Having to go to UNC as a Duke Fan

[-jk]

Yes I might, but they will not let me know until June. All college deposits are due May 1 and housing plans few weeks later. So It would be such a hassle and $$ to switch.



Wake, Davidson and UNC. Waiting for Wake's financial package.



Yes I have. It just depends on how I start off at UNC. What do you recommend me sending to Duke to ensure them I am still strongly interested?

Thanks for everyone and their insight. Providing great advice to consider.

Well, that's easy - Davidson is also part of the Duke family.

-jk

[cspan37421]

Wake, Davidson and UNC. Waiting for Wake's financial package.

My wife attended Wake, as well as a some of our friends (who were originally her friends from college). All are very accomplished now. She does not recall ever having a TA/grad student teach a class. She felt the teaching quality there was excellent, and twenty(censored) years later she still stays in touch with her math advisor. Things may have changed, but I doubt it - not that much. The downside is that there's next to nothing around Wake's campus unless you have a car - and that's increasingly hard as during a recent visit DD and I were told that a particular parking lot would be removed to put up a new dorm, to accommodate a modest increase in the undergraduate population.

Teaching quality isn't the only thing you're buying, but it's arguably the most important single thing. I suspect you'd find teaching quality excellent at Davidson as well. I have a good friend from CLT who went there. I'm not sure I'd pick UNC over either of those unless financial circumstances dictated it. Granted, it does appear that UNC-CH is considerably selective now (and I would bet, more selective than in the 80s when I knew some folks there), but I still suspect you could get stuck with a lot of grad student teaching in your first couple years - which can be OK, is seldom great, and not infrequently bad.

[diablesseblu]

News to me. Charlie was a classmate. I knew him for four years, and he was president of the sophomore class. Moreover, he was a memeber of BOS, based on achievements in the freshman year.

sagegrouse

You'll not be surprised to hear that the people who shared this are "Carolina people". Who knows, maybe Charlie was admitted of the wait list and UNC had been his backup?

[diablesseblu]

Yes I have. It just depends on how I start off at UNC. What do you recommend me sending to Duke to ensure them I am still strongly interested?

Thanks for everyone and their insight. Providing great advice to consider.

1. Check on Duke's policy about additional credentials. If permissible, I would send a personal letter to affirm my continued interest.

2. Also, if there is an additional adult (only one) who knows you well (and was not one of your original recs), have them write. (The office will be inundated with calls etc. on students' behalfs.) Anyone writing at this point must be willing/able to commit time to this effort. Additionally, his/her letter must be candid about who you are personally and what you can contribute to the Duke community. As an example, I wrote to Christoph one time for a Duke WL candidate. My letter contained information about how she had coped with a tough family situation. Framed the information within the context of how she could bring people together. She was eventually admitted and did exceedingly well.

3. On another WL note, I once did an extensive study of WL candidates who were admitted and their academic performance relative to regular admits. The WL kids outperformed their counterparts. (BTW, I did the study as a teaching tool for our younger professional staff.) We also did an informal canvas of the backgrounds of those who volunteered to help in the admissions office. The WL candidates were disproportionately represented.

Best of luck with wherever your path takes you.

[Highlander]

Yes I might, but they will not let me know until June. All college deposits are due May 1 and housing plans few weeks later. So It would be such a hassle and $$ to switch.

Look at it this way - is it worth a couple hundred dollars to confirm a spot in UNC's class? If you get through on a wait list at another school, you forfeit the $, but you always have a spot. Given that Duke is well over $50K per year, that's a pretty small investment to forfeit.

I did the same thing at NC State, and had planned to go there until I was accepted at Duke in late spring...

[sagegrouse]

Yes I have. It just depends on how I start off at UNC. What do you recommend me sending to Duke to ensure them I am still strongly interested?

Thanks for everyone and their insight. Providing great advice to consider.

Call the admissions office and speak to a counselor. Tell them directly.

The other thing I heard was a kid on the waitlist at Wake who decided to enroll in ROTC, and the unit commander got him admitted. Wow!! Double wow!!

Also, are you likely to be competitive in a varsity sport?

sagegrouse

[Native]

Wake, Davidson and UNC. Waiting for Wake's financial package.

FWIW, my grandfather teaches at Duke's Fuqua School of Business and was actually a former Dean — he once told me that Duke graduate school admissions loves applicants from Davidson. Every time Davidson plays in Cameron there's a ton of red and white in the graduate student sections.

Granted, you shouldn't base your entire choice on that, but my point is that there's always graduate school.

[devildeac]

My daughter starts med school there in August. I have a pair of Duke scrubs I will loan her. I'll let y'all know how long she stays out of prison.

