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  1. #61

    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with Shane here...

    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    There have been quite a few comments since I revived this thread, and some of you are making the same mistake as the rest of the sports world. You're thinking short-term and asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is based on Shane's statement: "Will a woman ever play in the NBA?"

    For the record, I agree with those of you who don't think Brittney Griner can make the jump to the NBA. Her height and physique give her a unique skill set in the women's game, which will serve her well in the WNBA. She'll be a star, and this talk about the NBA helps that, to the extent that it does not disrupt her WNBA career. That said, her skill set does not translate to the men's game. People are focusing on her because of her height, but she's not a very good example of a player with crossover potential.

    I don't know if we've seen a good example in the women's game just yet, but like Shane, I think she exists or will exist. Put yourself in the place of some kind of NBA scout who is interested in making this gender crossover happen. What you're looking for, essentially, is the girls' version of Anthony Davis. Someone who develops her fundamentals as a guard and then sprouts in height as a late bloomer until she's a forward. She's about 6-foot-3, give or take an inch, and plays in girls' high school and women's college programs tall and talented enough to let her stay in the backcourt, or at least the perimeter. This kind of coddling makes her used to playing with other stars, and so she ends up doing a lot of grunt work to let them shine. She is a glue girl. For her pro career, she would do fine in the WNBA, if she wanted. But she could also pursue the NBA if she were willing to take the risk. Given the circumstances, and the salary disparity between leagues, I think she would.

    Undrafted, she starts in the NBA summer league, impresses a few basketball people and a ton of corporate people, and gets a roster spot on a team with a coach and personnel mostly willing to keep an open mind. This garners her a lot of media attention, and she will say the right things when needed. The season starts, with her deep on the bench, but she makes the most of limited (garbage) minutes. Maybe she gets more playing time, maybe not. But she acquits herself well, gets along with her teammates, and has a serviceable rookie season. The team wins a few more games, which they can attribute to her directly (her play adds to their depth) or indirectly (her presence gives them increased media attention and fan support). No reason why she can't stick around.

    Does she dominate? Probably not. Does she earn a salary and survive in the league? Absolutely. As usual, Shane is operating on a different mental level than the rest of us. We just have to try and catch up.
    And agree with Double DD... The reality is that men's and women's bodies are quite simply very different with respect to frame, muscle mass (which is dependent on frame), and body chemistry (which impacts the first two tremendously during adolescent development). This is ultimately why we have men's and women's sports in the first place, so the athletes are competing against a like pool of athletes.

    This example of the mythical female guard in a female forward's body being a potential crossover overlooks a number of realities. First, as many have pointed out, the ball and lines on the floor are different in the women's game, so the basis for comparison is flawed from the outset. You have no idea how this player's numbers would be marginally impacted with a larger ball and being forced to shoot from further out until said player actually begins to play under those circumstances, but my logical guess would be that there would be a negative impact. Add to this that said player will have to face a set of defenders on a daily basis who are bigger, faster, and far more athletic, on average, than the defenders she faced in the women's game... This, in my opinion, would clearly have the biggest impact on those shooting percentage numbers.

    So your women's-guard-in-the-body-of-a-forward crossover candidate, when she crosses over, (1) likely isn't going to be particularly big at the guard position in the NBA, (2) is going to be going up against far stronger, faster, more athletic (and physical) defenders on a regular basis, and (3) is going to have to do all of this with a 3-point line that is further out. Oh yeah, and with respect to the free-throw shooting argument--ya gotta get to the line before you can shoot free throws...

    I agree with others here who have essentially stated that Griner doesn't have a snowball's chance in the Sahara of competing in the NBA, and yet she is a very unique, once-in-a-lifetime type talent--she's simply a phenomenal athlete within her cohort, like nothing we've ever seen before in the women's game... Yet if you look at this empirically, she's simply not equipped to compete against the top athletes at her position in the men's game.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Double DD View Post
    The fastest marathon time by a woman in the world last year wouldn't even have ranked in the top 1000 for men.



