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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    OK, I went back 15 years, looking at every rotation player (or starter) at Duke who had a senior year and compared their senior season to their junior season, to see if seniors generally improve or stay more or less the same. I compared per game statistics and then made a qualitative analysis. So if a senior played a lot more minutes then he will look good in this chart, but that's sort of what we're talking about here so it made sense to me.

    I may have missed somebody, but I counted 26 Duke seniors from 1998 to 2012:

    Senior year a lot worse than junior year: 4 (Greg Paulus, Nick Horvath, Lee Melchionni, Ricky Price)

    Senior year a little worse than junior year, but still in the same ballpark: 2 (Kyle Singler, Steve Wojciechowski)

    Senior year a little better than junior year, but still in the same ballpark: 5 (DeMarcus Nelson, Chris Duhon, Sean Dockery, Taymon Domzalski, Nate James)

    Senior year a LOT better than junior year: 15 (Miles Plumlee, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, Dave McLure, JJ Redick, Shelden Williams, Casey Sanders, Dahntay Jones, Daniel Ewing, Shane Battier, Chris Carrawell, Trajan Langdon, Roshown McLeod)


    Obviously some of this is subjective, but I conclude that there's a pretty good chance that our seniors next season make a "jump" and will put up significantly better numbers than they did this season.
    Thanks for doing the research. Kedsy. Marty may qyualify but may have been hurt the prior year.

    Though hard to show quantitatively, the other thing that happens with each year in the Duke system is their defense and their consitency improves. Seniors know best when to rotate and they have been in every ACC opponent's gym at least once and usually about 3 or more times.

    Depending on what happens with Mason, Duke could be in the position only mid-majors are in having potentially 4 senior starters, with Seth actually in his fifth year.

    So unless a Shabazz comes on board in limelight like a Kyrie or Austin, the nucleus would be the seniors:

    Mason at center if he returns, or the senior Oriakhi? possibly if Mason goes and Tony Parker does not join first. Seemsl ike Tony will decide before Alex. Not sure which of the two Duke would prefer but go with the sure thing.

    Ryan at PF unless he has to play center if Mason goes and no Parker nor Oriakhi.

    Dre at a guard spot, possibly a 3 guard lineup. He's just too much of a weapon when he's on, not to leverage him his final year, and hope his senior maturity leads to consistently good rather than consistently inconsistent. Coach K has plenty of weapons if Dre does nto do his part Alex/Mike/Sheed plus possibly Amile?/Trey?.

    Seth at a guard spot, either SG or PG depending on who the fifth starter is.

    If Ryan has to defend at center and spread the floor on Offense, then I would think Duke would need the height and have Alex and Mike (or Amile) at the two forward spots with Josh in reserve capacity as more traditional PF as MP3 is at center, relegating Seth to PG.

    The defense has to start with the bigs and work its way down but still play the best 5 which would exclude MP3 and Josh most likely.

    If Mason is at center (or Oriakhi or Parker) the Ryan is the spread the floor PF he has been.

    Dre and Seth are two of the guards and then a decision whehter to go with a traditional PG Quinn or Tyler or to go with a traditional SF Alex or Mike (or Amile or Trey if eleigible a no decision if it's Shabazz).

    This could aslo vary by opponent sometimes being Mason-Ryan-Dre-Seth and Quinn/Tyler.
    At other times Mason - Ryan - Alex/Mike (or Amile?/Trey?) - Dre - Seth

    Having seniors is a big advantage as evidenced by FSU winning 4 out of 5 versus Duke (2-1) and UNC (2-0). With the presure to go pro early typically these seniors are not lottery pick type of guys but still very experieinced relative to hot shots who were in HS the prior year, and quite often first or second round NBA draftee candidates.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragoneye776 View Post
    Great list! Someone should show that to Mason Plumlee.
    Someone should show that list to Andre and Seth.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Well, McClure's rebounding and assists also doubled and, as I said earlier, for our purposes it's not necessarily a counter-argument that a player's minutes went up because some people are arguing that Seth's and Andre's minutes will go down. Also, having seen both senior years recently, I think it's really hard to argue against the statement that Lance and Miles both significantly improved from their junior season to their senior season.

