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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Thoroughly unconvincing argument. Are any kids projected as lottery picks based on only one attribute? As pointed out, Mason rebounds at a better rate than Sullinger, who is projected as a lottery pick whose best attribute is being huge in the paint. Rebounding is part of being huge in the paint.
    I wish the NBA was as uninterested in me as they are in Mason.
    Ok, you're right, Mason is only not a lottery pick in the NBA because he plays for Duke.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Ok, you're right, Mason is only not a lottery pick in the NBA because he plays for Duke.
    What does that even mean? I'm sorry that you don't seem to be winning many people over with your argument.

  3. #43
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    The NBA is not uninterested in Mason. That's not a guess.

    Mason has to develop a consistent and more varied repertoire of moves on offense, needs to be a more reliable defender, needs to develop a mid-range game, needs to be a better finisher around the basket (more dunks? Yes), and so on and so forth.

    Still, he nearly averaged a double double, and is a superb athlete.

    He's poised to have a Zeller-like senior season. He needs an offseason of development and effort like the one that Thomas Robinson just had. And his stock will rise accordingly.

  4. #44
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    Washington, D.C.

    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    Two things I am reasonably sure of are Mason's "development goals" have already been defined but neither the staff nor Mason are going to post the list on DBR. We all are going to have to push the "I believe" button and move on. I'm excited Mason has decided to return to Duke for his senior season and look forward to him having a stellar season. I don't really care what David Gaines thinks and I definitely don't care what Brad Daugherty thinks.
    Gosh, here I was thinking that the team and the coaches checked DBR for goal and strategy advice.

  5. #45

    What I would have liked to have seen more of

    is the pick and role with Mason and Austin a la Malone and Stocton.

    SoCal

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Ok.

    I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.

    EDIT: Follow-on point, relating back to the article: this has nothing to do with how Coach runs the offense and helps show why Mason is not an elite NBA prospect.
    D-Rebounding was an issue because unless MP1 and MP2 were on the court together we had 4 poor rebounders surrounding one very good to excellent rebounder. The Brothers Plumlee were not the cause of our rebounding woes.

    With respect to the turnovers, not all of the turnovers credited to him are solely his fault. If our guards feed the ball to his shins, taking our 6'10" PF/C and turning him into Spud Webb well he's going to lose some of them.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    What does that even mean? I'm sorry that you don't seem to be winning many people over with your argument.
    My argument is that Duke's system has nothing to do with why Mason is not a lottery pick, or, an elite level NBA talent as his HS coach suggests he should be.

    And then went on to imply that he just isn't that good, and gave as supporting evidence that he is a poor shooter, turns the ball over a lot, and isn't great at rebounding (which it turns out was mostly wrong) and that none of those things have much do with K's offense system.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by IBleedBlue View Post
    Well, the word is on the street now and being talked among high school coaches and former players.
    Baloney! If you want to give me a break down of the heights of the "big men coaches" of say...the top 50 teams in college basketball to support your argument I'll listen. Otherwise it's just an argument put out there like "Duke gets all the calls" that I'm not going to be duped into believing.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorp4me View Post
    Baloney! If you want to give me a break down of the heights of the "big men coaches" of say...the top 50 teams in college basketball to support your argument I'll listen. Otherwise it's just an argument put out there like "Duke gets all the calls" that I'm not going to be duped into believing.
    I agree! I don't have the time or inclination to research the top 50 teams, but looking a few miles down the road, Assistant Coach C.B. McGrath is 5'11" and Assistant Coach Jerod Haase (moved on to UAB) is 6'3". Both guys are former guards who played for Coach Roy Williams at Kansas. The third assistant coach is Steve Robinson but I couldn't find out how tall he is due to my image search on Google not providing images of Assistant Coach Robinson standing in front of a cinder block wall. However, his personal profile over at a Carolina fansite that I am not admitting to visiting includes the following statement:

    Robinson works directly with the Tar Heel perimeter players, helping to mentor Cousy Award-winning point guards Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson.
    It appears Carolina's big men are coached by a former guard who use to play for the head coach. Hmm, sounds familiar...
    Bob Green

  10. #50
    To me the whole issue is not whether or not Duke can develop a big man--clearly they have done a great job with many "bigs" through the years, the issue is whether or not they can develop a back to the basket big man. If you were a high schooler who fancied himself as a more traditional center type who was going to score in that way, would you choose to go to a school like Duke that values the 3 or outside game more or would you go to a school like Carolina who always looks to go inside? In other words if you were Tyler Zeller where would you look to go? If you were a 6-11 guy who fancied himself someone who likes to come away from the basket to shoot 3 pointers, and occasionally drive to score, where would you go? In other words if you were Ryan Kelly where would you look to go?