[throatybeard]

I took two classes at UNC through the consortium that predated Robertson. I always felt like I was fighter pilot who had been shot down behind enemy lines.

My teachers at Carolina were a somewhat hapless grad student who I've since heard improved A LOT, and a world-class syntactician who later repaired to his homeland of Germany.

At any research university, you're going to get some OK teachers and some really amazing ones and maybe a small number of lousy ones. Teaching is not valued or rewarded at research universities, by and large, but for this emerging classification of teaching professors. Thinking that you're going to get a markedly different quality of teaching at Davidson vs Duke vs UNC is just not accurate. Even liberal arts colleges like Davidson are requiring a lot more research. By and large you're going to see faculty whose incentive structure penalizes spending time on teaching. And a bunch of them still will spend a lot of time on teaching because they love it.

The one difference between schools w/r/t to teaching is that some research universities are much more serious about getting senior faculty out in front of the Undergrads. When I was a kid, the book was that Duke and Princeton did a better job of that than most of the rest of the private schools in the top XX. I had some amazing teachers at Duke and some pretty pedestrian ones. I say this estimating them as my current self as 35 and as faculty--I'm not reporting my evaluation of them when I was 19.

The top XX is a pretty insulting notion to people who work in this field, BTW, because getting jobs in Higher Ed is so insanely selective that there are amazing faculty at just about any four year school you've ever heard of. When I was at Mississippi State, we had the top dude in the world on Faulkner. At UMSL, we've got the top dude in the world on Literary Darwinism. Neither is/was the most popular teacher in the Dept, though the students and faculty massively respect both. Is it Duke English? No, but the delta is a whole lot smaller than the public thinks.

I'm fantastic at teaching and service* and maybe barely adequate for my current school at research. There were 125 applications for my current job. They did a search for a poet at MSU. There were like 250 applications. Not Duke. Not Princeton. Mississippi State, the sort of place Duke fans snottily dismiss as "not an academic school." We're talking about run-of-the-mill state schools where the kids average a 24 ACT. If you're at a four year school anyone has every heard of, the faculty are amazing by and large. And the faculty are amazing at some of the ones you haven't heard of. You probably haven't heard of my school. We've got the Darwin dude. A guy with 20 books just retired. The Dept Head has won a Guggenheim for his work on Kazin. We've got one of the top Irish Studies people in the world. Dept Head's wife has written more books than he has, mostly on Southern Lit. Most of the Fulls have about five books and most are pretty good teachers, from what the kids tell me. There's a guy who is a teaching professor and has won multiple awards for being like basically the best teacher at the dang school. I could go on, but I have immense respect for my senior colleagues, and almost all of them are amazing. And nobody but Lavabe on this board ever heard of this school until I came here and started talking about it. Well the St Louis folk. Rasputin, Kexman.

When I was a student for ten years (1994-2004) in three different degree programs at Duke and NC State, I had every possible permutation of [great/lousy] [senior research faculty/junior research faculty/grad students]. (The teaching professor category hadn't really emerged at that time).

My advice to the OP would be simply, which school do you like the best? Go there. It's undergrad. If you're talented enough, you can be the best student at Campbell and then sex up your pedigree in graduate/professional school. As for other considerations--cost, prestige, culture--those are largely separate from the quality of teaching you'll get at any of those three schools. If you're worried about which schools the top I-banking firms hire from, that's it's own concern. But you're not going to get wildly better teaching at Duke than at Carolina or Davidson, if at all.


* - that sounds arrogant, I know. Sorry. Teaching is a very humbling profession and I'm a very insecure person, so if I can admit that I'm really good at something, it's probably true.

[sagegrouse]

I took two classes at UNC through the consortium that predated Robertson. I always felt like I was fighter pilot who had been shot down behind enemy lines.

My teachers at Carolina were a somewhat hapless grad student who I've since heard improved A LOT, and a world-class syntactician who later repaired to his homeland of Germany.

At any research university, you're going to get some OK teachers and some really amazing ones and maybe a small number of lousy ones. Teaching is not valued or rewarded at research universities, by and large, but for this emerging classification of teaching professors. Thinking that you're going to get a markedly different quality of teaching at Davidson vs Duke vs UNC is just not accurate. Even liberal arts colleges like Davidson are requiring a lot more research. By and large you're going to see faculty whose incentive structure penalizes spending time on teaching. And a bunch of them still will spend a lot of time on teaching because they love it.

The one difference between schools w/r/t to teaching is that some research universities are much more serious about getting senior faculty out in front of the Undergrads. When I was a kid, the book was that Duke and Princeton did a better job of that than most of the rest of the private schools in the top XX. I had some amazing teachers at Duke and some pretty pedestrian ones. I say this estimating them as my current self as 35 and as faculty--I'm not reporting my evaluation of them when I was 19.