    Nolan's numbers went from 17.4/2.8/3.0 as a junior to 20.6/4.5/5.1 as a senior. His sophomore to junior jump was big too, but that's a pretty huge junior to senior jump, at least that's the way I see it. Obviously this is a pretty subjective topic, so feel free to disagree.
    McClure most definitely didn't get better, even in a subjective sense. Compare his sophomore stats to his senior stats. He was more productive as a sophomore than he was as a senior. So in his case his bump in stats were entirely minutes based. I think you've taken some liberties with the term "a LOT better" in the cases of McClure, Thomas, and Miles.

    That being said, it is certainly much more common that a player gets more productive than that he gets less productive.

  4. #84
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    With only the current players on the roster, not including Mason

    PG: Starter: Cook backup: Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Starter: Curry Backup: Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Starter: Gbinije Backup: Murphy
    PF: Starter: Hairston Backup: Kelly
    C: Starter: Marshall Backup: Kelly

    Kelly coming off the bench can play either PF or C depending on the matchup and game situation
    Dawkins will probably start at SF, but I rather have either Gbinije or Murphy start and rotate for each other.
    Sheed will be a combo guard, but I rather see him primarily at SG behind Curry, instead of PG.
    Hopefully Cook is Duke's starting PG, Thornton is better as a backup.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    PG: Starter: Cook backup: Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Starter: Curry Backup: Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Starter: Gbinije Backup: Murphy
    PF: Starter: Hairston Backup: Kelly
    C: Starter: Marshall Backup: Kelly

    Kelly coming off the bench can play either PF or C depending on the matchup and game situation
    Dawkins will probably start at SF, but I rather have either Gbinije or Murphy start and rotate for each other.
    Sheed will be a combo guard, but I rather see him primarily at SG behind Curry, instead of PG.
    Hopefully Cook is Duke's starting PG, Thornton is better as a backup.
    I can say with a great eal of confidence that this will not be the lineup next year.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I can say with a great eal of confidence that this will not be the lineup next year.
    Same here. Despite the indefiniteness that's implicit in the words "Premature speculation," any projected starting lineup without Curry or Kelly is, to me, a little bit silly.

    I would love for Andre to start, but the problem with him is that his handle isn't good enough to warrant heavy minutes at the 2 and he's too small to warrant heavy minutes at the 3. During his sophomore year, the team could afford to start him at the 2 for a few games because Kyle could serve as a competent second ballhandler when necessary. If Andre does get significant minutes at the 2, I'm wondering if Alex or Michael could adequately help with ballhandling. Or, hopefully, Andre can get strong enough with the ball to the point where he can handle backcourt ball pressure and not just pass the ball off like a hot potato.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by wk2109 View Post
    Same here. Despite the indefiniteness that's implicit in the words "Premature speculation," any projected starting lineup without Curry or Kelly is, to me, a little bit silly.

    I would love for Andre to start, but the problem with him is that his handle isn't good enough to warrant heavy minutes at the 2 and he's too small to warrant heavy minutes at the 3. During his sophomore year, the team could afford to start him at the 2 for a few games because Kyle could serve as a competent second ballhandler when necessary. If Andre does get significant minutes at the 2, I'm wondering if Alex or Michael could adequately help with ballhandling. Or, hopefully, Andre can get strong enough with the ball to the point where he can handle backcourt ball pressure and not just pass the ball off like a hot potato.
    Agree with you on Kelly and Curry but FSU on Feb 23 would disagree with you on Dre.

    http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320540052

    I know you can point to just as many box scores where Dre was on 0-for, but why throw a 3 year investment down the drain. Many wanted to do with same with Zoubs.

    Duke should start at least 3 seniors. Whether the third is Mason or Dre depends on Mason's decision this week.

    Starting 4 seniors is something usually restricted to mid-majors and can be a huge advantage.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    Agree with you on Kelly and Curry but FSU on Feb 23 would disagree with you on Dre.

    http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320540052

    I know you can point to just as many box scores where Dre was on 0-for, but why throw a 3 year investment down the drain. Many wanted to do with same with Zoubs.

