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  1. #1

    After Irving & Rivers, How Do Duke Fans Feel About the One-and-Done Rule?

    Cal still says he isn't a fan of the rule, but it's an NBA problem to address, and until they do, it's in-bounds.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    I would rather have had a full year of Kyrie on the court, but I'm fine with us having one or two each year. I wish they'd change the rule and make it 2 or 3 years, but that's just me being selfish.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Absent a D-League that's more useful than the one we've got, college is the minor leagues. I'd probably prefer something like baseball where you can either go pro straight out of high school or you have to stay in college three years.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    that would be good

    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Absent a D-League that's more useful than the one we've got, college is the minor leagues. I'd probably prefer something like baseball where you can either go pro straight out of high school or you have to stay in college three years.
    I'd like that alternative, but have to add that I think the root of the problem is the rookie salary cap. Makes it easy for NBA teams to draft on "upside" and also encourages players to go early, to burn off the relatively low salaries of the first few years.

  5. #5
    I really dislike it but don't begrudge anyone the decisions they have to make to maximize their chances for personal and/or team success.

    It's a balancing act for college coaches. You balance the influx of raw talent vs. team cohesion. Sometimes raw talent wins out, sometimes raw talent makes rookie (freshman) mistakes and a veteran team can capitalize on that. And it's not easy to predict in advance which configuration of players/experience will end up the best for your program.

    I'm no labor market legal eagle, so what follows next is subject to revision if/when I get a better understanding. But I'm not crazy about the NBA setting that rule. I think that if a player is an adult at 18 they should be able to enter the job market. The NBA is a private group, though, and I suppose with the labor agreement they can set their own rules for entry. Whether they're a monopoly and thus subject to some limitations on their market behavior - I don't know. But it seems that the talking heads agree that the rule was set because management made too many mistakes with kids right out of high school. Whose fault is that? Not the kids! So they set this rule to save themselves from ... themselves. Seems nutty to me - and I am surprised there aren't enough owners who would maintain "I'm not that dumb, I don't need the rule, give me [Prep Star X] now!"

    All other things being equal, I'd rather have Duke be a program of 4 year players. All other things being equal, I'd like to see the NBA allow 18 year olds to come right in out of HS, perhaps to the NBDL first if necessary, so that college basketball is again for college students. But all else is not equal, and I am in no position to second-guess Coach K's judgment about whether a player would, even if they just came for 1 year, be a net benefit to the program (and university) or not.

    I think if we made the Final Four either of the last 2 years we probably aren't having this thread.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    I'm no expert

    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    But I'm not crazy about the NBA setting that rule. I think that if a player is an adult at 18 they should be able to enter the job market. The NBA is a private group, though, and I suppose with the labor agreement they can set their own rules for entry. Whether they're a monopoly and thus subject to some limitations on their market behavior - I don't know.
    My understanding is that the NBA restrictions on when a player can go pro and the rookie salary cap would be illegal under antitrust law, but for the labor agreement with the NBA players union.

  7. #7
    I personally don't like it. It makes freshman year in college like a tryout for the NBA. I think college bball should be reserved for players that at least buy into the idea of getting an education. If they got $$ on the brain or are ready to play NBA out of high school, let them do it. If they are not NBA ready but have no desire to go to college, they should be able to play in the D league or abroad (I guess they can still go abroad like Jennings did).

    Some players explode their fr/so year, catch the eyes of scouts, and set sail on that ship. I am fine with that. It's the kids that are forced to go to school when they already have their minds set on going to the NBA after a year that I do not like. In a way, it kind of makes a joke out of our higher education system if schools are willing to accept kids that have no desire to get a degree.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Martinsville, VA
    I don't like it but we may as well accept it. Last year, it was Kyrie. This year, Austin. And if we're lucky enough to get him, next year it will be Shabazz.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    I really dislike it but don't begrudge anyone the decisions they have to make to maximize their chances for personal and/or team success.

