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  1. #1

    Article about Plumlee - totally misses the point

    He has no touch! He can't shoot! Shavlick Randolph and Josh McRoberts 2.0

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilsince72 View Post
    He has no touch! He can't shoot!
    Pretty harsh. I thought that Mason showed a good jump hook shot with both hands at the beginning of the year. Not his fault the didn't get the ball more, imho. He even shot free throws better late in the year. I look for Mason to have a good senior year. GoDuke!

  3. #3
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Pretty harsh. I thought that Mason showed a good jump hook shot with both hands at the beginning of the year. Not his fault the didn't get the ball more, imho. He even shot free throws better late in the year. I look for Mason to have a good senior year. GoDuke!
    Agreed...I think the article adresses "the point" very well.
    Plumlee could be a consistent scorer, but his high school coach told Adam Gold and Joe Ovies that he didn’t think he was going to be a dominant scorer simply because he is a team first player.
    That said: why does he have games where he disappears on offense? Here there are three basic possibilities. 1) defense; 2) ball movement, and 3) confidence.
    As long as he doesn't dribble , Plumlee can indeed shoot the ball. And while making fun of him (or any other big) dribbling is easy, it's also very important to his ability to score...if you are impeded by other bodies from your way from the floor to the rim, your success rate is going to go down. But as jv pointed out, he has a nice ambidextrous hook, and hasn't been too bad from away from the basket straight on...when given the chance. Also, as much fun as it is to poke at his FT's, he's proven there too that he can shoot. He got significantly better as the season went on, so I have no doubt he can actually shoot (even when faced with defender). I think we are going to see more of his repertoire this season as the coaches make him more of a focal point on offense.
    Mmmm, BBQ!

  4. #4
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    Boston, MA

    my two cents

    MP2 will not develop a mid-range game, IMO. I just don't see it. His poor FT% coupled with him NEVER attempting a mid-range shot implies that developing this skill isn't going to happen. I'd rather that Plumlee work on his back-to-the-basket and facing-the-basket-from-ten-feet-out rather than working on that shot for only 6 momths.

    What MP2 really needs is consistency. I think this can be achieved through three ways:
    1) Continuous work on his post-up game (obviously)
    2) FT, FT, FT. If he were to shoot 75% this year, his average would have risen by 1.2 points. He needs that shot in his arsenal.
    2) Working with the guards (especially Cook, TT, and Curry) to feed him the ball.

    I really like Plumlee. I see him as a 1st Team All-ACC next year (minimum 2nd Team All-ACC), but he needs to work on that consistency. If he can guarantee Duke 10 points a game (while average 15-16 points), that can be devastating to opponents.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  5. #5
    I like Brad Daugherty but I think he is wrong about Mason "regressing" instead of improving. Mason actually improved quite a bit last year in particular. I don't think Duke did a good job getting him the ball in position to score often enough though. Hopefully we run the offense inside out this year to get Mason more shots and also use his passing ability to hit cutters as well as shooters spotting up. I agree with others who have said that he needs to lose the hesitation and power dribble and just go up strong. He seems to have worked out his free throw shooting funk and I see no reason that he can't hit a 15-footer at least as well as Miles did. Hopefully he has a monster year and silences all the critics.

  6. #6
    The article discounts the guard play but that is a big part of the picture. Go back and look at the Lehigh debacle. Yes Mason had a big game statistically, but it should have been bigger. Look at the screen plays and you will see Lehigh's big men "showing" aggressively and our guards almost never passing to Mason when he rolls. If we had been successful with a few of those, the defense would have needed to back off the perimeter and it would have changed the whole game.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Raleigh, NC
    Dear Brad,

    Stick to stock cars.

    Thanks,
    Chris
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    New Jersey
    My hope with all of this negativity is that it not only gives Mason more incentive to develop his game and become the dominant inside player he can be, but also gives the coaching staff the incentive to showcase their ability to develop, and run an offense through, a big man. Perception is more important than reality sometimes and, whether true or false, with the recent comments by recruits, coaches and the media, the Duke basketball program is clearly teetering on the brink of "can't develop a big man." Mason can dispel that with strong scoring numbers. I'm concerned, however, that if he can't develop the inside game that outsiders think he should have, it's going to hurt our ability to recruit big men even more than we've seen up to now.
    Rich
    Cameron Crazies Do Not Storm The Court

  9. #9

    Misses the point

    In my opinion, to make this discussion about Plumlee is to miss the point. What was once the subject of mild discontent discussed in the cozy confines of Bullocks soon began to appear in mutiple discussions on these boards. The subject often vacillated between how Duke used big men to the annual discussion of the "big man" coach.