    Duke should start at least 3 seniors. Whether the third is Mason or Dre depends on Mason's decision this week.

    Starting 4 seniors is something usually restricted to mid-majors and can be a huge advantage.
    I don't think Andre's ability to explode for 6+ threes three times per season means he should be starting. I'm not saying he shouldn't be getting significant minutes, but starting him at the 2 potentially gives you 4 non-ballhandlers on the court. A 2-guard should be able to give you much more ballhandling than Andre has shown he can give. And there has been more than enough discussion on these boards about Andre starting at the 3.

    I think Andre should be able to play 20-25 min at the 2/3, perhaps more at the 3. Coming off the bench as the third guard would probably give him more favorable offensive and defensive matchups than starting would.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACCBBallFan View Post
    Agree with you on Kelly and Curry but FSU on Feb 23 would disagree with you on Dre.

    http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320540052

    I know you can point to just as many box scores where Dre was on 0-for, but why throw a 3 year investment down the drain. Many wanted to do with same with Zoubs.

    Duke should start at least 3 seniors. Whether the third is Mason or Dre depends on Mason's decision this week.

    Starting 4 seniors is something usually restricted to mid-majors and can be a huge advantage.
    I have been a staunch supporter and huge fan of Andre since he came in, but I have reached the point where guys like you and Kedsy will need to convince me he can in fact be a valuable, consistent performer. This past season was a huge disappointment for me. I honestly can't recall seeing a more confusing, conflicting player in all my years of watching Duke hoops. The Andre that lit up Mich St for 26 was not a standstill catch and shoot player. He hit really tough shots that night, coming off screens with a defender hanging all over him, and he was lethal. That game sticks out for me moreso than the Wake and FSU games. The shot against Belmont was huge too, and he played strong down the stretch in the Kansas game, hitting another huge 3, that as someone earlier opined, was overshadowed by the two Thornton 3's.

    That Andre, combined with the Ryan Kelly we saw in Maui, made Duke a top 5 team. The 0-for Andre, brought Duke down a few notches. With his hops and strength, Andre should be getting 2 to 3 dunks a game. He had a few drives from the baseline or wing this year, where the path to the rim was clear except for a weak side defender rotating over, and even with a full head of steam, each and every time, Andre slowed his pace and went up weakly. Sometimes drawing the foul, sometimes not. Very frustrating to see. I wanted to just will him into attempting to dunk hard, or taking hard directly to the defenders chest to insure the foul call. It never happened.

    I also watched him last summer work very hard on his ball handling, and taking it to the rim to do what I described above on drives. He did it numerous times. Sadly, he did not gain enough confidence practicing those drives, and the ball handling in the Summer League to try to do those things in Duke games. He treated the ball like a hot potato so badly during the season, that when the PG brought the ball up, you knew for certain he was going to the wingman opposite of Andre every time to start the set. Which meant the defense always knew exactly where the set would start from.

    I love the kid, and want him so badly to play consistently well, but I am close to losing hope that he will ever put it together. While he isn't a great ball handler, he is much better than he shows in College games. It comes down to confidence and lack of faith in his ball handling abilities. The driving thing is confidence as well, and possibly a fear of getting hurt attacking the rim.

    Add it all up, and it becomes "The Curious Case Of Andre Dawkins". There is a lot of talent there. I see no reason why he cannot be an above average college player. Yet, at this point he isn't and he only has one chance left.

    I want Andre to have a great Sr year, but at this point, I will not be surprised if it does not happen.
    I strongly feel that thats not a basketball issue. Im in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And its not a basketball issue.
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. I think it varies on a coach, he said. I mean, Im pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And its not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. Its a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    With his hops and strength, Andre should be getting 2 to 3 dunks a game.
    I hope this isn't considered too nitpicky, but I find most people have a poor intuition for what players should average in college basketball games, and it leads to silly expectations.