    I see Mason Plumlee as a player best suited for a back to the basket game which is why he may never achieve his full potential at Duke. Now, that is not to say that K should adjust his system to make room for Mason's abilities.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I agree! I don't have the time or inclination to research the top 50 teams, but looking a few miles down the road, Assistant Coach C.B. McGrath is 5'11" and Assistant Coach Jerod Haase (moved on to UAB) is 6'3". Both guys are former guards who played for Coach Roy Williams at Kansas. The third assistant coach is Steve Robinson but I couldn't find out how tall he is due to my image search on Google not providing images of Assistant Coach Robinson standing in front of a cinder block wall. However, his personal profile over at a Carolina fansite that I am not admitting to visiting includes the following statement:



    It appears Carolina's big men are coached by a former guard who use to play for the head coach. Hmm, sounds familiar...
    Don't forget that Pete Newell, the patron saint of all big man coaches, was 6'2.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    Two things I am reasonably sure of are Mason's "development goals" have already been defined but neither the staff nor Mason are going to post the list on DBR.
    Tru nuff. And they shouldn't HAVE to post it on DBR.. but the point remains this static will be present until the "perception" changes... but how can you change the perception to something you cant openly measure?
    Mr Chicken, meet Mr Egg...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    We all are going to have to push the "I believe" button and move on.
    Easier for me than for a recruit being wooed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I'm excited Mason has decided to return to Duke for his senior season and look forward to him having a stellar season. I don't really care what David Gaines thinks and I definitely don't care what Brad Daugherty thinks.
    Ditto Happy that Masons happy. Hope Cook blossoms and Sheed is ready for Prime-time.
    Gaines - who He? was he the publisher of EC comics back in the 50's? and I thought Brad was the best coach ever at UNC. too bad they ran him off...

  13. #53
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    He's poised to have a Zeller-like senior season.
    That would be quite impressive, although we don't need him tipping in opponents' misses.


  14. #54
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    Arguing the height/size of the big man coach as a factor regarding a players development is just plain...dumb.

    The quality of the coaching is what matters, and I'd argue Mason's big man coach(Wojo) is not the issue. Mason has fundamentally improved, and it looks like he's had good coaching, but he has not been used as effectively, individually, as I think he could have been.

    That decision has to be attributed to coach K.

    Coach K has chosen to play a wing oriented game the past few seasons, with Mason generally at the high post. He has not been the main focus of the offense close to the basket, which is where I personally think the strength of his game lies.

    That's just my two cents, and I respect a hall of fame coach for doing what he thinks was best for his team. He won a lot of games against some very good teams doing it his way, so as a fan, my second guessing of his decisions should be taken with a grain of salt.

    I'd have used his strength and speed to secure the prime real estate on the low block. Own it, like Hansbrough did, and as a better athlete than TH, he could.
    Get low, spread arms, bend the knees and hold the prime spot. He's quick/strong enough to get that position, and any division 1 guard can make that entry pass with the will to do it. I'd have Mason turn and take his shots quickly, power up and draw fouls, even if I sacrificed some shooting % due to his lack of touch. When defenses had to double down, and they would or get dunked on alot, the shooters would have had more space.

    That's what I'd have done from my spot on the couch.

    I don't buy the argument that Duke guards weren't good enough passers bla, bla, bla...sure they are. They are high level, elite guards. What was lacking was the commitment to play to the low post by coach K. He believed his team played stronger from outside in, not inside out.

    I think coach K has played to what he has thought was his teams strengths the past two seasons, and that didn't include a real commitment to Mason in the low post offense. He may have very well made the right decision, because Duke has won a lot of games. Who knows if the style of play I would have liked to see would have won as many games?

    I'd be willing to bet a fly on the wall would report that when Mason made the decision to return in coach K's office, there was a discussion of how he would be used a whole lot more in the paint next season.

  15. #55
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    Charlotte, NC

    Solution: Hire Hakeem Olajuwon!

    I guarantee you Duke would no longer have a perception issue with respect to an inability to develop big men. I can wish, right

    The two recruits' comments below, the Daugherty comments, and what "everyone thinks" (to quote Parker) will be used against us until (1) we make a change and get a big big-man coach, or (2) we have a big man who comes in under the radar and develops into...Kevin McHale (slightly exaggerating to make my point). If we stay status quo then it will be very challenging to get a stud big, imo.

