2012 Duke Football

[Scorp4me]

Hi,

Were you joking or being serious here? Football recruiting went down, I think, because we weren't winning and we were just not getting good coaching.

GO DUKE!

Yes I was joking, but didn't mean it too critically either. More a "haha" than an "sarcasm" kind of comment.

[Duvall]

Recruiting fell off a cliff (mid 90s) about the time kegs were banned on campus and when ATO and Phi Delt were bumped off the main quad.

*Performance* fell off a cliff in the mid-90s because recruiting fell off an even bigger cliff years earlier after Duke saw a Hall of Fame coach decamp to Hogtown. Once the last of those redshirt seniors graduated, the talent level in the program dropped noticably.

[formerdukeathlete]

Who knew frat guys getting drunk was so important to football recruiting.

Of course, you are free to take sarcastic pot shots.

However, if you think it was simply about opportunities to get drunk that recruits had chosen Duke over Uva, Maryland, Wake, Clemson, when the Football team was housed on the main quad in ATO and Phi Delt, you just don't know.

There were many more opportunities to get drunk at the other schools at the time. These schools had more venues to get a degree with less effort. They were more a party school. This is common knowledge.

When Nan emasculated the Football fraternities at Duke, she came close to killing the Program.

It was much more more about a place to live and have a social life with guys with whom you had a lot in common.


When that was taken away, recruiting plummeted.

[J.Blink]

Duke never had athletic dorms, but we did have a vibrant Greek system, and for decades ATO and Phi Delt were side by side on the main quad. ATO tended to be 2/3rds Football players and Phi Delt about 1/2. Recruits came on visits and saw that the Football team had desirable housing, good commons rooms in these frats and hosted through these frats some good social gatherings.

Recruiting fell off a cliff (mid 90s) about the time kegs were banned on campus and when ATO and Phi Delt were bumped off the main quad.

Good riddance.

[Olympic Fan]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).

Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

[Reilly]

In the Spurrier era, ATO was the football frat. After 41-0, I believe Spurrier and the Mrs. even stopped by for a late-night drink, as the Victory Bell went about clanging deep into the night ... remember Dilweg coming to Wednesday kegs wearing an Oklahoma Sooners Jamelle Holieway jersey ... recall two linemen sort of play wrestling (don't think it was a serious fight) and crashing into a marble stall wall in the bathroom, and the marble wall then fell and sheared off the front of the porcelain toilet, so water starts gushing everywhere ...

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).

Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

I dated in and married into Kappa Alpha Order during the era you described. My memories are not quite as extreme as yours. I also remember some of the stories of destruction that the Phi Delts were responsible for. One particular incident took place at Spruce Pine Lodge up at Lake Michie. A brother with an unusual first name led a charge on the women's restroom and broke down the door with a piece of furniture.

As I got to know many of the brothers, it became clear that most were playing to a stereotype of dumb jocks and wild parties. I remember conversations in which some guys would shared their ambitions and career goals, thoughts they rarely shared because they weren't taken seriously.

[sagegrouse]

I dated in and married into Kappa Alpha Order during the era you described. My memories are not quite as extreme as yours. I also remember some of the stories of destruction that the Phi Delts were responsible for. One particular incident took place at Spruce Pine Lodge up at Lake Michie. A brother with an unusual first name led a charge on the women's restroom and broke down the door with a piece of furniture.

As I got to know many of the brothers, it became clear that most were playing to a stereotype of dumb jocks and wild parties. I remember conversations in which some guys would shared their ambitions and career goals, thoughts they rarely shared because they weren't taken seriously.

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

Thank you for bringing us back to the original topic. The Board of Trustees during the time you and I were at Duke brought in President Knight to take Duke to new heights, a goal still sought these days. My impression was that some of the BOT members were as responsible as President Knight in carrying out the obvious de-emphasis of football at Duke. The Cotton Bowl team had hardly left the campus when this change became very clear.

My intent was to illuminate some of the stereotypes related to particular fraternities. In some many situations, things are not as they appear on the surface.

[jimsumner]

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

I was at Duke around the same time as Olympic Fan and can attest to the accuracy of his statements.

[johnb]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).

Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

I came to Duke in 1977, and my recollection is that the KA's had fairly recently been kicked off campus for a series of incidents that culminated in some (apparently) disgusting violent behavior that I won't repeat online. When I was there between 77 and 81, the football players did seem to join ATO and to a lesser extent Phi Delt, and, as an outsider, their houses seemed unusually rowdy and physical. They also got primo real estate. I can certainly imagine the administration deciding to shut them down in the interest of creating a more intellectual campus environment.

A good friend of mine was at Oklahoma at the time. They dealt with the football issue in a different way. This is OU, of course, a place where the university president once said, "We're working hard to create a university that our football team can be proud of," so hobbling football was never an option. Anyway, they created fancy athletic dorms that were more or less self contained. Now I'm reporting second hand, multi-decade recollections, but the feeling around that very football-crazy campus was that the majority of their football stars were from very different demographic backgrounds from the typical white, middle class OU student, and the de facto segregation was preferable most clearly not to the general student body (which loved hanging out with players) but allowed the predominately African-American players a place to hang out in a relatively homogeneous environment in which they weren't oggled all day by fans. This was a long time ago, back in an era when an OU rival, Texas A&M, had a grand total of <150 African American students out of about 30,000 students, and almost all earned varsity letters in sports. OU wasn't as bad, but, like Duke, it's a lot more integrated now than then.

One more random point about football. Back in the 70's, few Duke sports were nationally competitive. Basketball hit it big in 78, but I don't recall any of the other sports being particularly competitive. Football has lagged during these years, but it's especially lagged compared to a bunch of other Duke sports teams that have become nationally powerhouses in the past 15 years.

Okay, this is a fractious thread, so I'm ready for corrections...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I was at Duke from '72 to '76. The KA's were gone by the fall of '72, kicked off for the infamous quad dog incident, as rumor had it. From the bus stop, the first dorm on the left was a women's dorm, Clelland I believe, then ATO and Phi Delta Theta (or vice versa), followed by BOG. On the right, after the varius Union Building offices, the first dorm was the freshman House P, followed by Phi Kappa Psi in House O, up the steps were the Sig Eps, and independents beyond I believe. I think House G was another freshman dorm, but I don't remember. The ATO's and Phi Delts were primarily football players, and I knew many Phi Delts, playing club football with several of them. The Wootman, who was the Blue Devil in 1974 or 75 and occasionally posts here, was a Phi Delt. He was also a helluva running back!

The drinking age for beer and wine was 18, hard liquor was 21. Kegs were plentiful. From a partying standpoint, whether in fraternities or not, that was the golden age, because you didn't have to go off campus and DRIVE to drink. Or more importantly, return to campus AFTER drinking and get back into a car and drive or ride with a drunk driver. This has been discussed on these boards many times over the years in many threads. The University has to protect themselves from a liability standpoint because of the dram shop laws. How long was the Tailgate thread? We didn't have to "binge drink" before we went out, as so many do now. Wait. I'm digressing. Never mind.

[OldPhiKap]

the infamous quad dog incident

Can anyone here confirm that this actually happened? It's a story I've heard for years but it always came through someone's cousin's former housemate's ex-girlfriend.

[formerdukeathlete]

And the whole point of this colloquy (oooh!) is the allegation by Former Duke Athlete that Nan Keohane, apparently the most powerful destructive force in the history of Duke University, ruined a highly successful football program by consigning the fraternities to places off of the Main Quad and eliminating "Kegs."

Sounds totally laughable, FDA.

How about the decision of President Knight, with the cooperation of the Board of Trustees, to partially deemphasize football by reducing athletic preferences in admissions? Bill Murray then hies off to become the head of the Coaches Association and Tom Harp, with a losing record in the Ivy League (Ivy League!!!), is hired.

Or, the failure, after some success in the Spurrier era, to capitalize on the resurgence of Duke football and put resources into facilities and assistant coaches salaries?

There is a lot of blame to go around. But relegating the jock fraternities to an inside quad sounds like the least of our problems.

sagegrouse

I would suggest you may not have been present at frat parties when recruits visited Duke and gotten their take about what they saw and what they liked, or at least that your experience was limited in this regard.

And, while, yes it is true that for the most part since Doug Knight was President Duke was not in the top 20 or top 25 in Footbal very often or for very long, Duke recruited pretty well (and better than we have or are recruiting today year on year) up to the point Nan became President of the University. Because you make very light of the suggestion that Nan hurt Football recruiting, I would suggest you may not have been following Duke's Football recruiting classes over the years, since Doug Knight.

