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Thread: Masters 2012

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug.I.Am View Post
    Yeah, what Tiger did on 16 was wrong and the cursing isn't good "role-modelish" chatter. But guys, this is Tiger Woods. He's always done this sort of thing.
    And this IS golf, gosh darn it.
    ~rthomas


  2. #62
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    I saw some spectator (excuse me I ment to say patron) get hit by a drive on Sunday. He went down like he was shot. Does anyone know what happened to him?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    I saw some spectator (excuse me I ment to say patron) get hit by a drive on Sunday. He went down like he was shot. Does anyone know what happened to him?
    I saw the same thing but got no report from the TV and it wasn't even Vitale calling the event. Bob Harris thought ted valentine called Austin Rivers for the charge on that drive.
    I certify that I personally composed this post entirely on its own merit (or lack thereof) without assistance of tutors, advisers, counselors or other outside sources or references. No credit is requested or received and no eligibility has been questioned (yet) with its submission.

  4. #64
    I thought I heard them say as the camera closed in that the guy was just fooling around, pretending to be hit.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug.I.Am View Post
    Yeah, what Tiger did on 16 was wrong and the cursing isn't good "role-modelish" chatter. But guys, this is Tiger Woods. He's always done this sort of thing. He said when he came back that he was going to change but I keep thinking leaopard and spots here. I don't care how old you are, it is what it is and Tiger shows his emotions on his sleeve and probably always will. His excuse for kicking the club reaffirms my belief he had very little remorse for his actions. If he had won, would we be talking about his etiquette and/or decorum? Seems people were a lot more okay with his antics pre-fallout.
    I don't think it was quite as common knowledge what a pottymouth he's always been pre-11/09 as it is now. Golf reporters and commentators, and fellow players, were afraid to say anything out in the open about his behavior because, well, $$. Serious fans knew; casual ones only heard he was a super ninja Zen master who could stop midway through his downswing because he heard a hummingbird 40 yards away and still re-focus enough to drive it 350 down the middle after backing off. The total contradiction in those two ideas was one of the numerous reasons a lot of real fans had pretty ambivalent feelings about the guy. You're right that his incredible play overshadowed that to a degree, but again, I think it was more the money he brought to everyone's table that kept him from public critique of his antics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug.I.Am View Post
    Also, and most importantly IMO, Woods was arguably the best golfer ever and certainly of his generation. What he's going through has to be absolutely maddening. He's bascially an average guy out there these days and Tiger has never been anything remotely close to that. I'm not surprised one bit by his actions. I actually felt for the guy watching him push-fade after push-fade his iron play in rd 2. Here's hoping he can somehow figure out how to take his swing on the range to the course so we can focus on his golf, not his actions. But then again, I can't figure that out and my hourglass is a lot further along than Tiger's.
    Here's where we diverge. Tiger brought all of this on himself. If he would change his spots, or at least act like he wants to, I might sympathize with his inability to consistently hang with the best right now after dominating them the first 10 years of his career. The story of redemption is there for him. His public behavior (which is all a sports follower has to go on), however, leads me to feel a little schadenfreude right now instead. One would think a man who just went through the most public divorce imaginable, who's been outed as a complete cad, and has had his reputation absolutely shattered and probably lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the process, would act a little humbled in public. Since he's not, a part of me wants the game to force a little humility, and thereby, humanity, out of him.

