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  1. #1

    Article about Plumlee - totally misses the point

    He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilsince72 View Post
    He has no touch! He can't shoot!
    Pretty harsh. I thought that Mason showed a good jump hook shot with both hands at the beginning of the year. Not his fault the didn't get the ball more, imho. He even shot free throws better late in the year. I look for Mason to have a good senior year. GoDuke!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Pretty harsh. I thought that Mason showed a good jump hook shot with both hands at the beginning of the year. Not his fault the didn't get the ball more, imho. He even shot free throws better late in the year. I look for Mason to have a good senior year. GoDuke!
    Agreed...I think the article adresses "the point" very well.
    Plumlee could be a consistent scorer, but his high school coach told Adam Gold and Joe Ovies that he didn’t think he was going to be a dominant scorer simply because he is a team first player.
    That said: why does he have games where he disappears on offense? Here there are three basic possibilities. 1) defense; 2) ball movement, and 3) confidence.
    As long as he doesn't dribble , Plumlee can indeed shoot the ball. And while making fun of him (or any other big) dribbling is easy, it's also very important to his ability to score...if you are impeded by other bodies from your way from the floor to the rim, your success rate is going to go down. But as jv pointed out, he has a nice ambidextrous hook, and hasn't been too bad from away from the basket straight on...when given the chance. Also, as much fun as it is to poke at his FT's, he's proven there too that he can shoot. He got significantly better as the season went on, so I have no doubt he can actually shoot (even when faced with defender). I think we are going to see more of his repertoire this season as the coaches make him more of a focal point on offense.
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilsince72 View Post
    He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0
    Have to agree this is a pretty basic problem. A great point guard and a faster open-court game would help, too, but we can't count on that.

    Mason would have a much better offensive game if he could hit a jump shot from 10 to 15 feet; that shot has been made available to him by defenses around the league, and he can't or won't take it.
    Now, I don't think this is hopeless and indeed confidence figures into this. Mason has markedly improved on shots around the basket with the jump hook as noted. He made significant improvement over the 2nd half of the season in his free thorw shooting; as others have noted, in warmups he has a relaxed form and hits jumpshots.

    If he can improve and hit some of these short to mid-range shots, Coach K's vision of Mason being an All-American and contender for ACC POY is realistic.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA

    my two cents

    MP2 will not develop a mid-range game, IMO. I just don't see it. His poor FT% coupled with him NEVER attempting a mid-range shot implies that developing this skill isn't going to happen. I'd rather that Plumlee work on his back-to-the-basket and facing-the-basket-from-ten-feet-out rather than working on that shot for only 6 momths.

    What MP2 really needs is consistency. I think this can be achieved through three ways:
    1) Continuous work on his post-up game (obviously)
    2) FT, FT, FT. If he were to shoot 75% this year, his average would have risen by 1.2 points. He needs that shot in his arsenal.
    2) Working with the guards (especially Cook, TT, and Curry) to feed him the ball.

    I really like Plumlee. I see him as a 1st Team All-ACC next year (minimum 2nd Team All-ACC), but he needs to work on that consistency. If he can guarantee Duke 10 points a game (while average 15-16 points), that can be devastating to opponents.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    My hope with all of this negativity is that it not only gives Mason more incentive to develop his game and become the dominant inside player he can be, but also gives the coaching staff the incentive to showcase their ability to develop, and run an offense through, a big man. Perception is more important than reality sometimes and, whether true or false, with the recent comments by recruits, coaches and the media, the Duke basketball program is clearly teetering on the brink of "can't develop a big man." Mason can dispel that with strong scoring numbers. I'm concerned, however, that if he can't develop the inside game that outsiders think he should have, it's going to hurt our ability to recruit big men even more than we've seen up to now.
    Rich
    Cameron Crazies Do Not Storm The Court

  7. #7
    I like Brad Daugherty but I think he is wrong about Mason "regressing" instead of improving. Mason actually improved quite a bit last year in particular. I don't think Duke did a good job getting him the ball in position to score often enough though. Hopefully we run the offense inside out this year to get Mason more shots and also use his passing ability to hit cutters as well as shooters spotting up. I agree with others who have said that he needs to lose the hesitation and power dribble and just go up strong. He seems to have worked out his free throw shooting funk and I see no reason that he can't hit a 15-footer at least as well as Miles did. Hopefully he has a monster year and silences all the critics.