    It's a balancing act for college coaches. You balance the influx of raw talent vs. team cohesion. Sometimes raw talent wins out, sometimes raw talent makes rookie (freshman) mistakes and a veteran team can capitalize on that. And it's not easy to predict in advance which configuration of players/experience will end up the best for your program.

    I'm no labor market legal eagle, so what follows next is subject to revision if/when I get a better understanding. But I'm not crazy about the NBA setting that rule. I think that if a player is an adult at 18 they should be able to enter the job market. The NBA is a private group, though, and I suppose with the labor agreement they can set their own rules for entry. Whether they're a monopoly and thus subject to some limitations on their market behavior - I don't know. But it seems that the talking heads agree that the rule was set because management made too many mistakes with kids right out of high school. Whose fault is that? Not the kids! So they set this rule to save themselves from ... themselves. Seems nutty to me - and I am surprised there aren't enough owners who would maintain "I'm not that dumb, I don't need the rule, give me [Prep Star X] now!"

    All other things being equal, I'd rather have Duke be a program of 4 year players. All other things being equal, I'd like to see the NBA allow 18 year olds to come right in out of HS, perhaps to the NBDL first if necessary, so that college basketball is again for college students. But all else is not equal, and I am in no position to second-guess Coach K's judgment about whether a player would, even if they just came for 1 year, be a net benefit to the program (and university) or not.

    I think if we made the Final Four either of the last 2 years we probably aren't having this thread.
    I agree with most of your points. If a person is 18, they have the legal ability to many things (except drink - different discussion). Most probably lack the maturity and experience to make a well informed decision, but that's also a different topic. Some are physically and mentally built for the jump to the pros - LeBron, Howard, for two recent examples - and some are not and could benefit from expert coaching and more importantly, playing against more physically mature players than the average high school player. I heard someone use Greg Oden as an example - that he never faced a guy of his size and ability until well into his college career and did not fare well that time. Perhaps the problem is not with the NBA but with the NCAA and its supposed devotion to amateur purity. Not advocating paying players per se, but what about allowing them back into college to play if they try the pros (even declare for the draft) and can't cut it or don't feel ready for it. It would affect many other things like recruiting and so forth and might engender some abuses, but isn't it a bit like interning? The high school kid - let's use Kyrie as an example - could go to a summer pro league and check his skills against future players in NBA-like conditions (like defense being played). If he is as good as a Kyrie, he can choose to move on, or go back to college and work on improving his skills (probably would have some issues with scholarships and so forth but that's beyond this post).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Carolina Beach

    Baseball

    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Absent a D-League that's more useful than the one we've got, college is the minor leagues. I'd probably prefer something like baseball where you can either go pro straight out of high school or you have to stay in college three years.
    I would love the rule for basketball to be like the baseball rule.You want to go high school to NBA have at it. But if you sign on the dotted line to attend college you remain for 3 years minimum. It would bring stability to college basketball and I personally could care less about the NBA.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Silicon Valley
    Quote Originally Posted by wsb3 View Post
    I would love the rule for basketball to be like the baseball rule.You want to go high school to NBA have at it. But if you sign on the dotted line to attend college you remain for 3 years minimum. It would bring stability to college basketball and I personally could care less about the NBA.
    Two questions, because I hear a lot of people say this.

    1. Why three and not four? Three has absolutely no meaning. Four is the number of years it typically takes to get a bachelor's degree.

    2. Why not just go back to the old system, which was basically the same thing? If you are a one-and-doner in the current system, you're just going to go directly. If you aren't, you're probably going to stay for at least three years anyway. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but they seem to have worked out OK. (Luol / Corey)

    Not trying to antagonize. Just wondering.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Carolina Beach

    3

    Quote Originally Posted by anon View Post
    Two questions, because I hear a lot of people say this.

    1. Why three and not four? Three has absolutely no meaning. Four is the number of years it typically takes to get a bachelor's degree.

