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  1. #241
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DUKIE V(A) View Post
    Okay the Bandaid has been ripped off. Duke/Kentucky is one of my top 3 most painful Duke losses. How many times did Wayne Turner "carry" the ball that game to get to the basket? Brutal officiating. If those calls are made, Duke likely wins that game easily and has a pretty good shot at winning the National Championship (perhaps changing the 1999 roster depending on whether Elton Brand decided to go pro after winning the title).
    If my somewhat hazy memory serves correctly, with a few minutes left Roshown McCloud got called for an intentional foul for committing a moving screen, or something absurd like that. Gave them shots and the ball. And that doesn't even count Wojo getting bent in half; the fact that no technical was called there is beyond comprehension.


    As for Turner, I couldn't find a link to the judge's quote, but here's a rundown of the basic story

  2. #242
    I rarely think about that game -- I was a freshman, and I was crushed -- but I always thought a definitive turning point was when Magloire stretched Wojo. I recall thinking Wojo just wasn't the same after that, and in that sense, Avery might have been a better option down the stretch. But I'd have to watch the whole thing over to remember, and I have no desire to do so.

    Personally, I liked the idea of Gbinije and wanted to see what he was made of, though I'm not particularly fanatical about it. I didn't think we saw enough to really make any sort of conclusions one way or another about his defense, though I tend to think his athleticism and size could have been an asset on a team that was short on both. And a potential time investment definitely had upside, especially when Duke got late in the season and didn't have any actual small forwards. But when it comes down to it, very few really know what goes down behind the scenes.

  3. #243
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    It's clear that today's highly recruited player wants lots of PT right away, and will often transfer if it doesn't happen his first year.

    It makes me wonder if Kentucky's current run is 100% predicated on all of Cal's best players leaving every year? Getting the best talent, although he claims to not promise PT, may be tied to immediate meaningful playing time. His magic touch seems 100% tied to finding the sweet spot between a huge advantage in talent and a huge disadvantage in experience. After recruiting, his master talent has been creating a system that seasons those raw recruits rapidly, almost like the drugs they shoot into preemies to rapidly mature their lungs. Would he be as effective a recruiter if he didn't generate 3-5 first round draft picks every year?

    I say all of this because it really surprises me that more top 100 recruits don't go the "big fish small pond" route. Why battle for playing time at Duke when you could potentially be an instant headliner at Wichita State or Southern Illinois. Find that young coach on the fast track and basically decide that you and the coach are going to be one-and-done together....you'll get 25 shots a game and be an instant star as ESPN and their 20 college bball writers miss no one anymore, and your coach will show the next big boy school with an opening that he is a winner and a big time recruiter (Illinois comes to mind). I am not saying that's where it should go, it just surprises me that it hasn't gone that way. It's kind of like kids trying to get into the top colleges...is your chance of getting into Duke better if you are at a highly competitive high school with 50 kids shooting for the top 10 schools or if you are class valedictorian with great SATs from some lesser public school that never sends anyone to Duke...in Idaho.

  4. #244
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    This is tangential to the point, but Price was not relevant here. Price wasn't an option to replace Wojo because Price wasn't a PG. Wayne Turner would have taken Langdon's or Price's lunch if they tried to play PG. The correct answer was Avery. He had the size and quickness to match up with Turner. But Coach K was committed to his senior PG, and wasn't willing to rely on the freshman Avery in such a big game. And Wayne Turner had his way with Wojo in the second half, beating him off the dribble and creating for others as Kentucky made up a huge second-half deficit to win the game.

    I'd say that Elliot Williams did okay for himself at Memphis after transferring from Duke.
    I will agree that you could have had Avery on the floor. Absolutely. However, comparing Price and Gbinije is relevant in my mind because you could see a situation where either of those players was on the floor and was called on to guard a more athletic PG or SG, even while our starting PG was still on the floor. You need look back no further than Elliot Williams to see this. Williams often guarded the opposing team's PG with Paulus on the floor while Paulus took the reigns on the offensive end. Either way works I think.