    Mason Plumlee had 60 dunks last season. That's about 1.75 dunks per game. And that was the single-season record at Duke.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    I have been a staunch supporter and huge fan of Andre since he came in, but I have reached the point where guys like you and Kedsy will need to convince me he can in fact be a valuable, consistent performer. This past season was a huge disappointment for me. I honestly can't recall seeing a more confusing, conflicting player in all my years of watching Duke hoops. The Andre that lit up Mich St for 26 was not a standstill catch and shoot player. He hit really tough shots that night, coming off screens with a defender hanging all over him, and he was lethal. That game sticks out for me moreso than the Wake and FSU games. The shot against Belmont was huge too, and he played strong down the stretch in the Kansas game, hitting another huge 3, that as someone earlier opined, was overshadowed by the two Thornton 3's.

    That Andre, combined with the Ryan Kelly we saw in Maui, made Duke a top 5 team. The 0-for Andre, brought Duke down a few notches. With his hops and strength, Andre should be getting 2 to 3 dunks a game. He had a few drives from the baseline or wing this year, where the path to the rim was clear except for a weak side defender rotating over, and even with a full head of steam, each and every time, Andre slowed his pace and went up weakly. Sometimes drawing the foul, sometimes not. Very frustrating to see. I wanted to just will him into attempting to dunk hard, or taking hard directly to the defenders chest to insure the foul call. It never happened.

    I also watched him last summer work very hard on his ball handling, and taking it to the rim to do what I described above on drives. He did it numerous times. Sadly, he did not gain enough confidence practicing those drives, and the ball handling in the Summer League to try to do those things in Duke games. He treated the ball like a hot potato so badly during the season, that when the PG brought the ball up, you knew for certain he was going to the wingman opposite of Andre every time to start the set. Which meant the defense always knew exactly where the set would start from.

    I love the kid, and want him so badly to play consistently well, but I am close to losing hope that he will ever put it together. While he isn't a great ball handler, he is much better than he shows in College games. It comes down to confidence and lack of faith in his ball handling abilities. The driving thing is confidence as well, and possibly a fear of getting hurt attacking the rim.

    Add it all up, and it becomes "The Curious Case Of Andre Dawkins". There is a lot of talent there. I see no reason why he cannot be an above average college player. Yet, at this point he isn't and he only has one chance left.

    I want Andre to have a great Sr year, but at this point, I will not be surprised if it does not happen.
    I echo Wander's comments about what is realistic regarding dunks. But aside from that, I agree with this post.

    Dawkins clearly has a wonderful shooting stroke and terrific athleticism. If he could handle the ball confidently he would be lethal. But for whatever reason, he hasn't really progressed. If anything, he regressed a little this past year (FG% dropped 8 points, 3pt% dropped 3.5 points, FT% dropped 5.2 points). I'd love to see him really find his game as a senior. If he does so, he can be an absolute star. But he hasn't done it yet, and I'm losing confidence that he'll do it at all. And next year he'll be competing with (at least) Gbinije and Murphy - two talented prospects who now have a year of physical development and experience with the system for minutes at SF. At SG, he's competing with an All-ACC senior and a VERY talented freshman, and he just doesn't have the ballhandling skills to play the SG at the college level (you need at least two strong ballhandlers unless you have a transcendent PG).

    I certainly won't rule Dawkins out as a starter and star. His size, athleticism, and shooting ability are such that he can be an impact player. But as of now I see him like a Ben Gordon/Vinnie Johnson (minus the ballhandling skills) player as a 6th man, instant offense guy. When he's on, he comes in and lights it up. When he's off, you just take him out and play your other SG and SF. If Sulaimon, Gbinije, and Murphy are ready for the responsibility of being regulars, I think this could be an excellent arrangement.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    I hope this isn't considered too nitpicky, but I find most people have a poor intuition for what players should average in college basketball games, and it leads to silly expectations.