    He still gives interviews after rounds that (a) make no gracious mention of how well others are playing, and (b) contain nothing to even imply the possibility that, although they're beating him, they're making mistakes and missing putts they feel like they should make, too. This has always been an infuriating aspect about Tiger to me, and it's not changing. He's still spending too much time whining about his own mistakes in public, and until he stops giving the equivalent of the Makhtar Ngiaye "We beat outselves" speech, he's not going to get much sympathy from me.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    I don't think it was quite as common knowledge what a pottymouth he's always been pre-11/09 as it is now. Golf reporters and commentators, and fellow players, were afraid to say anything out in the open about his behavior because, well, $$. Serious fans knew; casual ones only heard he was a super ninja Zen master who could stop midway through his downswing because he heard a hummingbird 40 yards away and still re-focus enough to drive it 350 down the middle after backing off. The total contradiction in those two ideas was one of the numerous reasons a lot of real fans had pretty ambivalent feelings about the guy. You're right that his incredible play overshadowed that to a degree, but again, I think it was more the money he brought to everyone's table that kept him from public critique of his antics.
    I wrote this in July 2008: I am ambivalent towards Tiger -- ambivalence as distinct from indifference. What I find frustrating is the ceaseless uncritical affection heaped upon the Walking Nike Commercial by those who do not follow golf a whole lot.

    http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...ger#post168673

    All the data was there; one just had to pay attention and put 2 and 2 together.

    It seems Tiger is trying to play his way through his problems -- one major championship victory and everything will be all right again. I don't blame him, as the golf course is probably the place where he is most at peace right know, although this may not have been obvious from his behavior last week. But the longer he goes without winning (a major), the more people pay attention to all that other stuff, because you can't use "well, he wins, doesn't he" as an excuse.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleyfor3 View Post
    I wrote this in July 2008: I am ambivalent towards Tiger -- ambivalence as distinct from indifference. What I find frustrating is the ceaseless uncritical affection heaped upon the Walking Nike Commercial by those who do not follow golf a whole lot.

    http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...ger#post168673

    All the data was there; one just had to pay attention and put 2 and 2 together.

    It seems Tiger is trying to play his way through his problems -- one major championship victory and everything will be all right again. I don't blame him, as the golf course is probably the place where he is most at peace right know, although this may not have been obvious from his behavior last week. But the longer he goes without winning (a major), the more people pay attention to all that other stuff, because you can't use "well, he wins, doesn't he" as an excuse.
    Good points all. I'd make two points.

    1. This year, Tiger isn't exactly chopped liver. He is in the Top Ten in winnings and #4 in winnings per tournament played. He could end up having a great year.

    2. There is a long list of great, great sports performers who were not exactly a day at the beach: Hogan in his prime. Seve. Snead at times. Walter Hagen. In other sports: Teddy Ballgame had a hostile relationship with the Boston press and many of their fans during most of his career. Frank Robinson and Bob Gibson gave no one any quarter. And Roger Clemens is in a class-by-himself, with or without added substances. Jim Brown was not exactly avuncular. Bill Russell, anyone? MJ? Nicklaus had some rough edges early, but he got them under control. Tiger, to be sure, is a star member of this club, both in terms of performance and attitude.

    Part of the problem for golfers is that the first modern-day hero was Arnold Palmer. Arnie had a patent on charisma, and no one can really compare with him.

    sagegrouse

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Good points all. I'd make two points.

    1. This year, Tiger isn't exactly chopped liver. He is in the Top Ten in winnings and #4 in winnings per tournament played. He could end up having a great year.

    2. There is a long list of great, great sports performers who were not exactly a day at the beach: Hogan in his prime. Seve. Snead at times. Walter Hagen. In other sports: Teddy Ballgame had a hostile relationship with the Boston press and many of their fans during most of his career. Frank Robinson and Bob Gibson gave no one any quarter. And Roger Clemens is in a class-by-himself, with or without added substances. Jim Brown was not exactly avuncular. Bill Russell, anyone? MJ? Nicklaus had some rough edges early, but he got them under control. Tiger, to be sure, is a star member of this club, both in terms of performance and attitude.