  8. #8
    The article discounts the guard play but that is a big part of the picture. Go back and look at the Lehigh debacle. Yes Mason had a big game statistically, but it should have been bigger. Look at the screen plays and you will see Lehigh's big men "showing" aggressively and our guards almost never passing to Mason when he rolls. If we had been successful with a few of those, the defense would have needed to back off the perimeter and it would have changed the whole game.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilsince72 View Post
    He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0
    Pretty crazy to think that tmw's runner-up for the "Best Team Field Goal Percentage" award can't shoot!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    McRob and Shav 2.0 isn't bad. Wish he had the handle of McRob and the strength of Shav. I wish MP11 would stop thinking he was a guard and have to put the ball on the court with every touch. Plus I wish he would hit the weight room religiously (maybe he is but just can't gain bulk nor strength). Go Devils!

  11. #11

    Misses the point

    In my opinion, to make this discussion about Plumlee is to miss the point. What was once the subject of mild discontent discussed in the cozy confines of Bullocks soon began to appear in mutiple discussions on these boards. The subject often vacillated between how Duke used big men to the annual discussion of the "big man" coach.

    The problem now is that this subject/perception has moved from Bullocks and DBR to the living rooms of recruits, rivals' websites and to the computers and venues of sports personalities (Brad Daugherty). And it is not going away. It was bothersome reading that Mason's high school coach said, " Duke uses big men as screeners, rebounders and defenders." We also saw this in comments from Mitch McGary and Tony Parker. You can bet these are not isolated incidents.

    To launch into another round of posts as to the reality of this also misses the point; this is not just about reality, but perception. And in the world of basketball recruiting, where illusions of grandeur often replace any sense of reality, perception is everything to some.

    This beast is not going to be tamed nor removed by posts, DBR articles or any amount of our futile debates among friends from rival schools. The remedy exist with Coach K. I make no pretense about having a solution, I am not a head coach. However, it seems inevitable, that if Duke wants to be able to consistently recruit a good big man, a strategy is needed to deal with this. A couple of years ago, when the "Duke hate" fever was in full pitch, Coach K made it one of his objectives to take that head on. It is time this "reality/perception" also be taken head on. My guess is he is already at it. Mason will be a good place to start.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilsfan View Post
    McRob and Shav 2.0 isn't bad. Wish he had the handle of McRob and the strength of Shav. I wish MP11 would stop thinking he was a guard and have to put the ball on the court with every touch. Plus I wish he would hit the weight room religiously (maybe he is but just can't gain bulk nor strength). Go Devils!
    Disagree. I don't have an issue with his handle (or his ability to dribble) nor his strength. I have an issue with a) his consistency and b) inability of our guards to feed hi the ball in scoring position.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Dear Brad,

    Stick to stock cars.

    Thanks,
    Chris
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  14. #14
    Is it against board policy for someone with access to post his KenPom efficiency ratings?

    Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from making more than 50% of his free throws?
    Does Coach K's "system" force him to have the 2nd most turnovers (close to 1st most) on the team when he isn't anything remotely resembling a primary ball-handler? (or, allegedly, not part of the offense anyway)
    Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from being below average at boxing out on the defensive boards? (ok this one is definitely subjective... KenPom? I think it's correct though)

    Lets be real, these are things that "elite NBA prospects" figure out - system or not.

    I like mason a lot and think he is a great college player, but just want to be realistic about this.

  15. #15

    Where did Brad go to school?

    Maybe I'm paranoid, but is it just a coincidence that Daugherty's comments come out at the time that Tony Parker has to make a decision? Maybe so, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the Tar Heels aren't out to get you.