    Mason Plumlee had 60 dunks last season. That's about 1.75 dunks per game. And that was the single-season record at Duke.
    Fair point. Poor form on my part. Throw out the number, and a more fair statememt, is "With his hops, Andre should be getting more dunks".
    I strongly feel that thats not a basketball issue. Im in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And its not a basketball issue.
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. I think it varies on a coach, he said. I mean, Im pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And its not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. Its a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  13. #93
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    With his athleticism and stroke, Dawkins should be a more consistent and valuable offensive weapon.

    But the body only goes where the mind leads. Andre's mental game needs more work than his physical game, IMO.

  14. #94
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    I don't know if this is putting Andre down, definitely not my intentions but to be fair Im starting to think a lot of our expectations for Dre were kind of far fetched.....When you actually break down his game there's not a lot there. He has a superb stroke from 3, when he's on it's a site to see, arguably one of the best shooters in CBB...but outside of that there isn't much more....He's never been a ball handler not even in HS, its not a lack of confidence in his ability, its a lack of ability...he doesn't have much of a pull up game, im sure that's compounded by the fact that he rarely puts the ball on the floor. I keep seeing people rave about this terrific athleticism and I just don't see it...he doesn't have jump out of the gym hops, he's extremely slow-footed laterally, and not very quick at all.

    I was super high on Dre coming into Duke and thought by last year he would've been an All ACC guy, he honestly just has that look to him...unfortunately that hasn't happen and he's running out of time....I hope he feels that urgency and wants to leave his mark on the program this year but maybe it's just not in him. If it isn't, I honestly have no problem w/ all his minutes going to Mike/Alex.....

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    I don't know if this is putting Andre down, definitely not my intentions but to be fair Im starting to think a lot of our expectations for Dre were kind of far fetched.....When you actually break down his game there's not a lot there. He has a superb stroke from 3, when he's on it's a site to see, arguably one of the best shooters in CBB...but outside of that there isn't much more....He's never been a ball handler not even in HS, its not a lack of confidence in his ability, its a lack of ability...he doesn't have much of a pull up game, im sure that's compounded by the fact that he rarely puts the ball on the floor. I keep seeing people rave about this terrific athleticism and I just don't see it...he doesn't have jump out of the gym hops, he's extremely slow-footed laterally, and not very quick at all.

    I was super high on Dre coming into Duke and thought by last year he would've been an All ACC guy, he honestly just has that look to him...unfortunately that hasn't happen and he's running out of time....I hope he feels that urgency and wants to leave his mark on the program this year but maybe it's just not in him. If it isn't, I honestly have no problem w/ all his minutes going to Mike/Alex.....
    I will respectfully disagree on a couple of points. Like I said earlier, he is not a great ball handler, but he is better than what he shows in Duke games. His jumping ability is exceptional as well. The Summer League is no comparison in terms of a real college game, but it doesn't have to be when you are looking at skills like ball handling, and attacking the rim. By design, Andre played PG for his team last summer, and thus handled the ball a lot. He hit numerous shots pulling up off the dribble. He also attacked the basket off the dribble and drew a ton of fouls. In Duke games, he rarely, or almost never, even attempted to do those things. The only logical reason to me is confidence.

    To be clear, I am not suggesting in any way that his performance in Duke games should match his performance in the summer league. Total different world. What I am saying is that he worked hard on his weaknesses, showed the ability to dribble on the perimeter, and attack the basket aggressively, but when the real games started, for whatever reason, he rarely ever tried to do the things he had worked on all summer.

    I agree he lacks lateral quickness, which hurts him on defense. I do think he is an above average leaper, so we disagree there.

    I agree with Mike Corey that much of the problem is between his ears.
    I strongly feel that thats not a basketball issue. Im in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And its not a basketball issue.
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. I think it varies on a coach, he said. I mean, Im pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And its not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. Its a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    I will respectfully disagree on a couple of points. Like I said earlier, he is not a great ball handler, but he is better than what he shows in Duke games. His jumping ability is exceptional as well. The Summer League is no comparison in terms of a real college game, but it doesn't have to be when you are looking at skills like ball handling, and attacking the rim. By design, Andre played PG for his team last summer, and thus handled the ball a lot. He hit numerous shots pulling up off the dribble. He also attacked the basket off the dribble and drew a ton of fouls. In Duke games, he rarely, or almost never, even attempted to do those things. The only logical reason to me is confidence.