    And I'll grant that Williams did fine at Memphis, however, I don't know that Duke missed him or that he did anything truly amazing. But I've voiced my opinion on that here before. Let's agree that Williams did OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    Count me on the side that says the front page article was unnecessarily harsh on Mike Gbinije.

    His defesne was no worse that most incoming frosh, and it smacks of sour grapes.
    So in analyzing why he didn't see more court time, DBR notes that his defense may not have been up to par. You acknowledge that many frosh don't play defense up to Duke's standards. Many frosh don't get off the bench for Duke because their D is not up to par. How is this sour grapes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    It's clear that today's highly recruited player wants lots of PT right away, and will often transfer if it doesn't happen his first year.

    It makes me wonder if Kentucky's current run is 100% predicated on all of Cal's best players leaving every year? Getting the best talent, although he claims to not promise PT, may be tied to immediate meaningful playing time. His magic touch seems 100% tied to finding the sweet spot between a huge advantage in talent and a huge disadvantage in experience. After recruiting, his master talent has been creating a system that seasons those raw recruits rapidly, almost like the drugs they shoot into preemies to rapidly mature their lungs. Would he be as effective a recruiter if he didn't generate 3-5 first round draft picks every year?

    I say all of this because it really surprises me that more top 100 recruits don't go the "big fish small pond" route. Why battle for playing time at Duke when you could potentially be an instant headliner at Wichita State or Southern Illinois. Find that young coach on the fast track and basically decide that you and the coach are going to be one-and-done together....you'll get 25 shots a game and be an instant star as ESPN and their 20 college bball writers miss no one anymore, and your coach will show the next big boy school with an opening that he is a winner and a big time recruiter (Illinois comes to mind). I am not saying that's where it should go, it just surprises me that it hasn't gone that way.
    Or a major power that is having a down period? See: Muhammad, Shabazz and UCLA.
    WWJDD?

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    I will agree that you could have had Avery on the floor. Absolutely. However, comparing Price and Gbinije is relevant in my mind because you could see a situation where either of those players was on the floor and was called on to guard a more athletic PG or SG, even while our starting PG was still on the floor. You need look back no further than Elliot Williams to see this. Williams often guarded the opposing team's PG with Paulus on the floor while Paulus took the reigns on the offensive end. Either way works I think.
    Paulus and Williams rarely shared the floor together. When Williams started playing more, Paulus was relegated to minimal time and Scheyer became the PG. And Price still isn't a good example, because Wojo wouldn't have matched up well with Kentucky's shooting guard (who had 4-5 inches and was a terrific leaper and shooter). I'm not sure that Avery could have stopped Turner, but Wojo clearly could not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    And I'll grant that Williams did fine at Memphis, however, I don't know that Duke missed him or that he did anything truly amazing. But I've voiced my opinion on that here before. Let's agree that Williams did OK.
    I was being facetious when I said "okay." He did more than okay. He was very good. He was very efficient. He took a lot of shots, but he was very efficient. We had this discussion before, and I still think you're wrong about him.

    The fact that we won a championship does not mean we didn't miss him. He was much better on both ends of the floor than Dawkins and Kelly (the backups at SG and SF that year). Obviously we won the title without him, and that is a testament to the players that were there. But make no mistake, he'd have made us better. And he'd probably have made Dawkins better (by having him come to school a year later). Imagine next year being Dawkins' junior year rather than his senior year.

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham at heart
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I was being facetious when I said "okay." He did more than okay. He was very good. He was very efficient. He took a lot of shots, but he was very efficient. We had this discussion before, and I still think you're wrong about him.

    The fact that we won a championship does not mean we didn't miss him. He was much better on both ends of the floor than Dawkins and Kelly (the backups at SG and SF that year). Obviously we won the title without him, and that is a testament to the players that were there. But make no mistake, he'd have made us better. And he'd probably have made Dawkins better (by having him come to school a year later). Imagine next year being Dawkins' junior year rather than his senior year.

    So you're telling me that Elliot Williams' transfer hurt Duke? Is that what you're telling me? He was a good player on a weak team in a very mediocre conference at Memphis. They had been totally decimated by the exodus with Cal to Kentucky. His transfer, while too bad, didn't mean anything to Duke in the long run. Sorry.
    WWJDD?