    Tony Parker
    His chief concern is one that Parker says "everyone thinks." "Just the development of their big men is something that concerns me," Parker said... "I really like Duke. I just can't honestly say that I'm 100 percent comfortable with a guard teaching me about the post. Coach [Steve] Wojciechowski is like 5-foot-6."
    http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-...ing-roundtable


    Mitch McGary
    The con for Duke would be the perception that all their big men do is set screens and rebound and that they don’t get a lot of touches.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/...os-d-day-looms

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CajunDevil View Post
    I guarantee you Duke would no longer have a perception issue with respect to an inability to develop big men. I can wish, right

    The two recruits' comments below, the Daugherty comments, and what "everyone thinks" (to quote Parker) will be used against us until (1) we make a change and get a big big-man coach, or (2) we have a big man who comes in under the radar and develops into...Kevin McHale (slightly exaggerating to make my point). If we stay status quo then it will be very challenging to get a stud big, imo.

    Tony Parker
    His chief concern is one that Parker says "everyone thinks." "Just the development of their big men is something that concerns me," Parker said... "I really like Duke. I just can't honestly say that I'm 100 percent comfortable with a guard teaching me about the post. Coach [Steve] Wojciechowski is like 5-foot-6."
    http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-...ing-roundtable


    Mitch McGary
    The con for Duke would be the perception that all their big men do is set screens and rebound and that they don’t get a lot of touches.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/...os-d-day-looms
    Number 2 has already happened though. Williams, Shelden.

    Like I said in the other thread, until a Duke big man averages 15 or 16 ppg or more for the season, the myth will continue. Duke has not had a big come in as a prolific scorer in the past several years. McRoberts averaged 13 as a Soph and had he stayed, would have likely increased that number, but he left. Lance was not a prolific scorer, and neither was Zoubs.

    Next up was Miles, who dominated in practice but could never quite put it together offensively in games. He was a good shooter, and you could argue that he deserved more touches than he got, and probably could have averaged 9 or 10 points per game if he would have averaged say 26/27 minutes a game and gotten more touches. Was he under utilized on offense? Maybe, but even with more minutes and more touches I think his ceiling would have been in the 10ppg to 12ppg. Playing behind Zoubs, Mason and Ryan meant not really getting enough minutes to do that.

    That leads up to Mason and Ryan. Ryan averaged 11.8 this season, and Mason 11.1. Not bad numbers at all, especially for a team that supposedly lives and dies by the 3. Both kids have improved, developed, progressed, etc quite a bit since their Freshman years. I think both can and will raise their averages next year as Seniors.

    To say Mason has regressed is poor form on Brad's part as it's just not accurate. Mason was allowed to try to play as a face up 4 as a freshman and part of his Soph year, but an inconsistent shot foiled that plan. So K switched him to a back to the basket 5, and he now has been playing that role for 1.5 seasons. I think he has come along nicely. I do think he should have gotten more touches, but he could have also done more with the touches he did get. The offensive approach K took this year could have been better in terms of getting the bigs in good position to score, and the guards could have done a much better job of getting Mason the ball in a scoring position. So if you add it all up (Mason performs better with his touches, K tweaks the offense to get Mason the ball in better spots, and the guards get better at getting him the ball in scoring position) and instead of averaging 11.1, Mason averages 15 or 16.

    He is very close to being an All American type player. He just needs to break through that final door and get it done. If we get improvement in all 3 of the areas I mentioned next year, that will be Step 1 in changing the perceptions. Step 2 is for some of these bigs who are highly offensively skilled at birth, to choose Duke instead of turning them down.

    Patrick Patterson would have thrived at Duke. He would have been a perfect fit on offense and defense. Greg Monroe would have thrived at Duke, and Brandon Wright would have thrived at Duke. Had 2 or all 3 of those guys chosen Duke, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But they didn't, so it is what it is.

    Given how the media works these days, signing just 1 of those type big men after Mason's big year next season, and it will change the perception.

  17. #57

    Not to mention...

    Quote Originally Posted by gus View Post
    Don't forget that Pete Newell, the patron saint of all big man coaches, was 6'2.
    that perhaps the most important part of the big man camp was footwork. Since when do you have to be 6-10 to teach footwork?

    But unfortunately, logic seems to have gone out the window on this topic, so maybe the only solution is to have Carlos, Shelden, Elton, and Luol call Tony P and tell him that they developed just fine at Duke.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Arguing the height/size of the big man coach as a factor regarding a players development is just plain...dumb.

    The quality of the coaching is what matters, and I'd argue Mason's big man coach(Wojo) is not the issue. Mason has fundamentally improved, and it looks like he's had good coaching, but he has not been used as effectively, individually, as I think he could have been.

    That decision has to be attributed to coach K.

    Coach K has chosen to play a wing oriented game the past few seasons, with Mason generally at the high post. He has not been the main focus of the offense close to the basket, which is where I personally think the strength of his game lies.

    That's just my two cents, and I respect a hall of fame coach for doing what he thinks was best for his team. He won a lot of games against some very good teams doing it his way, so as a fan, my second guessing of his decisions should be taken with a grain of salt.