    There might be women who can shoot free throws as well as or better than NBA players but I'm not buying that there are women who can shoot from the floor at a NBA level. Or that there are women as fast and strong as NBA players. Elite female sprinters tend to put up times equivalent to the fastest 14 year old boys. Give one of them a basketball and they'd still be slower than a lot of college guards, let alone those in the NBA.
    I would have to think that an elite female 100 meter sprinter would be competitive with many NBA point guards from a raw speed perspective... I don't expect to see a woman compete in the NBA in my lifetime but it is an outside possibility. A 6'3" female point guard with world class speed, great outside shot and an extremely high bball IQ is the only type of player I can imagine making it into the association though.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    I would have to think that an elite female 100 meter sprinter would be competitive with many NBA point guards from a raw speed perspective... I don't expect to see a woman compete in the NBA in my lifetime but it is an outside possibility. A 6'3" female point guard with world class speed, great outside shot and an extremely high bball IQ is the only type of player I can imagine making it into the association though.
    IF it ever were to happen, I think you have the formula. But, I don't think it will, because as time goes on, the men are getting bigger and stronger and faster as well. I just don't think that Basketball is a sport where women can compete with men on equal footing, far too much contact and physicality involved IMO.

  4. #64
    The East Germans trained their female athletes full time in special "schools" from childhood. They gave the women massive amounts of steroids - so much that their voices changed and they grew facial hair. They dominated women's track and field, and swimming.

    Despite all of that work, the best women's times fell far, far short of the men's times in every event.

    Men and women are mechanically different. No amount of training or skill will make up that difference.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian913 View Post
    The East Germans trained their female athletes full time in special "schools" from childhood. They gave the women massive amounts of steroids - so much that their voices changed and they grew facial hair. They dominated women's track and field, and swimming.

    Despite all of that work, the best women's times fell far, far short of the men's times in every event.

    Men and women are mechanically different. No amount of training or skill will make up that difference.
    Thank the Lord!! This is a wonderful thing.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by InSpades View Post
    The biggest difference between playing w/ a men's or women's ball is probably that you are used to one more than the other. The women's ball is obviously easier to shoot, but I doubt the difference is that huge. If you can shoot 95% w/ a woman's ball I bet you can get pretty close to that with a men's ball.
    Shooting from the line with the the 1" larger men's ball will bring her 95% down to under 75%. That's my bet. If we could get a good sample of her shots it could be determined what percentage of her made shots do make contact with the rim. Give her the big ball and, shooting with the same accuracy, most of those shots that made rim contact will turn into rebounds.

  7. #67
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    Role for Women in the Major Leagues???

    This is totally nutty, I guess, but Jim Bouton, former fireball pitcher turned knuckleballer turned actor (The Long Goodbye) and author of the hilariously funny Ball Four (circa 1970), has suggested that women could pitch in MLB as knuckleballers. There is a premium on precision and speed on the knuckleball is a negative.

    sagegrouse

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    This is totally nutty, I guess, but Jim Bouton, former fireball pitcher turned knuckleballer turned actor (The Long Goodbye) and author of the hilariously funny Ball Four (circa 1970), has suggested that women could pitch in MLB as knuckleballers. There is a premium on precision and speed on the knuckleball is a negative.

    sagegrouse
    That I could see, especially with the DH.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    Shooting from the line with the the 1" larger men's ball will bring her 95% down to under 75%. That's my bet. If we could get a good sample of her shots it could be determined what percentage of her made shots do make contact with the rim. Give her the big ball and, shooting with the same accuracy, most of those shots that made rim contact will turn into rebounds.
    I seriously doubt it would go down that much

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
    Shooting from the line with the the 1" larger men's ball will bring her 95% down to under 75%. That's my bet. If we could get a good sample of her shots it could be determined what percentage of her made shots do make contact with the rim. Give her the big ball and, shooting with the same accuracy, most of those shots that made rim contact will turn into rebounds.
    http://www.johk.pl/files/114podmenik.pdf

    Some people act like women have always used the smaller ball. Internationally, they only adopted it in 2004. The link is a study from Slovenia studying shooting percentages from the 2001-2007 Eurobasket Women competitions. I believe the ABL used the size 7 ball during its couple of season of existence.

    There are plenty of reasons why even the best female player will not be able to compete directly against the top male players. The ball size is probably pretty low on the list of reasons why.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    Shane Battier, as much as I love him, is talking complete nonsense. And Mark Cuban is a walking publicity stunt.

    Britney Griner has about as much chance of playing in the NBA as a bicycle does winning the Daytona 500.
    Quote Originally Posted by TruBlu View Post
    There have been lots of advances in doping.
    The Germans might have it figured out:

    http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/11/seg...mes-to-the-us/


    Not that it could win the Daytona 500, but...
    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  12. #72
    I don't see the front page story, so I'm not sure what exactly was said. I did, however, find what Brittney is quoted as saying in this article pretty interesting:

    http://www.indystar.com/viewart/2013...-Cuban-s-offer

    Griner is well aware of the challenges of competing against NBA players.