    Part of the problem for golfers is that the first modern-day hero was Arnold Palmer. Arnie had a patent on charisma, and no one can really compare with him.

    sagegrouse
    I agree with you, Sage one. That said, even Arnie had his warts. He was a well known swordsman in his early years.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Here's where we diverge. Tiger brought all of this on himself. If he would change his spots, or at least act like he wants to, I might sympathize with his inability to consistently hang with the best right now after dominating them the first 10 years of his career. The story of redemption is there for him. His public behavior (which is all a sports follower has to go on), however, leads me to feel a little schadenfreude right now instead. One would think a man who just went through the most public divorce imaginable, who's been outed as a complete cad, and has had his reputation absolutely shattered and probably lost hundreds of millions of dollars in the process, would act a little humbled in public. Since he's not, a part of me wants the game to force a little humility, and thereby, humanity, out of him.

    He still gives interviews after rounds that (a) make no gracious mention of how well others are playing, and (b) contain nothing to even imply the possibility that, although they're beating him, they're making mistakes and missing putts they feel like they should make, too. This has always been an infuriating aspect about Tiger to me, and it's not changing. He's still spending too much time whining about his own mistakes in public, and until he stops giving the equivalent of the Makhtar Ngiaye "We beat outselves" speech, he's not going to get much sympathy from me.
    Thanks for the comments Mal. I only have one thing to add. It's been widely understood that Woods is making an effort to reconnect with the fans. He's acknowledging them much more often on the course and giving autographs after play many times. Will Woods ever be Phil or Arnie? Heck no, but I think he's trying.

    Let's admit it, the vast majority of fans still love Woods. They still want him to win every time out. Ratings soar when he's in contention and gallaries swell when he's playing. He's not nearly as hated as some want him to be. I don't know why but I still root for the guy. How I can pull for a guy who had multiple affairs, rarely interacted with his fans and always seemed holier than thou is well beyond my ken. I suppose it's another guilty pleasure.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug.I.Am View Post
    Thanks for the comments Mal. I only have one thing to add. It's been widely understood that Woods is making an effort to reconnect with the fans. He's acknowledging them much more often on the course and giving autographs after play many times. Will Woods ever be Phil or Arnie? Heck no, but I think he's trying.

    Let's admit it, the vast majority of fans still love Woods. They still want him to win every time out. Ratings soar when he's in contention and gallaries swell when he's playing. He's not nearly as hated as some want him to be. I don't know why but I still root for the guy. How I can pull for a guy who had multiple affairs, rarely interacted with his fans and always seemed holier than thou is well beyond my ken. I suppose it's another guilty pleasure.
    And PGA players like him too because they know he is the reason they are all millionaires.
    ~rthomas


  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by rthomas View Post
    And PGA players like him too because they know he is the reason they are all millionaires.
    Do they like him, or just tolerate and co-exist with him for that rea$on? Even without the prickly personality and recent scandals, in many ways Tiger's not much like the average PGA tour player. It's chock full of Bible thumpers and he claims to be a practicing Buddhist, for starters. Oh, well, no matter.

    It is amazing, to take this a slightly different direction, just how lucrative golf has become. I didn't look back into historical data, but I did a little poking around this morning and note that the 50th guy on the PGA money list last year made 3x what the 50th guy on the ATP money list did last year, and would have been No. 8 on the men's tennis tour with those winnings. That's an absurd spread, and doesn't even account for the fact that there's another entire golf tour out there, but only one tennis circuit. In fact, the 50th player on the Euro Tour's money list last year was about on par in earnings with the 50th men's tennis player. With the costs of travel, coaches, trainers, etc., it's just tough to make much of a living off tennis, I guess. I don't know what kind of sponsorship money there is, but the match winnings for the 50th best tennis player in the world last year probably netted that player, after taxes and costs, somewhere around $300k. Great money, to be sure, but in a job with rapidly declining salary after about age 30 that ends by age 38, that's really not lucrative in today's world where professional athletes are generally thought of as being uniformly rich. If you don't peak in the Top 10 in that sport and stay there for a couple years, you're not exactly living out the rest of your days comfortably when you retire. Meanwhile, you can now chug around on the PGA tour for a decade and a half, never win a tournament or crack the Top 30 in the rankings, and still pile up $25M+ just by staying busy.

