plateau for a couple of years as they develop...it doesn't mean they aren't getting better it just means it hasn't all clicked consistently on the court.

    Lets be thankful for what we have and not spend so much time tearing down our players after a disappointing finish to the season.
    You are suggesting an argument that I'm not making. I'm very thankful that Dawkins came when Williams decided to transfer. We almost certainly don't win the national championship without him. It was an incredibly unselfish, team-first act. And for that he will forever have my respect. And I'm ecstatic that we won the title in 2010. I'm not at all upset with how any of it played out. That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that things could have been even better by having the better player in 2010 (I think it's crazy talk to say Dawkins was better in 2010) and a better version of Dawkins from 2011-2014.

    I see nothing wrong with being thrilled with what we got and still being able to see that we could possibly have gotten even more. If I traded item X from the bottom of my closet for item Y and then found out that item Y was worth $1,000,000 but item X was possibly worth $1,500,000, I'd be ecstatic that I just made $1,000,000. But I'd also understand that I could have had $1,500,000. (And yes, I realize it's not a perfect analogy, so please don't nitpick. It's the concept that matters.)

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    I don't know how you can conclude that Williams would have been better or more productive that Dawkins. Yet you state it with absolution.
    Dude, that's like saying you can't conclude "with absolution" that next year's Duke team wouldn't be better by adding Lebron James and Dwight Howard, since it's a theoretical scenario that we'll never get to observe. Elliot Williams was a better player that year than Andre Dawkins. Period. Distribute the two of them to any permutation of the 350 D1 basketball teams, and that would still be true.

    Elimination tournaments are funny things and of course I can't say that we would have won that year if Dawkins had been replaced with Williams. This is particularly true for a team like 2010 Duke for which team chemistry was vitally important. However, I also don't know if we would win that tournament again if you replayed it with exactly the same rosters. But Williams was a better individual player than Dawkins, and would have been at Duke.

  20. #280
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Holy crap has this thread jumped the shark (or should I say snark)

Similar Threads

  1. Welcome to Duke Michael Gbinije
    By Owen Meany in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 230
    Last Post: 08-08-2011, 12:22 AM
  2. Gbinije on ESPNU Tonight at 7 PM!
    By airowe in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 07-17-2010, 02:54 PM
  3. Michael Gbinije
    By duke4life32182 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-16-2010, 09:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •