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  1. #101
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    No you clarified the difference well but its still your main point...he did it in the summer league so he can do it now. My point is that Andre adequately handling the ball during the summer league does not equate to him being able to do it at Duke during games...Having a tight handle isn't one of those skills that carries over at every level, you might have been considered to have a great handle at one level but not so much playing against more talented/better defensively players. Its not like shooting where if you can shoot then you can shoot...

    Yea I guess we'll just have to disagree...I wouldn't put Dre in the same paragraph as guys like Deuce Bello, Shaq Johnson, JP Tokoto...those guys are great leapers
    No, my point was he practiced it in the summer league, and showed enough ability in that practice, that he should not be afraid to try it in Duke games, and have moderate success.

  2. #102
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    Mar 2011
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    Charlotte, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Duke is a high level div 1 team who plays some of the best teams in the nation year in and out...Summer League ball is no comparison, first no one is playing D for real, 2nd the comp isn't on the same level...I've played pick-up and summer league with D1 guys and pros and held my own but wouldn't sniff a look from Duke...its not comparable IMO.

    OK I won't say confidence isn't a factor at all but the reason he isn't doing it in games is b/c he can't, the intensity and level of play is not even close. That has to cause some confidence problems, Im sure Dre's handle looks as tight as Kyrie to people who can't play but as the talent goes up and those same moves that were blow-byes before stop working you'll definitely get tentative and lose confidence in your ability to do it.

    I've never seen anything from Dre that says he's an above average leaper either, compared to who?!? At his age I could do every dunk I've ever seen Dre do at 5'10...
    In 2011 at the NCAA tourney practice in Charlotte, Andre had some very impressive dunks that showed an explosiveness he hasn't shown in games. Now, a 5'10" guy with a 40" vertical could do those same dunks, but that shouldn't discount Dre's leaping ability

  3. #103
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    Apr 2008
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    Fayetteville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    No, my point was he practiced it in the summer league, and showed enough ability in that practice, that he should not be afraid to try it in Duke games, and have moderate success.
    Of course that takes us back to the issue of the quick hook. If Dre attempts these things and fails, does he get yanked off the court?

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    No, my point was he practiced it in the summer league, and showed enough ability in that practice, that he should not be afraid to try it in Duke games, and have moderate success.
    But the difference is that the level of defense played in summer leagues is much less than that played in D-1 college ball (both in terms of capability and effort). So showing capability in the summer leagues doesn't really mean much with regard to capability in college ball. Dawkins has spent considerably more time practicing against D-1 players at Duke. I'm guessing his lack of confidence in his ballhandling stems from not being very successful with it at that level of practice.

  5. #105
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    But the difference is that the level of defense played in summer leagues is much less than that played in D-1 college ball (both in terms of capability and effort). So showing capability in the summer leagues doesn't really mean much with regard to capability in college ball. Dawkins has spent considerably more time practicing against D-1 players at Duke. I'm guessing his lack of confidence in his ballhandling stems from not being very successful with it at that level of practice.
    I think Newton's point was that regardless of the level of competition, the athleticism is still there.

    For whatever reason, Dre isn't using it.

  6. #106
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    Feb 2010
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    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by CajunDevil View Post
    In 2011 at the NCAA tourney practice in Charlotte, Andre had some very impressive dunks that showed an explosiveness he hasn't shown in games. Now, a 5'10" guy with a 40" vertical could do those same dunks, but that shouldn't discount Dre's leaping ability
    If your calling him an above average leaper and saying he has terrific athleticism then it should...I guess it all perception though, if I couldn't dunk or didn't know plenty of guys w/ superior hops than Dre has shown then maybe i'd be more inclined to agree.

  7. #107
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    Feb 2010
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    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    But the difference is that the level of defense played in summer leagues is much less than that played in D-1 college ball (both in terms of capability and effort). So showing capability in the summer leagues doesn't really mean much with regard to capability in college ball. Dawkins has spent considerably more time practicing against D-1 players at Duke. I'm guessing his lack of confidence in his ballhandling stems from not being very successful with it at that level of practice.
    Exactly...

  8. #108
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    But the difference is that the level of defense played in summer leagues is much less than that played in D-1 college ball (both in terms of capability and effort). So showing capability in the summer leagues doesn't really mean much with regard to capability in college ball. Dawkins has spent considerably more time practicing against D-1 players at Duke. I'm guessing his lack of confidence in his ballhandling stems from not being very successful with it at that level of practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Exactly...
    Right, that's why I stated you could not compare performance in the Summer League to performance in College. I also stated that was not my point. You guys keep missing that because you made up in your mind what I was trying to state. So, throw out every mention of the summer league. (One side bar though: Both of you are dismissing something you have never seen, as meaningless. Some of the games out there when both teams are loaded up with the Top D1 players and a NBA guy or two, can get competitive. The majority of the games are played with no team defense. You get some good one on one matchups where they D each other up strongly, but no team defense approaching the level of college defenses. Now the girls games, on the other hand, are very competitive and similar to real womens college games.)

    But back to Andre. Ball handling is still a skill that can be assessed in different environments, much like shooting. Having seen Andre play, in person, in numerous college games, 3 CTC games, a couple of Duke practices, and the aforementioned totally worthless, meaningless, waste of time league that K must be crazy to let his kids compete in, I have come to the conclusion that Andre can be an adequate enough ball handler, that he should not be afraid to dribble in college games. He is never going to be a great ball handler, but he is not so bad at it, that he would get the ball stolen every time he attempted to dribble against college defenders.

    For whatever reason, he freezes up in games to the point where he treats the ball like a hot potato. I believe that to be a mental issue. You are welcome to both disagree and have the last word, as I am done on the subject.