    2. Why not just go back to the old system, which was basically the same thing? If you are a one-and-doner in the current system, you're just going to go directly. If you aren't, you're probably going to stay for at least three years anyway. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but they seem to have worked out OK. (Luol / Corey)

    Not trying to antagonize. Just wondering.
    Three years should get someone pretty close to a degree and even if they left hopefully many would want to obtain their degree. Also and I don't know that it has anything to do with this but I wonder if baseball went with the 3 years because it in most cases it would coincide with being age 21. I don't know that we will ever see it but I would love it if we followed the baseball rule. I think it is the most we could ever hope for but what may happen next is they have to stay two years. That seems to be the one rule change that is mentioned most. Regardless if they have no interest in going to school and are good enough go straight to the NBA.

    One and done also creates a hired gun where some kids have zero interest in school and just try to stay eligible. Not at Duke which add that to the list of things I love about Duke.

  13. #13
    It might depend on what a one and done brings to the program in terms of success. KI was a great talent but the team did make the Sweet 16 last year basically without him and I never like the way Nolan's Duke time ended. He was doing a good job at the point and "Zona was a matchup problem for Duke with or without Irving. It might also depend on the team that the one and done joins. There was no way that AR was going to push this team over the top. He was good but not overwhelming and the players around him were not exactly vintage Duke. It was a lot different with Syracuse in 03 when Melo had a group of solid players around him. I am not trying to diminish this year's team but it was a bit sub-par and K did a whale of a job getting what he did out of them. I don't like the rule but what is a coach to do? He has to go after them and land them once in a while to keep the program relevant and on the national radar.

    There is a good read on ESPN.com about the impact it will have if UK wins it all with its one and dones. It aint pretty IMO.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Atlanta
    This thread will stop if the NCAA enforces this graduation rate rule. If they do teams like UK will be screwed because they would have a graduation rate of about 10 percent or so. Then again UK could allow they too take basket weaving online so that they can get a degree later

  15. #15
    I believe that the whole system is broken. I will say up front that I do not expect many to share my feelings.

    I think it is obscene that NBA players and professional athletes in general make the amount of money they make. I know, I know, they make what the market will bear and I am a capitalist at heart so I understand what is happening. But, I don't like it. Teachers, police, fire, EMT, nurses, military personnel and yes even doctors earn way less money over their careers than most NBA players, even the ones that never make it big. To me something is wrong with this. I am not saying that other professions should make as much, but I do question why we value watching guys play a game way more than we do other less exciting yet much more meaningful professions. Is it (the NBA) really that entertaining??

    I have heard the argument that they need to earn big dollars because their careers are short. My logic to that is, well get another job when you are done playing ball... who says that you need to earn enough money in 10 years so that you never have to work again? Are you telling me that Steve Nash will be unable to hold a job in the next 5 years after he retires? I spent 20 years in the Navy and retired, but guess what? I got another job and work about 50 hours a week because I have to in order to put two kids through college...

    Sometimes I am an old grumpy man, this is one of those times. I can see a day in this country when the economy gets so bad that things like the NBA, NFL, MLB etc... will be luxuries that we cannot afford. I hope I am wrong, but I think it will not be long before they price themselves out of jobs. The average person cannot afford to go to a game now...

    I think college should be for education. I think that if everyone spent as little (zero in direct $) on the NBA then the players would be making a lot less money and more likely to stay in college so they would be thankful they were able to get a "free" education that they can use in their second career after the playing days are over.

    Getting down off the soap box now... thanks for letting me vent.

  16. #16

    New York Times

    Joe Nocera's take is worth a read:

    It was amusing this week to watch [incoming NCAA president Mark] Emmert trot out “the collegiate model” as he was confronted with the reality of the “one and done” freshman. “One and done” freshmen — or players who have no interest in college and are enrolling only until they turn 19 and become eligible for the professional draft — have been a hot topic in the runup to this weekend’s Final Four. That’s because John Calipari, the Kentucky coach, has become the master of recruiting them — and his team is favored to win the championship. Calipari is completely upfront about what he is doing: He is gaming the system by bringing in players who need a way station until they are old enough to turn pro. Indeed, Calipari tells them when he is recruiting them that he doesn’t expect them to stay for more than a year.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/31/op...s.html?_r=1&hp

  17. #17
    As a matter of principle, I find the idea of preventing people from going to the NBA straight out of high school, or at any other point at which they want to and at which an NBA team would hire them, objectionable. Talk of requiring two years of college, or players to sign contracts that would require them to pay penalties to schools if they leave before three years, strikes me as deeply wrong.