    I'd have used his strength and speed to secure the prime real estate on the low block. Own it, like Hansbrough did, and as a better athlete than TH, he could.
    Get low, spread arms, bend the knees and hold the prime spot. He's quick/strong enough to get that position, and any division 1 guard can make that entry pass with the will to do it. I'd have Mason turn and take his shots quickly, power up and draw fouls, even if I sacrificed some shooting % due to his lack of touch. When defenses had to double down, and they would or get dunked on alot, the shooters would have had more space.


    That's what I'd have done from my spot on the couch.

    I don't buy the argument that Duke guards weren't good enough passers bla, bla, bla...sure they are. They are high level, elite guards. What was lacking was the commitment to play to the low post by coach K. He believed his team played stronger from outside in, not inside out.

    I think coach K has played to what he has thought was his teams strengths the past two seasons, and that didn't include a real commitment to Mason in the low post offense. He may have very well made the right decision, because Duke has won a lot of games. Who knows if the style of play I would have liked to see would have won as many games?

    I'd be willing to bet a fly on the wall would report that when Mason made the decision to return in coach K's office, there was a discussion of how he would be used a whole lot more in the paint next season.
    Not sure how many games you actually watched this season to make these comments.

    On plenty of occasions, there was a big commitment by K and the team to get Mason the ball in the low blocks. Unfortunately Mason is still working on all the things you mentioned above (getting position on the low block, making quick and powerful moves to the hoop, and passing effectively out of double teams when they collapse on him) as a result, it was not as significant a part of our offense as it could have been.

    It was not a lack of effort to involve MP2 in the kind of back-to-the-back offense that you are outlining...it was merely the execution was not as good or as consistent as we had hoped.
    Windy City Devil

  19. #59
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    Raleigh, NC
    Wheat,

    Seth Curry led Duke this year with 2.4 assists per game. This was the lowest apg average to ever lead Duke. In the shot clock era, Duke has never had anything remotely close to this astonishingly low total. Seth Curry was playing out of position, Tyler Thornton was in for his defense and Quinn Cook was rehabbing a knee. Duke simply did not have quality ACC point-guard play and that was a large part of Duke's inability to adequately utilize Mason (and Miles) Plumlee.


    Next season? Thornton certainly could improve. But Duke's best bet--IMO-- is a healthy and confident Quinn Cook winning and holding the starting PG spot.

    And none of this is to suggest that Mason cannot continue to improve his ability to get proper position and make quicker and better decisions once he gets the ball where and when he needs it. But he has to get the ball where and when he needs it.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Wheat,

    Seth Curry led Duke this year with 2.4 assists per game. This was the lowest apg average to ever lead Duke. In the shot clock era, Duke has never had anything remotely close to this astonishingly low total. Seth Curry was playing out of position, Tyler Thornton was in for his defense and Quinn Cook was rehabbing a knee. Duke simply did not have quality ACC point-guard play and that was a large part of Duke's inability to adequately utilize Mason (and Miles) Plumlee.


    Next season? Thornton certainly could improve. But Duke's best bet--IMO-- is a healthy and confident Quinn Cook winning and holding the starting PG spot.

    And none of this is to suggest that Mason cannot continue to improve his ability to get proper position and make quicker and better decisions once he gets the ball where and when he needs it. But he has to get the ball where and when he needs it.
    Great post Jim. I watched the Duke at UNC game again last night, and will be watching others in the next few weeks to focus on the post play and passing. Mason was actually far more active in that game than I remembered, and played well when he got the ball in the right spots. But he was missed oh so many times when a window of opportunity opened up. Sometimes he (and Miles) were flat out ignored on those chances, and sometimes the guards saw the opening too late. Even with the barrage of 3's in that game, Mason could have had a much bigger night.

    As you note in your post, the 2.4 number is just mind boggling low. Embarrassing to be honest, and it directly led to fewer chances for Mason, Miles, and to a lesser degree Ryan. We are living in an era where the defenses are consistently better than the offenses in college ball, it is not a simple task to get a big open on the low block, and then get him the ball in the nano second of time that the window for the pass remains open. Guys like Kendall Marshall and Aaron Craft make it look easy, but those guys are rare.

    Even the Taylor kid at Kansas was great at the pick and roll with Robinson. In one of the final four games they ran a pick and roll on the side of the lane, with Taylor come from the corner, off the screen and curling into the middle of the lane. Taylor dropped a beautiful bounce pass right through the two defenders, and Robinson took one step and dunked. I thought man, Mason or Miles would have loved seeing a perfect pass on a play like that. The pass matters. When the pass is there, where the big can easily grab it, the chances of fumbling it or breaking stride goes way down. Duke had no one capable of making those type passes this year.

    If Cook can get healthy, and Suliamon is as good of a passer as he is a defender, it will greatly improve Mason's chances of having a big year.

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