    And with that, I'm calling up Mrs. Mal to get my son pulled out of tennis lessons and on the range, pronto!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Do they like him, or just tolerate and co-exist with him for that rea$on? Even without the prickly personality and recent scandals, in many ways Tiger's not much like the average PGA tour player. It's chock full of Bible thumpers and he claims to be a practicing Buddhist, for starters. Oh, well, no matter.

    It is amazing, to take this a slightly different direction, just how lucrative golf has become. I didn't look back into historical data, but I did a little poking around this morning and note that the 50th guy on the PGA money list last year made 3x what the 50th guy on the ATP money list did last year, and would have been No. 8 on the men's tennis tour with those winnings. That's an absurd spread, and doesn't even account for the fact that there's another entire golf tour out there, but only one tennis circuit. In fact, the 50th player on the Euro Tour's money list last year was about on par in earnings with the 50th men's tennis player. With the costs of travel, coaches, trainers, etc., it's just tough to make much of a living off tennis, I guess. I don't know what kind of sponsorship money there is, but the match winnings for the 50th best tennis player in the world last year probably netted that player, after taxes and costs, somewhere around $300k. Great money, to be sure, but in a job with rapidly declining salary after about age 30 that ends by age 38, that's really not lucrative in today's world where professional athletes are generally thought of as being uniformly rich. If you don't peak in the Top 10 in that sport and stay there for a couple years, you're not exactly living out the rest of your days comfortably when you retire. Meanwhile, you can now chug around on the PGA tour for a decade and a half, never win a tournament or crack the Top 30 in the rankings, and still pile up $25M+ just by staying busy.

    And with that, I'm calling up Mrs. Mal to get my son pulled out of tennis lessons and on the range, pronto!
    Yeah and nevermind that Hale Irwin has made 26 million more after the age of 50. My son just committed to a college for baseball, I wonder if it's too late for him to pick up the sticks and make a go at it. I mean, how hard can golf be. The ball just sits there and 18 times a round you can make it even easier by putting it on a tee.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Do they like him, or just tolerate and co-exist with him for that rea$on? Even without the prickly personality and recent scandals, in many ways Tiger's not much like the average PGA tour player. It's chock full of Bible thumpers and he claims to be a practicing Buddhist, for starters. Oh, well, no matter.

    It is amazing, to take this a slightly different direction, just how lucrative golf has become. I didn't look back into historical data, but I did a little poking around this morning and note that the 50th guy on the PGA money list last year made 3x what the 50th guy on the ATP money list did last year, and would have been No. 8 on the men's tennis tour with those winnings. That's an absurd spread, and doesn't even account for the fact that there's another entire golf tour out there, but only one tennis circuit. In fact, the 50th player on the Euro Tour's money list last year was about on par in earnings with the 50th men's tennis player. With the costs of travel, coaches, trainers, etc., it's just tough to make much of a living off tennis, I guess. I don't know what kind of sponsorship money there is, but the match winnings for the 50th best tennis player in the world last year probably netted that player, after taxes and costs, somewhere around $300k. Great money, to be sure, but in a job with rapidly declining salary after about age 30 that ends by age 38, that's really not lucrative in today's world where professional athletes are generally thought of as being uniformly rich. If you don't peak in the Top 10 in that sport and stay there for a couple years, you're not exactly living out the rest of your days comfortably when you retire. Meanwhile, you can now chug around on the PGA tour for a decade and a half, never win a tournament or crack the Top 30 in the rankings, and still pile up $25M+ just by staying busy.

    And with that, I'm calling up Mrs. Mal to get my son pulled out of tennis lessons and on the range, pronto!

    And the leading money winner on the PGA and Euro Tours last year was the same guy -- Luke Donald, who took home over $13.5 million in prize money between the two tours. He actually took home more money in just 13 events on the Euro Tour (a little over 5.3 million euros, or just shy of $7 million) than he did in 19 events on the PGA Tour (just under $6.7 million).

    The take-home winnings of the top four or five guys on the Euro Tour are comparable to those at the top of the PGA Tour. As you noted, though, the big difference on the PGA Tour is that there's a lot more money downstream. The #50 guy on the Euro Tour last year (Jaco Van Zyl) took home 611,280 euros, or just a little over $800,000, which would've been good for #113 on the PGA Tour (barely high enough for a player to keep his PGA Tour card).

    As for tennis, yeah, if you're at the very top, life is good -- but the dropoff is steeper than the Euro Tour and way steeper than the PGA Tour. Last year, the $1 million cutoff on the ATP Tour was #25, while it was #41 on the Euro Tour and #94 (!) on the PGA Tour. For $2 million, the cutoffs were #7 on the ATP Tour, #12 on the Euro Tour and #38 on the PGA Tour.

    So in a nutshell, I agree with you -- time to get my 4-month-old son fitted for a set of cut-down clubs.

    Another interesting bit of trivia about tennis -- both Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras are still in the top 5 all-time career prize money winners on the ATP Tour (Agassi is #5 and Sampras is #3). Roger Federer is #1 and Rafael Nadal is #2 (no surprise there). Novak Djokovic is #4 and could pass Sampras for #3 this year. After that, though, it looks like Sampras and Agassi may hang out at #4 and #5 for a while. The next active players on the list are Andy Roddick and Andy Murray at #10 and #11, respectively, but both are nearly $11 million behind Agassi. If Andy Murray keeps winning at the pace he did last year (just over $5 million in prize money), he could catch Agassi in two to three years and Sampras in about five years. Both of those are possible, assuming he stays healthy, as he'll turn 25 next month and probably has four or five more years of top-level tennis in him. Roddick is less likely to catch either, though -- he made "only" a little over $1 million last year, and will turn 30 this year, so he's probably beginning the downturn of his playing career. (As an aside, remember back in 2003 when Federer won Wimbledon and Roddick won the U.S. Open, and it looked like that was going to be the premiere tennis rivalry for the next seven or eight years?)

    Also, John McEnroe is still in the Top 25 on the career prize money list (as of the first week of this month, he was #24).

  14. #74
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    I just finished Hank Haney's book The Big Miss about his 6 years teaching Tiger. It has made me appreciate how flawed a person tiger really is. He essentially has no life except golf and working out. The book doesn't go into reasons for Tiger's flawed personality although we can speculate that his father might bear some responsibility, but it made me more sympathetic toward Tiger as an incomplete person.

  15. #75
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    I know the tennis Player Council has been grumbling for awhile now about needing to raise the payouts - but I didn't realize how far behind golf they were. Not that they're necessarily related, but it is interesting to note.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    I just finished Hank Haney's book The Big Miss about his 6 years teaching Tiger. It has made me appreciate how flawed a person tiger really is. He essentially has no life except golf and working out. The book doesn't go into reasons for Tiger's flawed personality although we can speculate that his father might bear some responsibility, but it made me more sympathetic toward Tiger as an incomplete person.
    Was the book worth reading? I've been thinking about buying it.
    ~rthomas


  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rthomas View Post
    Was the book worth reading? I've been thinking about buying it.
    I really liked it. I am not a Tiger fan; but, surprisingly, I came away more sympathetic to Tiger. I still want ABT (anybody but tiger)to win.It was $12 for ebook. Don't know what it is in hard/soft copy.

  18. #78
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    sagegrouse - you get bonus points for both using the word avuncular, and using it correctly. Nice job!

  19. #79
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    Aerial View of Bubba Watsons Shot at the Masters

    I don't think this has been posted before.

    Bubba's playoff shot on 18, aerial view.

    Bubba Watsons Masters shot.jpg
    Let's go DUKE !!!!

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluDvlsN1 View Post
    I don't think this has been posted before.

    Bubba's playoff shot on 18, aerial view.

    Bubba Watsons Masters shot.jpg
    That is one hellacious draw bordering on the absurd. Thanks for posting this. Well played, Watson.

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