    “They are strong, definitely bigger than me,” she said. “I would have to as you say, man-up. But I’ve never backed down from a challenge and I never will. If I get an elbow to the chest from one of those big guys, hey, at least I can say I was there and tried it.”
    If she herself uses such language--and is clearly not offended--what's the big deal?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Blink View Post
    I don't see the front page story, so I'm not sure what exactly was said. I did, however, find what Brittney is quoted as saying in this article pretty interesting:

    http://www.indystar.com/viewart/2013...-Cuban-s-offer



    If she herself uses such language--and is clearly not offended--what's the big deal?
    The PC Police are ALWAYS on the prowl. Some, it seems, must always be offended by something. Maybe it makes them feel alive.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Tappan Zee Devil View Post
    Hmm - I saw a segment on Griner where they said she was 185 lbs. Maybe flattering her.
    It would be difficult to find an exact cognate; however, I'll try to clarify my point, which is really strengthened if she is lighter.

    A) Griner was hands down the best F/C in women's ball.

    B) Lance Thomas, about the same size, is a far superior player, who would dominate the women's game far far more than Griner did.

    C) It has taken Lance years of hard work to sniff the NBA.

    Ergo,

    Griner has no shot to make a roster in any way other than as a novelty.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa John View Post
    First, as many have pointed out, the ball and lines on the floor are different in the women's game, so the basis for comparison is flawed from the outset.
    FYI, the lines are not different. The three-point lines were until a season or two ago, but not now.

    The ball is different, but it's not like these women don't play pickup with men all the time. I don't think they're using a women's ball then, so it's not like their fingers will fall off at the sheer weight or size of it. Will it affect their in-game percentages? I would imagine so overall, but a person whose percentages drop off signficantly because of the larger ball is not the woman we're hypothetically discussing here.

    I agree with brevity's post upthread. If this were to happen, I think it would be in the sort of scenario he envisions, not necessarily a star college player. I think you have to broaden your viewpoint some to imagine a plausible situation, and I'm not shocked to hear that Shane can do that.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Lid View Post
    FYI, the lines are not different. The three-point lines were until a season or two ago, but not now.
    Not being an avid follower of women's basketball, I had not tracked this rule change. I stand corrected on this point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lid View Post
    The ball is different, but it's not like these women don't play pickup with men all the time. I don't think they're using a women's ball then, so it's not like their fingers will fall off at the sheer weight or size of it. Will it affect their in-game percentages? I would imagine so overall, but a person whose percentages drop off signficantly because of the larger ball is not the woman we're hypothetically discussing here.
    Snarkiness aside, you've chosen to address the least important argument. The underlying, undeniable fact that makes this whole proposition silly is simple, biological reality. The male and female bodies are fundamentally different, and have evolved that way over the course of around a million years.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa John View Post
    Snarkiness aside, you've chosen to address the least important argument. The underlying, undeniable fact that makes this whole proposition silly is simple, biological reality. The male and female bodies are fundamentally different, and have evolved that way over the course of around a million years.
    I also think the ball is relatively unimportant, but it sure did garner a lot of attention over the preceding pages. I don't think it's an irrelevant point, but I agree with you that it's not the major inhibitor. (As an aside, may I ask why you've only chosen to call out me for discussing it? You did mention it in your post, and many other posters have as well.)

    I'm wondering if you read my final paragraph or not, where I addressed what you and I seem on agree on as being the most important point. If this were to happen, it would likely not happen because the woman in question was especially tall or physically similar to the largest men in the NBA, it would be because she was a glue player in some as-yet-undefined way. I thought brevity made excellent points along those lines. Do I think it's likely to happen (in a non-gimmicky way)? No. If it does happen, my opinion is that it will be under a different paradigm that what's being discussed here. Hence my assertion that I'm not surprised Shane has the imagination for that.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Lid View Post
    (As an aside, may I ask why you've only chosen to call out me for discussing it?
    You quoted my post in making a snarky observation about the ball size, and I simply noted that ball size [and my incorrect observation regarding the different location of lines on the court between the men's and women's game] was the least important argument here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lid View Post
    I'm wondering if you read my final paragraph or not, where I addressed what you and I seem on agree on as being the most important point. If this were to happen, it would likely not happen because the woman in question was especially tall or physically similar to the largest men in the NBA, it would be because she was a glue player in some as-yet-undefined way. I thought brevity made excellent points along those lines. Do I think it's likely to happen (in a non-gimmicky way)? No. If it does happen, my opinion is that it will be under a different paradigm that what's being discussed here. Hence my assertion that I'm not surprised Shane has the imagination for that.
    I did read your argument, and I just fundamentally disagree with you and brevity. I don't believe this is a matter of imaginative thinking. It's a matter of basic biological reality, as others have [in my opinion] correctly stated. Bottom line, we're talking about one of the most uniquely talented and athletic (in fact, arguably the most uniquely talented and athletic) women's basketball players ever in the women's game—a Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain/Lew Alcindor-type of truly transcendental talent... Yet despite this fact, I really find it hard to believe that any NBA player personnel decision-maker in their right mind [with the exception of Mark "I-never-met-a-PR-opportunity-I-didn't-like" Cuban] would even consider giving Griner a serious look...