    Obviously, not everyone shares my values and perspective on those matters. But even from the narrow self-interest of a college basketball fan, I find these “solutions” highly questionable. Here’s why:

    The more you force or coerce players who don’t want to be in college to stay in college, the more you have college basketball teams made up of players who don’t want to be on college basketball teams.

    That’s something college basketball fans want?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    Joe Nocera's take is worth a read:

    It was amusing this week to watch [incoming NCAA president Mark] Emmert trot out “the collegiate model” as he was confronted with the reality of the “one and done” freshman. “One and done” freshmen — or players who have no interest in college and are enrolling only until they turn 19 and become eligible for the professional draft — have been a hot topic in the runup to this weekend’s Final Four. That’s because John Calipari, the Kentucky coach, has become the master of recruiting them — and his team is favored to win the championship. Calipari is completely upfront about what he is doing: He is gaming the system by bringing in players who need a way station until they are old enough to turn pro. Indeed, Calipari tells them when he is recruiting them that he doesn’t expect them to stay for more than a year.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/31/op...s.html?_r=1&hp
    And of course, Stern believes it's the colleges that should do better.

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...ge-basketball/

  19. #19
    Not a fan of the 1 & done rule but it's the rule. Yes it was nice having Kyrie & Austin for a year. Thing is the past 2 years having 1 & doners we failed to make it out of the second round last year & this year was...nevermind.

    2010 team had zero 1 & doners. I am kind of partial to the 2010 team. Yes Austin & Kyrie gave us some great moments but nothing comes close to cutting nets at Indy. Neither can ever be a Nolan Smith to me because I never got the chance to enjoy them for 4 years. Yes they are part of the Duke family & I will shut-up until Midnite Madness.

    Have a great summer everyone!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

    Heartily agree and....

    Quote Originally Posted by oldnavy View Post
    I believe that the whole system is broken. I will say up front that I do not expect many to share my feelings.

    I think it is obscene that NBA players and professional athletes in general make the amount of money they make. I know, I know, they make what the market will bear and I am a capitalist at heart so I understand what is happening. But, I don't like it. Teachers, police, fire, EMT, nurses, military personnel and yes even doctors earn way less money over their careers than most NBA players, even the ones that never make it big. To me something is wrong with this. I am not saying that other professions should make as much, but I do question why we value watching guys play a game way more than we do other less exciting yet much more meaningful professions. Is it (the NBA) really that entertaining??

    I have heard the argument that they need to earn big dollars because their careers are short. My logic to that is, well get another job when you are done playing ball... who says that you need to earn enough money in 10 years so that you never have to work again? Are you telling me that Steve Nash will be unable to hold a job in the next 5 years after he retires? I spent 20 years in the Navy and retired, but guess what? I got another job and work about 50 hours a week because I have to in order to put two kids through college...

    Sometimes I am an old grumpy man, this is one of those times. I can see a day in this country when the economy gets so bad that things like the NBA, NFL, MLB etc... will be luxuries that we cannot afford. I hope I am wrong, but I think it will not be long before they price themselves out of jobs. The average person cannot afford to go to a game now...

    I think college should be for education. I think that if everyone spent as little (zero in direct $) on the NBA then the players would be making a lot less money and more likely to stay in college so they would be thankful they were able to get a "free" education that they can use in their second career after the playing days are over.

    Getting down off the soap box now... thanks for letting me vent.
    .....bring back the frosh ineligibility rule, and the rest will take care of iteslf.

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