    The problem now is that this subject/perception has moved from Bullocks and DBR to the living rooms of recruits, rivals' websites and to the computers and venues of sports personalities (Brad Daugherty). And it is not going away. It was bothersome reading that Mason's high school coach said, " Duke uses big men as screeners, rebounders and defenders." We also saw this in comments from Mitch McGary and Tony Parker. You can bet these are not isolated incidents.

    To launch into another round of posts as to the reality of this also misses the point; this is not just about reality, but perception. And in the world of basketball recruiting, where illusions of grandeur often replace any sense of reality, perception is everything to some.

    This beast is not going to be tamed nor removed by posts, DBR articles or any amount of our futile debates among friends from rival schools. The remedy exist with Coach K. I make no pretense about having a solution, I am not a head coach. However, it seems inevitable, that if Duke wants to be able to consistently recruit a good big man, a strategy is needed to deal with this. A couple of years ago, when the "Duke hate" fever was in full pitch, Coach K made it one of his objectives to take that head on. It is time this "reality/perception" also be taken head on. My guess is he is already at it. Mason will be a good place to start.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by billoz View Post

    The problem now is that this subject/perception has moved from Bullocks and DBR to the living rooms of recruits, rivals' websites and to the computers and venues of sports personalities (Brad Daugherty). And it is not going away. It was bothersome reading that Mason's high school coach said, " Duke uses big men as screeners, rebounders and defenders." We also saw this in comments from Mitch McGary and Tony Parker. You can bet these are not isolated incidents.
    It certainly hasn't helped our recruiting to have coaches and commentators sharing their perception that Duke fails to develop interior players.

    We really need Jabari. That one is gonna be huge.

    s.i.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleIrish View Post
    It certainly hasn't helped our recruiting to have coaches and commentators sharing their perception that Duke fails to develop interior players.

    We really need Jabari. That one is gonna be huge.

    s.i.
    I pointed this out recently and was duly castigated. As stated before, a big coach who is really a big would help;
    Wojo does his best, but that wasn't his position. Too bad his (and Ks, since Wojo is his alter ego) and Ks egos
    are too much tied up in this. Makes it tough to get someone else.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    I think this still helps my point overall -- his game's greatest strength (rebounding) is something he is not "elite" at, over 30 players are better than he is. Offensive rebounding I'm guessing he is a bit stronger, so maybe taking them together there is a different story. However, I think defensive rebounding is more important. Defensive rebounding appeared to me as be a pretty big weakness on this years Duke team.
    Are you serious? Top 35 in the country is anything is pretty elite. But, if you want to look at it another way, Mason is 8th in the country in defensive rebounding percentage if you only count "Big 6" conferences. He's 2nd in the ACC.

    Jared Sullinger is 48th in the nation in defensive rebounding percentage. Mike Scott is 41st. Anthony Davis is 52nd. Tyler Zeller is 181st.

    Give it up. You were wrong about Mason's defensive rebounding prowess. Your guess is also wrong about his offensive rebounding -- he's not nearly as good at that (153rd in the country) than he is at defensive rebounding.

    Miles, on the other hand, was 8th in the country in offensive rebounding percentage (2nd among "Big 6" players). That's pretty amazing if you think about it.


    .
    Last edited by Kedsy; 04-13-2012 at 12:50 PM.

  13. #13
    Blah, blah, blah. Duke can't win with the 3. Duke can't develop NBA players. Duke is too unathletic to win (won it all that year). Duke can't this, Duke can't that. This is just the next train to hop on to draw in the masses. Come on guys, don't fall for it. It's a stupid argument. Coaches are saying it, commentators are saying it, daddy's are saying it...sure they are, they want to say anything to be heard and dissing Duke is a sure way to do it. Just be glad we're still being talked about, year after year after year and enjoy it til Coach K retires cause I guarantee it ain't stopping.

    And can someone please give me a statistical breakdown of the heights for the other big men coaches on top teams so we can put yet another stupid argument to rest I would appreciate it.

  14. This is a touchy subject but I'm gonna throw my two cents in anyway.

    First of all, I agree that Mason has improved every year. It's obvious to me that he has.

    Second, there's absolutely nothing wrong with setting screens, blocking shots and rebounding, that's what all big men should do and know how to do well.

    Third, I acknowledge that at some games Mason doesn't seem to be aggressive enough about establishing position and demanding the ball. That said I've also seen plenty of games where he has.

    BUT

    I agree that Mason can be utilized better.

    He doesn't receive the ball enough and quickly enough in the post, and when he does it often isn't with the best positioning. Look at how Kansas uses their bigs -- their hi-lo plays put their bigs in scoring positions. We never seem to run those kinds of plays for Mason.

    Why does he turn the ball over so often? In part because he's simply not receiving the ball in a good position. A dominant center should never have to dribble the ball for long; it should be two, maximum three dribbles before you're in a position to lay-up the ball.

    Mason is an awesome running big man. But we hardly go on the fast break...in most part because we don't have the guards to do it (post-Kyrie), but that would be one way to utilize Mason more effectively.