Tommy Limbaugh pulled in 2 top 10 recruiting classes when he was on staff with Steve Sloan including the 86 class (coming in the fall of 86) which was ranked #5 in the country by SuperPrep. This was Spurrier's senior class which beat UNC 41 - 0. Limbaugh's pitch was this, "Duke is a great school academically. The weather is very nice. Its close to Chapel Hill for dinner and going out. And, the Football team has a heckuva good time with their fraternity parties."

Before Goldsmith took the Duke job he was concerned about whether the Duke Football players had a good time in college, because his Rice players had commented that the lack of a good time was their chief complaint at attending and playing for Rice. Steve Spurrier's son assured Fred that players had a good time at Duke. Then Nan pulled out the rug from under him. And, this killed recruiting, for him, Franks. Roof was a great recruiter. He did his best. He had Yoh to sell and the prospects for a turnaround. He landed a class in 05 ranked in the low 30s, but, without the turnaround, things went south from there. Even with Tom Hart, Mike McGee, Red Wilson, recruiting classes ranked in the 30s were common.

Look what happened under Nan. We went from there down to in the 70s to 80s nationally.

So laugh, if you will. But, what I describe was the reality. There absolutely was a correlation between the decline in Duke Football and Nan's crackdown on fraternities at Duke.

Nan did not intend to try to kill Duke Football. She simply did not understand that what she set out to do would have that tremendously adverse effect.

[budwom]

Dick Biddle when intoxicated (which was frequently) was the scariest human being I had ever seen in action. The fact that his name was seriously mentioned by some as
a potential head football coach for Duke (before Cutcliffe was hired) was preposterous. Too many people remember those days.

I imagine he has changed his ways considerably as I doubt Colgate would tolerate anything like the Biddle of 40 years ago.

[nocilla]

I have no knowledge of Duke in particular when it comes to football recruiting, but I did play a little college football. I went on a couple recruiting visits to some smaller schools in the state and I can tell you that frat parties are indeed part of the process. It is certainly not the biggest factor for kids making a college decision but it can be a big influence for some.

[jimsumner]

Dick Biddle when intoxicated (which was frequently) was the scariest human being I had ever seen in action. The fact that his name was seriously mentioned by some as
a potential head football coach for Duke (before Cutcliffe was hired) was preposterous. Too many people remember those days.

I imagine he has changed his ways considerably as I doubt Colgate would tolerate anything like the Biddle of 40 years ago.

I can also confirm budwom's recollections. In fact, I believe we may have been together on the main quad one Saturday evening after an especially bad Duke loss. Combine anger, alcohol, testosterone and really large human beings, and it can become very unpleasant.

I do think the decline of Duke football beginning in the middle-1960s is a bit more nuanced than Ivy League academics and their disdain for football, although that certainly was a big factor.

There are at least two other factors.

Duke football was at its best in a period with limited substitution, when players played on both sides of the ball and you could dominate with two dozen or so top players. When substitution limits were dispensed with, the equation changed. Specialization became the norm and Duke needed to recruit more good players than it could recruit. It might be a coincidence that Duke stopped winning titles when the game became two-platoon. But I suspect not.

Then there was desegregation. For a variety of socio-economic reasons, Duke simply wasn't viewed as congenial for African American athletes in the 1970s. K only had two black players as recently as 1982, his second season in Durham.

Duke recruited some great football players in those days. Guys like Steve Jones, Carl McGee, Mike Dunn and Billy Bryan could have gone anywhere. Duke just couldn't recruit the depth it needed to be more than a .500 team.

[jv001]

I can also confirm budwom's recollections. In fact, I believe we may have been together on the main quad one Saturday evening after an especially bad Duke loss. Combine anger, alcohol, testosterone and really large human beings, and it can become very unpleasant.

I do think the decline of Duke football beginning in the middle-1960s is a bit more nuanced than Ivy League academics and their disdain for football, although that certainly was a big factor.

There are at least two other factors.

Duke football was at its best in a period with limited substitution, when players played on both sides of the ball and you could dominate with two dozen or so top players. When substitution limits were dispensed with, the equation changed. Specialization became the norm and Duke needed to recruit more good players than it could recruit. It might be a coincidence that Duke stopped winning titles when the game became two-platoon. But I suspect not.