    The idea that Mason has regressed is laughable. I disagree that he's McRandolph 2.0 because Mason has a good attitude and keeps improving his game, even though Daugherty has been inhaling too many NASCAR fumes to notice. Nevertheless, there is something to the comment as far as perceptions are concerned since it seems that people are comparing Mason's reputation out of high school to his performance in college, just as they did with McRoberts and Randolph.

    After 30+ years people should understand that Coach K adapts his system to the players on the floor, so when he had penetrating guards and strong inside players, Duke got plenty of points from Shelden Williams, Elton Brand, and Carlos Boozer. When he's stronger on the perimeter, he gets points from the three-point line.

    If Quinn Cook comes back strong and Mason keeps working hard, which I'm sure he will, perceptions will change. In the meantime, Daugherty should start wearing a helmet when he test drives his cars.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Is it against board policy for someone with access to post his KenPom efficiency ratings?

    Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from making more than 50% of his free throws?
    Does Coach K's "system" force him to have the 2nd most turnovers (close to 1st most) on the team when he isn't anything remotely resembling a primary ball-handler? (or, allegedly, not part of the offense anyway)
    Does Coach K's "system" prevent him from being below average at boxing out on the defensive boards? (ok this one is definitely subjective... KenPom? I think it's correct though)
    "Boxing out" isn't a statistic kept by Ken Pomeroy, or anyone else. But you can find that Mason finished the year ranked #32 in defensive rebounding in the country, so the subjective view may not be the right one here.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    "Boxing out" isn't a statistic kept by Ken Pomeroy, or anyone else. But you can find that Mason finished the year ranked #32 in defensive rebounding in the country, so the subjective view may not be the right one here.
    Ok yeah, that is what I meant. 32 is good, but is that efficiency or just overall numbers? Doesn't tell you too much if he just got the 32nd most D-rebounds in the country, given the minutes he played on a top-10 team that is actually not that impressive to me.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Ok yeah, that is what I meant. 32 is good, but is that efficiency or just overall numbers? Doesn't tell you too much if he just got the 32nd most D-rebounds in the country, given the minutes he played on a top-10 team that is actually not that impressive to me.
    Defensive rebounding percentage. Not total rebounds.

  19. #19

    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Have to agree this is a pretty basic problem. A great point guard and a faster open-court game would help, too, but we can't count on that.

    Mason would have a much better offensive game if he could hit a jump shot from 10 to 15 feet; that shot has been made available to him by defenses around the league, and he can't or won't take it.
    Now, I don't think this is hopeless and indeed confidence figures into this. Mason has markedly improved on shots around the basket with the jump hook as noted. He made significant improvement over the 2nd half of the season in his free thorw shooting; as others have noted, in warmups he has a relaxed form and hits jumpshots.

    If he can improve and hit some of these short to mid-range shots, Coach K's vision of Mason being an All-American and contender for ACC POY is realistic.
    It is fairly easy to limit a big man's scoring if his only abilities are either to dunk or hit a jump hook. Many players faced will be as big and as mobile and will force the big to catch the ball away from the basket. We saw this happening in the final four. Sullinger had a lot of trouble scoring against Kansas with two bigs to throw at him. It's not all that easy inside. I also think it is not all about having a guard that can make an entry pass. Having a big man that can hit a shot from 12 to 15 feet out adds a dimension to his game and forces defenses to move a big out to play defense. I don't know if Mason has the nature to stay calm and take mid range shots smoothly. He really has never tried them as someone else has said. The NBA big men, Kevin Garnett for instance, have that feature in their offense and it helps them and their teams, so why not try to develop in that way?

    I think most Duke fans feel blessed to have the Plumlee family filling our big man needs. We are coming up to 5 years and may have a Plumlee starting center for 3 years after that. Mason had very good games this past year and has stayed healthy and with the program. I don't think he has regressed but instead he has improved over the last three years.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Defensive rebounding percentage. Not total rebounds.
    Ok.

    I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.

    EDIT: Follow-on point, relating back to the article: this has nothing to do with how Coach runs the offense and helps show why Mason is not an elite NBA prospect.
    Last edited by Gewebe14; 04-13-2012 at 12:21 PM.

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