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by brevity View Post
    There have been quite a few comments since I revived this thread, and some of you are making the same mistake as the rest of the sports world. You're thinking short-term and asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is based on Shane's statement: "Will a woman ever play in the NBA?"

    For the record, I agree with those of you who don't think Brittney Griner can make the jump to the NBA. Her height and physique give her a unique skill set in the women's game, which will serve her well in the WNBA. She'll be a star, and this talk about the NBA helps that, to the extent that it does not disrupt her WNBA career. That said, her skill set does not translate to the men's game. People are focusing on her because of her height, but she's not a very good example of a player with crossover potential.

    I don't know if we've seen a good example in the women's game just yet, but like Shane, I think she exists or will exist. Put yourself in the place of some kind of NBA scout who is interested in making this gender crossover happen. What you're looking for, essentially, is the girls' version of Anthony Davis. Someone who develops her fundamentals as a guard and then sprouts in height as a late bloomer until she's a forward. She's about 6-foot-3, give or take an inch, and plays in girls' high school and women's college programs tall and talented enough to let her stay in the backcourt, or at least the perimeter. This kind of coddling makes her used to playing with other stars, and so she ends up doing a lot of grunt work to let them shine. She is a glue girl. For her pro career, she would do fine in the WNBA, if she wanted. But she could also pursue the NBA if she were willing to take the risk. Given the circumstances, and the salary disparity between leagues, I think she would.

    Undrafted, she starts in the NBA summer league, impresses a few basketball people and a ton of corporate people, and gets a roster spot on a team with a coach and personnel mostly willing to keep an open mind. This garners her a lot of media attention, and she will say the right things when needed. The season starts, with her deep on the bench, but she makes the most of limited (garbage) minutes. Maybe she gets more playing time, maybe not. But she acquits herself well, gets along with her teammates, and has a serviceable rookie season. The team wins a few more games, which they can attribute to her directly (her play adds to their depth) or indirectly (her presence gives them increased media attention and fan support). No reason why she can't stick around.

    Does she dominate? Probably not. Does she earn a salary and survive in the league? Absolutely. As usual, Shane is operating on a different mental level than the rest of us. We just have to try and catch up.
    While this is a well thought-out post, I agree with others, that there is ZERO chance of this happening, with Griner, or anyone else, in the foreseeable future.

    We'll see women break through in a whole host of sports before this, including golf (think Michelle Wie crossed with Annika Sorenstam), soccer / hockey (but only as a goalie), football (kicker, maybe something like longsnapper), baseball (knuckleballer), and maybe even something like MMA (submission artist in a light weight class).

    Put a different way, think of sports and positions where absolute elite-level male athletes (in either strength, quickness, or size) dominate: most positions in the NFL, most positions in the NBA, most positions in soccer. Then think of the opposite; guys like John Daly in golf, Wiry pitchers in MLB, a few kickers in the NFL. If women have a chance, it's where the latter group has been successful.

    MMA is obviously in the former (rather than the latter), but part of me thinks the combination of weight classes and the focus on technique overcoming brute strength in Brazilian Jujitsu might create an opportunity.

    But, as so many in the media have said, no way do we see a woman playing in the NBA as anything more than a publicity stunt anytime soon.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa John View Post
    Snarkiness aside, you've chosen to address the least important argument. The underlying, undeniable fact that makes this whole proposition silly is simple, biological reality. The male and female bodies are fundamentally different, and have evolved that way over the course of around a million years.
    I don't think it's likely we'll see a "non-publicity stunt" female player in the NBA any time soon, but I do think it's possible.

    I think you're making the same mistake that is often made when comparing individuals to populations. Men, on average, are stronger and faster than women, on average. This does not preclude the possibility that an individual woman can be strong enough or fast enough to make the NBA, particularly if she brings some other significant skill or value. Men in the pros are already well above average in speed and strength, so this woman would need to be significantly above women's average -- but it's not impossible. I do think it's more likely, as Reisen stated, in sports like golf or baseball.

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