  7. #247
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greenville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    By the way, let me propose the "Silent G Transfer" as the perfect storm in terms of a high ratio of heat (passion) to light (insight).

    A. Silent G was a highly regarded recruit.

    B. He had obvious length and possible quickness not present on the roster and seemingly useful on a team whose defensive skills and intensity were often lacking.

    C. Yet he played only 111 minutes in 34 games (3.3 MPG), so no fan could guage how good he was.

    D. He transferred after his freshman year and will not surface as a player until November 2013.

    Now, I ask you, what useful insights could any poster possibly offer on this topic?

    sagegrouse
    'But, of course, we all tried'
    In regards to "C" I just think that the variables listed in "B" would have made it more difficult for opposing 6-7 / 6-8 players to score versus allowing them to consistently shoot over the top of 6-1 / 6-2 Duke defenders. Heck, if other teams are going to score I'd rather make them earn it and not make it seems like they are shooting fish in a barrel...I guess all the whining on my part is because I (and other Duke fans) never got to see enough "C" thus "D" is now pounding us in the gut like a Mike Tyson body punch!

  8. #248
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    So you're telling me that Elliot Williams' transfer hurt Duke? Is that what you're telling me? He was a good player on a weak team in a very mediocre conference at Memphis. They had been totally decimated by the exodus with Cal to Kentucky. His transfer, while too bad, didn't mean anything to Duke in the long run. Sorry.

    It didn't hurt us in the long run, that thinking is a little far fetched, but I don't disagree that he would've made us even better in 2010. Elliot is and was a dynamic player. A young freshman Andre Dawkins and a sophomore Elliot Williams, I would take the latter. Considering the guy is in the NBA now, I think it would've done wonders for Jon, Nolan, and Kyle.

  9. #249
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilCorvette! View Post
    In regards to "C" I just think that the variables listed in "B" would have made it more difficult for opposing 6-7 / 6-8 players to score versus allowing them to consistently shoot over the top of 6-1 / 6-2 Duke defenders. Heck, if other teams are going to score I'd rather make them earn it and not make it seems like they are shooting fish in a barrel...I guess all the whining on my part is because I (and other Duke fans) never got to see enough "C" thus "D" is now pounding us in the gut like a Mike Tyson body punch!
    Coach K didn't agree with you, and he's the one who allocates playing time. Mike Tyson body punch? Next play, already.

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoCrazy84 View Post
    It didn't hurt us in the long run, that thinking is a little far fetched, but I don't disagree that he would've made us even better in 2010. Elliot is and was a dynamic player. A young freshman Andre Dawkins and a sophomore Elliot Williams, I would take the latter. Considering the guy is in the NBA now, I think it would've done wonders for Jon, Nolan, and Kyle.
    But he couldn't shoot from the outside very well. Impossible to say for certain, of course, but do we beat Baylor without Andre? Changing history is a risky business.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I say all of this because it really surprises me that more top 100 recruits don't go the "big fish small pond" route. Why battle for playing time at Duke when you could potentially be an instant headliner at Wichita State or Southern Illinois. Find that young coach on the fast track and basically decide that you and the coach are going to be one-and-done together....you'll get 25 shots a game and be an instant star as ESPN and their 20 college bball writers miss no one anymore, and your coach will show the next big boy school with an opening that he is a winner and a big time recruiter (Illinois comes to mind). I am not saying that's where it should go, it just surprises me that it hasn't gone that way. It's kind of like kids trying to get into the top colleges...is your chance of getting into Duke better if you are at a highly competitive high school with 50 kids shooting for the top 10 schools or if you are class valedictorian with great SATs from some lesser public school that never sends anyone to Duke...in Idaho.
    I'd imagine it's for the same reason top HS ACADEMIC students goes to Duke or the Ivy Leagues over Wichita State or Southern Illinois. Sure they could be the big fish in a small pond, maybe even graduate first in their college class. There is definitely less risk of falling behind the curve in a class. But at the top schools, they get the best professors and get to compete/learn with the best. The atmosphere and the emphasis is different.