    To be clear, I am not suggesting in any way that his performance in Duke games should match his performance in the summer league. Total different world. What I am saying is that he worked hard on his weaknesses, showed the ability to dribble on the perimeter, and attack the basket aggressively, but when the real games started, for whatever reason, he rarely ever tried to do the things he had worked on all summer.

    I agree he lacks lateral quickness, which hurts him on defense. I do think he is an above average leaper, so we disagree there.

    I agree with Mike Corey that much of the problem is between his ears.

    Duke is a high level div 1 team who plays some of the best teams in the nation year in and out....Summer League ball is no comparison, first no one is playing D for real, 2nd the comp isn't on the same level....I've played pick-up and summer league with D1 guys and pros and held my own but wouldn't sniff a look from Duke....its not comparable IMO.

    OK I won't say confidence isn't a factor at all but the reason he isn't doing it in games is b/c he can't, the intensity and level of play is not even close. That has to cause some confidence problems, Im sure Dre's handle looks as tight as Kyrie to people who can't play but as the talent goes up and those same moves that were blow-byes before stop working you'll definitely get tentative and lose confidence in your ability to do it.

    I've never seen anything from Dre that says he's an above average leaper either, compared to who?!? At his age I could do every dunk I've ever seen Dre do at 5'10...

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Chill View Post
    PG: Starter: Cook backup: Thornton, Sheed
    SG: Starter: Curry Backup: Dawkins, Sheed
    SF: Starter: Gbinije Backup: Murphy
    PF: Starter: Hairston Backup: Kelly
    C: Starter: Marshall Backup: Kelly

    Kelly coming off the bench can play either PF or C depending on the matchup and game situation
    Dawkins will probably start at SF, but I rather have either Gbinije or Murphy start and rotate for each other.
    Sheed will be a combo guard, but I rather see him primarily at SG behind Curry, instead of PG.
    Hopefully Cook is Duke's starting PG, Thornton is better as a backup.
    While I honestly doubt we'll see such a starting line-up I would never be so foolish as to say it never could happen. You would think that some people would have learned from what happened this past season and they would have realized that anything could happen if the cards fall a certain way.

    I can certainly envision this possible scenario:

    Quinn's knee is 100% healthy and he makes dramatic improvement on the defensive end of the court. With his offensive skillset he gets the nod over Tyler, as Coach K decides to install a very uptempo offense.

    Seth has learned from this past season what it takes to be the go to guy and relishes in the role for his final season at Duke.

    Silent G. with a year under his belt now has the confidence and experience to play in an uptempo offense, which I mentioned above. His physical tools give him a decided edge over Dre.

    Josh can run the court and the toughness he brings to the table negates the loss of Miles and Mason (if Mason does leave). Ryan's lack of offseason conditioning and lack of playing time in the new uptempo offense due to his foot injury has him behined Josh at the start of the season.

    Marshall does indeed get the start at center if Mason does go.

    Again, I doubt things will playout like this, but you never know and I'd rather admit it's possible than have to backtrack and eat crow.

    We'll know a lot more by the end of this week (hopefully).

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcar1985 View Post
    Duke is a high level div 1 team who plays some of the best teams in the nation year in and out....Summer League ball is no comparison, first no one is playing D for real, 2nd the comp isn't on the same level....I've played pick-up and summer league with D1 guys and pros and held my own but wouldn't sniff a look from Duke....its not comparable IMO.

    OK I won't say confidence isn't a factor at all but the reason he isn't doing it in games is b/c he can't, the intensity and level of play is not even close. That has to cause some confidence problems, Im sure Dre's handle looks as tight as Kyrie to people who can't play but as the talent goes up and those same moves that were blow-byes before stop working you'll definitely get tentative and lose confidence in your ability to do it.

    I've never seen anything from Dre that says he's an above average leaper either, compared to who?!? At his age I could do every dunk I've ever seen Dre do at 5'10...
    Even though I clarified it as clearly as I could, you still hit me with the "Summer League is no comparison"? I stated that upfront.