Then there was desegregation. For a variety of socio-economic reasons, Duke simply wasn't viewed as congenial for African American athletes in the 1970s. K only had two black players as recently as 1982, his second season in Durham.

Duke recruited some great football players in those days. Guys like Steve Jones, Carl McGee, Mike Dunn and Billy Bryan could have gone anywhere. Duke just couldn't recruit the depth it needed to be more than a .500 team.

Thanks for this great analysis of how Duke Football declined. I can remember Mike Curtis playing both ways(offense & defense) and doing a great job at each. For whatever the reason for it's decline, I sure miss the good teams that Duke used to put on the field. Getting a great basketball coach like Coach K and the fact he puts a very good team on the court year end and year out sure helped ease the pain of not having that same kind of team in football. However I do think that Coach Cut will build a solid program if given enough time. GoDuke!

[budwom]

I can also confirm budwom's recollections. In fact, I believe we may have been together on the main quad one Saturday evening after an especially bad Duke loss. Combine anger, alcohol, testosterone and really large human beings, and it can become very unpleasant.

I do think the decline of Duke football beginning in the middle-1960s is a bit more nuanced than Ivy League academics and their disdain for football, although that certainly was a big factor.

There are at least two other factors.

Duke football was at its best in a period with limited substitution, when players played on both sides of the ball and you could dominate with two dozen or so top players. When substitution limits were dispensed with, the equation changed. Specialization became the norm and Duke needed to recruit more good players than it could recruit. It might be a coincidence that Duke stopped winning titles when the game became two-platoon. But I suspect not.

Then there was desegregation. For a variety of socio-economic reasons, Duke simply wasn't viewed as congenial for African American athletes in the 1970s. K only had two black players as recently as 1982, his second season in Durham.

Duke recruited some great football players in those days. Guys like Steve Jones, Carl McGee, Mike Dunn and Billy Bryan could have gone anywhere. Duke just couldn't recruit the depth it needed to be more than a .500 team.

Indeed, desegregation played a major role. Things were VERY different then, a real transition point in football in general, and southern football in particular.
Just as an example, I believe it would be fair to say that in that time period, Duke had the best defensive backfield in the ACC...it was stellar (and if I'm wrong I'm sure messieurs Olympic and Sumner will correct me),
and three of the four were white kids: Hannenberg, Searl and Davies. Not too many years later and you'd be hard pressed to find any white defensive backs in the league, much less three genuine all stars.

[roywhite]

Different time frame, different experience.

When I was at Duke in the late 1960s and early 1970s, most of the football players were in Kappa Alpha. They were a real "Animal House" type fraternity, although with a mean edge. They were very destructive and violent on weekend nights when they got their drunk on. Actually, the drinking stayed pretty much under control during the season, but after the last game -- look out! I remember one incident when Dick Biddle and a couple of his buddies set up a roadblock on Campus Drive and hassled guys driving their dates back to East Campus (and roughed up a couple). We thought of the KAs from that era as real thugs. It was normal for the KA's to invade neighboring frats and wreck their common rooms (often stealing furniture for their bonfires).

There were some football players (and most of the basketball team) in Phi Delt during my era. There were the classier guys ... don't remember any problems. In my era, I don't remember many (if any) big time athleres in ATO. I guess it's possible that became the football overflow after Kappa Alpha was finally kicked off campus (I think in the mid 1970s).Personally, I think the decline of Duke football had little to do with fraternities -- the downfall started when Douglas Knight decided to turn Duke into an Ivy League instiution. It's an involved history that largely revolves around unrealistic academic standards (for many, many years Duke could not redshirt) and refusal to pay top salaries or to pay for facilties. McGee did what he did on the cheap ... Butters came up with some revenue that helped Sloan lay the foundation for Spurrier's success ... but starting in the mid-ninties, Duke didn't really get the support it needed from the administration to compete in football. I think that changed with the coming of Cutcliffe ... but it's a darn deep hole to dig out of.

Agree with most of those observations from the late 1960's and early 1970's.

ATO did have a fair number of football players. Leo Hart and Wes Chesson, for example, were ATO's. There were also players at Phi Delt and Phi Kappa Sigma; the real problems did come mainly from KA during that time, and they were disbanded.