    He is also a fantastic passer. However, when he has the ball in the high post how often does another player cut to the basket? Usually we just stand around the perimeter waiting for a pass. Our offense becomes stagnant and Mason doesn't have the chance to showcase his passing skills. Sure, this may not be his fault, but it's another valid instance of how we are not utilizing him to his potential. Mason would be really great in a motion offense.


    I'm sure he'll improve yet again in his senior year, but I'm not confident he will produce significantly better numbers. The source of that pessimism lies in the fact that this past season was supposed to be the year that Mason breaks out, that he becomes a major part of our offense. Yet I think most will agree that at best he played a complementary role in the offense this year.

    7.4 shot attempts isn't very much at all, especially when many of those were alley-oops and put-backs.
    Last edited by ice-9; 04-13-2012 at 01:07 PM.
    http://cornerplay.com - the Shane Battier of tech blogs

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Are you serious? Top 35 in the country is anything is pretty elite. But, if you want to look at it another way, Mason is 8th in the country in defensive rebounding percentage if you only count "Big 6" conferences. He's 2nd in the ACC.

    Jared Sullinger is 48th in the nation in defensive rebounding percentage. Mike Scott is 41st. Anthony Davis is 52nd. Tyler Zeller is 181st.

    Give it up. You were wrong about Mason's defensive rebounding prowess. Your guess is also wrong about his offensive rebounding -- he's not nearly as good at that (153rd in the country) than he is at defensive rebounding.

    Miles, on the other hand, was 8th in the country in offensive rebounding percentage (2nd among "Big 6" players). That's pretty amazing if you think about it.


    .
    Yeah I am serious. Obviously he is a very good college rebounder and, yes, the KenPom numbers show him as better than I thought they would. I admit that freely. However, since I don't have access it was difficult for me to know this in advance. I am considering as "elite" a lottery pick as the concern in the article was with his NBA status. Not college elite. Does being the 8th-best big-6 conference defensive rebounder in the country as a junior make you a lottery pick if that is your best attribute? Clearly not since he was projected as a late first round pick this year.

    I think people are missing the actual point of my post -- mason's (relative) lack of NBA interest has nothing to do with how Coach K uses him in the system. There are plenty of ways for players to show that they are NBA players outside of what offensive system you are in and Mason hasn't done many of them (except, sorry, maybe defensive rebounding.)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Yeah I am serious. Obviously he is a very good college rebounder and, yes, the KenPom numbers show him as better than I thought they would. I admit that freely. However, since I don't have access it was difficult for me to know this in advance.
    Try statsheet. Has a lot of the tempo free stats (although not all), and it doesn't cost anything.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Yeah I am serious. Obviously he is a very good college rebounder and, yes, the KenPom numbers show him as better than I thought they would. I admit that freely. However, since I don't have access it was difficult for me to know this in advance. I am considering as "elite" a lottery pick as the concern in the article was with his NBA status. Not college elite. Does being the 8th-best big-6 conference defensive rebounder in the country as a junior make you a lottery pick if that is your best attribute? Clearly not since he was projected as a late first round pick this year.

    I think people are missing the actual point of my post -- mason's (relative) lack of NBA interest has nothing to do with how Coach K uses him in the system. There are plenty of ways for players to show that they are NBA players outside of what offensive system you are in and Mason hasn't done many of them (except, sorry, maybe defensive rebounding.)
    Thoroughly unconvincing argument. Are any kids projected as lottery picks based on only one attribute? As pointed out, Mason rebounds at a better rate than Sullinger, who is projected as a lottery pick whose best attribute is being huge in the paint. Rebounding is part of being huge in the paint.
    I wish the NBA was as uninterested in me as they are in Mason.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Thoroughly unconvincing argument. Are any kids projected as lottery picks based on only one attribute? As pointed out, Mason rebounds at a better rate than Sullinger, who is projected as a lottery pick whose best attribute is being huge in the paint. Rebounding is part of being huge in the paint.
    I wish the NBA was as uninterested in me as they are in Mason.
    Ok, you're right, Mason is only not a lottery pick in the NBA because he plays for Duke.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gewebe14 View Post
    Ok, you're right, Mason is only not a lottery pick in the NBA because he plays for Duke.
    What does that even mean? I'm sorry that you don't seem to be winning many people over with your argument.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    What does that even mean? I'm sorry that you don't seem to be winning many people over with your argument.
    My argument is that Duke's system has nothing to do with why Mason is not a lottery pick, or, an elite level NBA talent as his HS coach suggests he should be.

    And then went on to imply that he just isn't that good, and gave as supporting evidence that he is a poor shooter, turns the ball over a lot, and isn't great at rebounding (which it turns out was mostly wrong) and that none of those things have much do with K's offense system.

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