    The point was Andre played the point which meant he had to handle the ball a lot (he was not working on PG skills, it was just to insure he had to dribble the ball a lot the entire game vs just hanging out on the wing) and he showed that he actually can dribble the ball adequately. It is not a strong point, but he is good enough that he should not be afraid to put the ball on the floor in Duke games. Yet he is. It's confidence/mental.

    If you can't see how good of a leaper Andre is, then we will have to just disagree on that. If you want a comparison from this years team, Andre and Austin are roughly the same height, and Andre is a far better leaper than Austin is. Andre won the dunk contest at CTC two years in a row and showed great hops in doing so. If you could match the dunks he threw down in those contests at 5'10, then my hats off to you. Are you Spud Webb by chance?
    I strongly feel that thats not a basketball issue. Im in charge of the basketball program as much the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be. And its not a basketball issue.
    Williams said, he is aware of the classes that his players take. I think it varies on a coach, he said. I mean, Im pretty aware of what our guys are doing. And its not a basketball issue, guys. It is not a basketball issue. Its a university issue.
    Roy Williams 2012

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncexnyc View Post
    While I honestly doubt we'll see such a starting line-up I would never be so foolish as to say it never could happen. You would think that some people would have learned from what happened this past season and they would have realized that anything could happen if the cards fall a certain way.

    I can certainly envision this possible scenario:

    Quinn's knee is 100% healthy and he makes dramatic improvement on the defensive end of the court. With his offensive skillset he gets the nod over Tyler, as Coach K decides to install a very uptempo offense.

    Seth has learned from this past season what it takes to be the go to guy and relishes in the role for his final season at Duke.

    Silent G. with a year under his belt now has the confidence and experience to play in an uptempo offense, which I mentioned above. His physical tools give him a decided edge over Dre.

    Josh can run the court and the toughness he brings to the table negates the loss of Miles and Mason (if Mason does leave). Ryan's lack of offseason conditioning and lack of playing time in the new uptempo offense due to his foot injury has him behined Josh at the start of the season.

    Marshall does indeed get the start at center if Mason does go.

    Again, I doubt things will playout like this, but you never know and I'd rather admit it's possible than have to backtrack and eat crow.

    We'll know a lot more by the end of this week (hopefully).
    We all love to speculate, but if Mason returns, he starts, end of story! Also, if Shabazz comes, I would be very surprised if he didn't start. But where would he start? Would it be SG or small forward? I think this thread will be better served to await the April 11th results and also the April 29th NBA decision.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Columbus OH 614
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    Even though I clarified it as clearly as I could, you still hit me with the "Summer League is no comparison"? I stated that upfront.

    The point was Andre played the point which meant he had to handle the ball a lot (he was not working on PG skills, it was just to insure he had to dribble the ball a lot the entire game vs just hanging out on the wing) and he showed that he actually can dribble the ball adequately. It is not a strong point, but he is good enough that he should not be afraid to put the ball on the floor in Duke games. Yet he is. It's confidence/mental.

    If you can't see how good of a leaper Andre is, then we will have to just disagree on that. If you want a comparison from this years team, Andre and Austin are roughly the same height, and Andre is a far better leaper than Austin is. Andre won the dunk contest at CTC two years in a row and showed great hops in doing so. If you could match the dunks he threw down in those contests at 5'10, then my hats off to you. Are you Spud Webb by chance?
    No you clarified the difference well but its still your main point....he did it in the summer league so he can do it now. My point is that Andre adequately handling the ball during the summer league does not equate to him being able to do it at Duke during games....Having a tight handle isn't one of those skills that carries over at every level, you might have been considered to have a great handle at one level but not so much playing against more talented/better defensively players. Its not like shooting where if you can shoot then you can shoot....

    Yea I guess we'll just have to disagree....I wouldn't put Dre in the same paragraph as guys like Deuce Bello, Shaq Johnson, JP Tokoto....those guys are great leapers

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