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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    Do you disagree that Brazil was the best team in soccer for a number of years and that Spain is now and that they are favored in the tournaments they are in? I have also been to a rugby world cup, one of the many in which New Zealand was favored but didn't win, even though there are really only 3-6 teams in the world that could possibly beat them at any time.


    I have looked at the US roster and agree it is a great and talented team with by far the most talent of any team at the Olympics. I also agree with you that it is not common for a team to be favored vs. the field. What I disagree with is your assertion that the US will win easily.

    For comparison sake, in 2004, the all-NBA teams included 12 Americans instead of the 13 on the current all-NBA teams, the all-star teams included 19 Americans (same as this year, and again 5 non-Americans all from different countries), Yao Ming was the lone non-American starter compared to none this year. Both teams had 2 of the best players EVER (similar to this year, 1 was in his prime and the other was not.) The 2004 team only had 3 all-NBA players and 3 current all-stars, though this young team did have 9 players who would eventually make at least 2 all-star games and this team may not have had as good a coaching staff.

    Yet, even with this overwhelming advantage in talent vs. the other teams in the world, that 2004 USA team lost to Puerto Rico (featuring 2 NBA players), Lithuania (featuring 1) and Argentina (with 1 NBA player at the time.) No US team since that time has won all its games by double digits, and this year's team has already had a reasonably close game vs. Brazil. I hope to see this USA team hitting on all cylinders, but I expect someone to give them a challenge in the semifinals and/or finals, as has happened in every tournament the US has entered since 1996.
    I will absolutely agree with you that Brazil was the best team between 1994-2002 and that torch has now been passed to Spain. But I will not say that Brazil nor Spain won those tournaments easily. As a matter of fact, both teams went to numerous penalty kicks, which is equivalent to flipping a coin. Look at Team USA in 2008. They beat their opponents by an average of 28 points!!! I call that winning easily. Yes - Spain put up a great fight, but even when it was close, I didn't hesitate for a second.

    In 2004, that team was talented no doubt. But why did they bring in Jerry and Coach K? To find better talent? Absolutely not. They brought in the staff to manage egos and play to the team's strengths. If you couple talent like the US has with great management, you have a winning formula. And Team USA knows this. I'm sure Coach K always refers to 2004 and tells the team that you are the most talented team in the world but talent without structure is meaningless. And I'm sure the team buys into that, which is why they're crushing it in international play. Other teams have that coaching ability (Spain, Argentina, and Brazil all seem to have great coaching), but no one compares to Team USA's talent. And because of that, Team USA won in 2004 by 28 points. I will happily make a wager that Team USA doesn't win a game by less than 10 points.

    Basketball, while growing in popularity internationally, is still dominated by American athletes. You cannot say the same thing about soccer or rugby or sports where there isn't one truly amazing team but a collection of amazing teams.
    Last edited by flyingdutchdevil; 07-27-2012 at 01:31 PM.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    I will absolutely agree with you that Brazil was the best team between 1994-2002 and that torch has now been passed to Spain. But I will not say that Brazil nor Spain won those tournaments easily. As a matter of fact, both teams went to numerous penalty kicks, which is equivalent to flipping a coin. Look at Team USA in 2008. They beat their opponents by an average of 28 points!!! I call that winning easily. Yes - Spain put up a great fight, but even when it was close, I didn't hesitate for a second.

    In 2004, that team was talented no doubt. But why did they bring in Jerry and Coach K? To find better talent? Absolutely not. They brought in the staff to manage egos and play to the team's strengths. If you couple talent like the US has with great management, you have a winning formula. And Team USA knows this. I'm sure Coach K always refers to 2004 and tells the team that you are the most talented team in the world but talent without structure is meaningless. And I'm sure the team buys into that, which is why they're crushing it in international play. Other teams have that coaching ability (Spain, Argentina, and Brazil all seem to have great coaching), but no one compares to Team USA's talent. And because of that, Team USA won in 2004 by 28 points. I will happily make a wager that Team USA doesn't win a game by less than 10 points.
    I agree with almost everything you say here and my point was not that Brazil or Spain won the tournaments that it was favored in easily, just that it is not easy to win even if you are the favorite. Brazil did not win a few championships where it was the favorite to begin with. I also agree with you that the difference between Brazil at that time and #2 is much less than the current difference between the US and the #2 basketball country.

    The reason that I would gladly take your final sentence wager is not because of talent, but that there is more than talent involved in individual games; sometimes, teamwork, familiarity with teammates and the international game and how it is officiated, chemistry, luck, etc. can affect an individual game (see the Olympics examples I have cited and unfortunately Duke-Lehigh, upsets happen.)

    Basketball, while growing in popularity internationally, is still dominated by American athletes. You cannot say the same thing about soccer or rugby or sports where there isn't one truly amazing team but a collection of amazing teams.
    I agree, though New Zealand rugby usually only has a few competitors that can match it, was favored in the past however many world cups, but only won the last one, even though their talent level exceeded other teams in the previous 3 World Cups.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by NSDukeFan View Post
    I agree with almost everything you say here and my point was not that Brazil or Spain won the tournaments that it was favored in easily, just that it is not easy to win even if you are the favorite. Brazil did not win a few championships where it was the favorite to begin with. I also agree with you that the difference between Brazil at that time and #2 is much less than the current difference between the US and the #2 basketball country.

    The reason that I would gladly take your final sentence wager is not because of talent, but that there is more than talent involved in individual games; sometimes, teamwork, familiarity with teammates and the international game and how it is officiated, chemistry, luck, etc. can affect an individual game (see the Olympics examples I have cited and unfortunately Duke-Lehigh, upsets happen.)


    I agree, though New Zealand rugby usually only has a few competitors that can match it, was favored in the past however many world cups, but only won the last one, even though their talent level exceeded other teams in the previous 3 World Cups.
    Lithuania absolutely proves this point - probably the best example of how team talent trumps individual talent (interestingly enough, basketball is the most popular sport in Lithuania. This must be the only country where this is the case. In China, it's still soccer).

    There certainly are intangibles as you have listed, but I still believe that US talent will trump all of these intangibles. Plus, like every team, Team USA is still figuring it out. The staff will tweak, the players will learn, and the under-performers known as Love (and...Paul?) will figure it out.

    We clearly aren't getting anywhere with this debate (as entertaining as it is writing it), but I'll finish with a side note: the reason the US is so good at basketball is because they take a very similar approach to how Europeans approach soccer - they essentially groom players at an early age, put them in clubs and teams (AAU, summer camps, other summer leagues, and then college, where basketball is essentially a job), and never stop developing them. While this approach is with basketball done in Spain, Argentina, Italy, etc, soccer still gets 99% of the resources. As a result, the US will always have an amazing basketball team (and, unfortunately, an underwhelming soccer team because this structure is nowhere in place. Side side note: how has the US somehow taken a step back under Klinsmann?).
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

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