  9. #109
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali

    Starting lineup with Mason

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    PG: Starter: Cook backup: Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Starter: Curry Backup: Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Starter: Gbinije Backup: Murphy
    PF: Starter: Hairston Backup: Kelly
    C: Starter: Marshall Backup: Kelly

    Kelly coming off the bench can play either PF or C depending on the matchup and game situation
    Dawkins will probably start at SF, but I rather have either Gbinije or Murphy start and rotate for each other.
    Sheed will be a combo guard, but I rather see him primarily at SG behind Curry, instead of PG.
    Hopefully Cook is Duke's starting PG, Thornton is better as a backup.
    Starter Bench
    PG: Cook Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Curry Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Gbinije or Murphy
    PF: Kelly Hairston
    C: Mason Marshall

    With Mason back, Kelly is a starter at the 4.
    Hopefully Duke can add Oriakhi to start next to Mason.
    Jefferson will help in the long term.

  10. #110
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    Jan 2009
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    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    Starter Bench
    PG: Cook Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Curry Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Gbinije or Murphy
    PF: Kelly Hairston
    C: Mason Marshall

    With Mason back, Kelly is a starter at the 4.
    Hopefully Duke can add Oriakhi to start next to Mason.
    Jefferson will help in the long term.
    I believe Kelly Hairston and Mason Marshall are going to be two of Duke's all time greats.

  11. #111
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    Starter Bench
    PG: Cook Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Curry Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Gbinije or Murphy
    PF: Kelly Hairston
    C: Mason Marshall

    With Mason back, Kelly is a starter at the 4.
    Hopefully Duke can add Oriakhi to start next to Mason.
    Jefferson will help in the long term.
    I can also say with great confidence that we will not be adding Oriakhi now that Mason has decided to return. Oriakhi will be going somewhere he can start, and that opportunity no longer exists at Duke.

    I also think it's unlikely that Sulaimon is the #3 SG and #3 PG next year. He's going to play. He's very good.

  12. #112
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I can also say with great confidence that we will not be adding Oriakhi now that Mason has decided to return. Oriakhi will be going somewhere he can start, and that opportunity no longer exists at Duke.

    I also think it's unlikely that Sulaimon is the #3 SG and #3 PG next year. He's going to play. He's very good.
    I agree Sheed is good. He isnt very good though at least not yet. Better than Dawkins (defensively, ball handling) and better than Thornton (scoring, attacking offensively). But he isnt going to start right away. And he is coming off the bench.

    Until Oriakhi decides on a school. Duke is still in contention for him.
    And if Oriakhi decides on Duke, he will start over Kelly.

  13. #113
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    I agree Sheed is good. He isnt very good though at least not yet. Better than Dawkins (defensively, ball handling) and better than Thornton (scoring, attacking offensively). But he isnt going to start right away. And he is coming off the bench.

    Until Oriakhi decides on a school. Duke is still in contention for him.
    And if Oriakhi decides on Duke, he will start over Kelly.
    Oriakhi would not start over Kelly. Kelly is a stretch 4, not a 5. Oriakhi is a 5 all the way. If you thought our offense stagnated without Kelly last year, think how it would stagnate with Oriakhi in there. He's a big body, rebounder and post defender. Not an offensive force.

    He would back up Mason and play at the 5 with Mason for big lineups.

  14. #114
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    I agree Sheed is good. He isnt very good though at least not yet. Better than Dawkins (defensively, ball handling) and better than Thornton (scoring, attacking offensively). But he isnt going to start right away. And he is coming off the bench.

    Until Oriakhi decides on a school. Duke is still in contention for him.
    And if Oriakhi decides on Duke, he will start over Kelly.
    Oriakhi will not be choosing Duke. And if he did, he would not be starting over Kelly. Not in Duke's system. But again, it's irrelevant, because he isn't coming to Duke.

  15. #115
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Oriakhi would not start over Kelly. Kelly is a stretch 4, not a 5. Oriakhi is a 5 all the way. If you thought our offense stagnated without Kelly last year, think how it would stagnate with Oriakhi in there. He's a big body, rebounder and post defender. Not an offensive force.

    He would back up Mason and play at the 5 with Mason for big lineups.
    I guess you missed the games Miles started along side Mason.

  16. #116
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    I guess you missed the games Miles started along side Mason.
    And Miles is worlds better offensively than Oriakhi.

    You must have missed the games with Kelly starting alongside Mason...

  17. #117
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Oriakhi will not be choosing Duke. And if he did, he would not be starting over Kelly. Not in Duke's system. But again, it's irrelevant, because he isn't coming to Duke.
    If Oriakhi, comes to Duke or not. He would be a great addition to the team and a upgrade for the frontline.

  18. #118
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    If Oriakhi, comes to Duke or not. He would be a great addition to the team and a upgrade for the frontline.
    Agreed. But I'm not sure I'd want a guy who seems to be a bit of a malcontent due to the minutes he was getting not getting as many minutes as he wants.

    I'd rather see Hairston and MP3 develop into that guy.

  19. #119
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    Mar 2012
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    Cali
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Agreed. But I'm not sure I'd want a guy who seems to be a bit of a malcontent due to the minutes he was getting not getting as many minutes as he wants.

    I'd rather see Hairston and MP3 develop into that guy.
    How do you know he will be upset for minutes? He is going to have to earn them regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    And Miles is worlds better offensively than Oriakhi.

    You must have missed the games with Kelly starting alongside Mason...
    What makes you think Miles is better than Oriakhi on offense? How about defense?
    Is Kelly better than Oriakhi at rebounding?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    How do you know he will be upset for minutes? He is going to have to earn them regardless.
    I think he is referring to the fact that Oriakhi was reported complaining about minutes this past season, and didn't like sharing time with Andre Drummond. I suspect he wants to go some place where he will be "the guy".

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