  12. #252
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilCorvette! View Post
    In regards to "C" I just think that the variables listed in "B" would have made it more difficult for opposing 6-7 / 6-8 players to score versus allowing them to consistently shoot over the top of 6-1 / 6-2 Duke defenders. Heck, if other teams are going to score I'd rather make them earn it and not make it seems like they are shooting fish in a barrel...I guess all the whining on my part is because I (and other Duke fans) never got to see enough "C" thus "D" is now pounding us in the gut like a Mike Tyson body punch!
    Yep. See my first sentence. It is extremely hard to have an insightful post on Silent G, isn't it? But we all have strong feelings nonetheless.

    sage

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    South Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilCorvette! View Post
    Seriously, I don't think that Mike G could not have done "any worse" than some of the other players on any given night. However, for whatever reason he wasn't given the opportunity to do so (meaningful minutes not garbage minutes) even in the wake of a Ryan Kelly's injury. If he had so many weaknesses to his game, I'm sure the coaches noticed his deficits during his recruitment? Hence why not redshirt him and allow him to develop versus basically losing a year of eligibility riding the pine. I wholeheartedly bid the guy farewell and hope he find happiness somewhere but I will not spew out sour grapes simply because he seeks happiness elsewhere. Heck, life is wayyyyyy to short to be unhappy whether it's at Duke or some other university. I just truly regret not seeing him have the opportunity to swat away a Black Falcon jumper or flush down a dunk in transition on a UNC's player's head! (I still think he would have been a good match-up against HB and other 6-7 or 6-8 players that wreak havoc on our undersized perimeter players)
    I don't understand why so many say MG "wasn't given the opportunity". From Oct. 15 on, I'm sure there were hundreds (thousands?) of hours spent in PRACTICE by every Duke player. That's where a player showcases his abilities and demonstrates what he adds to the team, either improving his skills or struggling to succeed. MG had his opportunities -- for whatever reasons, he was unable to take advantage of them. I wish him well; too bad he isn't reshirting at Duke next year instead of starting over elsewhere. Perhaps the extra time would enable him to build on his obvious physical abilities.

  14. #254
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    My impression was that K said that the kid would have gotten playing time if he was a better defender. Does that necessarily mean that the kid was not a good defender, had deficiencies as a defender, as many here have concluded? Duke has had a long line of star high school players who were converted to defensive specialists when they got to Duke. Maybe G would have seen playing time had been like them, but, for whatever reason, wasn't. Possible?

  15. #255
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    It's clear that today's highly recruited player wants lots of PT right away, and will often transfer if it doesn't happen his first year.

    It makes me wonder if Kentucky's current run is 100% predicated on all of Cal's best players leaving every year? Getting the best talent, although he claims to not promise PT, may be tied to immediate meaningful playing time. His magic touch seems 100% tied to finding the sweet spot between a huge advantage in talent and a huge disadvantage in experience. After recruiting, his master talent has been creating a system that seasons those raw recruits rapidly, almost like the drugs they shoot into preemies to rapidly mature their lungs. Would he be as effective a recruiter if he didn't generate 3-5 first round draft picks every year?

    I say all of this because it really surprises me that more top 100 recruits don't go the "big fish small pond" route. Why battle for playing time at Duke when you could potentially be an instant headliner at Wichita State or Southern Illinois. Find that young coach on the fast track and basically decide that you and the coach are going to be one-and-done together....you'll get 25 shots a game and be an instant star as ESPN and their 20 college bball writers miss no one anymore, and your coach will show the next big boy school with an opening that he is a winner and a big time recruiter (Illinois comes to mind). I am not saying that's where it should go, it just surprises me that it hasn't gone that way. It's kind of like kids trying to get into the top colleges...is your chance of getting into Duke better if you are at a highly competitive high school with 50 kids shooting for the top 10 schools or if you are class valedictorian with great SATs from some lesser public school that never sends anyone to Duke...in Idaho.

    Terrence Jones came back so he just moved him in on to PF so MKG could play SF and in turn it took Kyle Wiljcher (sp?) out of the rotation for the most part. Kyle was highly regarded and should be a star this year.

  16. #256
    Gotta agree with a lot of the posts on Mike here

    I am really sad to see him go, always sad to see a kid not be all the way happy with his college decision and hope he finds what he's looking for, I hope he's looking for something a little more than playing time, because that's something that can be fixed especially when you're carrying around a 37 inch vert and a wealth of ability like Mike.

    However, I'm not completely with the relentless optimism on Mike. Would I have liked to have seen him get a few more minutes early in the season to see if we could get him more in the groove of the college game? Of course, the problem of too much depth is always one I've really enjoyed. But after a year of practice time, if Mike couldn't crack the rotation at a spot that it was painfully obvious that we were devoid at, then I completely agree with Coach K's decision, he didn't deserve to be on the court. I don't think that warrants a transfer because he has plenty of time left to make it work, but if he wasn't all in on working to compete with Alex and whatever future 3's we may pick up, then the Duke men's basketball team probably isn't the place for him. Always tough to see a smart, good kid leave, and just because he doesn't want to stay at Duke doesn't make him a bad kid or a bad player, but he clearly didn't see the challenges of being a Duke bball player as as much of an opportunity as it was a hindrance to his development as a player.

  17. #257
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The fact that we won a championship does not mean we didn't miss him. He was much better on both ends of the floor than Dawkins and Kelly (the backups at SG and SF that year). Obviously we won the title without him, and that is a testament to the players that were there. But make no mistake, he'd have made us better. And he'd probably have made Dawkins better (by having him come to school a year later). Imagine next year being Dawkins' junior year rather than his senior year.
    I never thought about the ripple effect of having Dawkins come a year later. It definitely would have helped Andre out, as he really wasn't ready his freshman year. If he were going to be a junior this upcoming season, then perhaps we wouldn't be so down on him as far as his development. I also agree that Elliot absolutely would have made us better. Henderson would have made us better too, had he stayed. Would we have won the title with either of these guys instead of Andre? There's really no way to answer that.

  18. #258
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greenville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Coach K didn't agree with you, and he's the one who allocates playing time. Mike Tyson body punch? Next play, already.
    Wow....really...Coach K didn't agree with me? Thanks for the news flash! Heck I didn't even realize I had held a conversation with Coach K and expressed my thoughts. I thought I was merely posting my opinion on a message board. Next play??? Yea right...SMH man...

  19. #259
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    I never thought about the ripple effect of having Dawkins come a year later. It definitely would have helped Andre out, as he really wasn't ready his freshman year. If he were going to be a junior this upcoming season, then perhaps we wouldn't be so down on him as far as his development. I also agree that Elliot absolutely would have made us better. Henderson would have made us better too, had he stayed. Would we have won the title with either of these guys instead of Andre? There's really no way to answer that.
    How would having Dre play a 5th year in HS helped his game now...Coming to Duke he got to practice w/ a national championship D-1 team every day, go head to head against future pros, experience college conditioning and weight training. Alex' situation is exactly the same, what would be the benefit of going to HS an extra year when you can get your experience at Duke, that's a lot of the reasons some are expecting big things for him next rear (warranted or not)...and Dre actually played so that's added game experience. Dre is what he is at this point, I don't think an extra year of HS ball would've changed that IMO

  20. #260
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    How would having Dre play a 5th year in HS helped his game now...Coming to Duke he got to practice w/ a national championship D-1 team every day, go head to head against future pros, experience college conditioning and weight training. Alex' situation is exactly the same, what would be the benefit of going to HS an extra year when you can get your experience at Duke, that's a lot of the reasons some are expecting big things for him next rear (warranted or not)...and Dre actually played so that's added game experience. Dre is what he is at this point, I don't think an extra year of HS ball would've changed that IMO
    I agree that a year at Duke provides better opportunities for development than a year in high school. What I'm arguing is that staying in high school would have pushed everything back, so when he started at Duke he would have been more ready to contribute. He might not be quite as far along right now, but he'd also only be a junior.

    Alex's situation is similar, except that he's taking a red shirt so he will still have four years to develop at Duke. In retrospect, perhaps that would have been a good option for Andre if not for the fact that we needed him so badly right away.

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