The top XX is a pretty insulting notion to people who work in this field, BTW, because getting jobs in Higher Ed is so insanely selective that there are amazing faculty at just about any four year school you've ever heard of. When I was at Mississippi State, we had the top dude in the world on Faulkner. At UMSL, we've got the top dude in the world on Literary Darwinism. Neither is/was the most popular teacher in the Dept, though the students and faculty massively respect both. Is it Duke English? No, but the delta is a whole lot smaller than the public thinks.

I'm fantastic at teaching and service* and maybe barely adequate for my current school at research. There were 125 applications for my current job. They did a search for a poet at MSU. There were like 250 applications. Not Duke. Not Princeton. Mississippi State, the sort of place Duke fans snottily dismiss as "not an academic school." We're talking about run-of-the-mill state schools where the kids average a 24 ACT. If you're at a four year school anyone has every heard of, the faculty are amazing by and large. And the faculty are amazing at some of the ones you haven't heard of. You probably haven't heard of my school. We've got the Darwin dude. A guy with 20 books just retired. The Dept Head has won a Guggenheim for his work on Kazin. We've got one of the top Irish Studies people in the world. Dept Head's wife has written more books than he has, mostly on Southern Lit. Most of the Fulls have about five books and most are pretty good teachers, from what the kids tell me. There's a guy who is a teaching professor and has won multiple awards for being like basically the best teacher at the dang school. I could go on, but I have immense respect for my senior colleagues, and almost all of them are amazing. And nobody but Lavabe on this board ever heard of this school until I came here and started talking about it. Well the St Louis folk. Rasputin, Kexman.

When I was a student for ten years (1994-2004) in three different degree programs at Duke and NC State, I had every possible permutation of [great/lousy] [senior research faculty/junior research faculty/grad students]. (The teaching professor category hadn't really emerged at that time).

My advice to the OP would be simply, which school do you like the best? Go there. It's undergrad. If you're talented enough, you can be the best student at Campbell and then sex up your pedigree in graduate/professional school. As for other considerations--cost, prestige, culture--those are largely separate from the quality of teaching you'll get at any of those three schools. If you're worried about which schools the top I-banking firms hire from, that's it's own concern. But you're not going to get wildly better teaching at Duke than at Carolina or Davidson, if at all.


* - that sounds arrogant, I know. Sorry. Teaching is a very humbling profession and I'm a very insecure person, so if I can admit that I'm really good at something, it's probably true.

The other point I would make is that residential life really matters. When I was a grad student at Rice, I knew a lot of the undergrads who were townies, living at home in Houston and commuting to campus. It seemed to me that over 3-4 years they changed and grew up much less than the Rice kids living in the dorms, surrounded by their peers. And yet, having benefited from dorm life at Duke, I can hardly imagine what is was that was so helpful, in that we were mostly cutting up and drinking beer.

sagegropuse
'Actually, for accuracy, Rice has residential colleges, not dorms, and at least one faculty family lives and dines with the students'

[throatybeard]

The other point I would make is that residential life really matters. When I was a grad student at Rice, I knew a lot of the undergrads who were townies, living at home in Houston and commuting to campus. It seemed to me that over 3-4 years they changed and grew up much less than the Rice kids living in the dorms, surrounded by their peers. And yet, having benefited from dorm life at Duke, I can hardly imagine what is was that was so helpful, in that we were mostly cutting up and drinking beer.

sagegropuse
'Actually, for accuracy, Rice has residential colleges, not dorms, and at least one faculty family lives and dines with the students'

This is a good point. Duke's residential character is a huge part of its culture. Campus is your home.

[cspan37421]

The other point I would make is that residential life really matters. When I was a grad student at Rice, I knew a lot of the undergrads who were townies, living at home in Houston and commuting to campus. It seemed to me that over 3-4 years they changed and grew up much less than the Rice kids living in the dorms, surrounded by their peers. And yet, having benefited from dorm life at Duke, I can hardly imagine what is was that was so helpful, in that we were mostly cutting up and drinking beer.

sagegropuse
'Actually, for accuracy, Rice has residential colleges, not dorms, and at least one faculty family lives and dines with the students'

Is that a fair point of comparison though? It's no surprise to me that undergraduates living at home and commuting didn't mature as much as kids living in the dorms. They probably didn't have to take much responsibility. What about kids who lived off campus but not with their parents? I would imagine they might grow up even more than kids in dorms ... because they have to clean their own bathrooms, get (some of) their own food, etc.

I'm not saying there's no other benefit to dorm life - forging lasting friendships and bonds with your classmates is definitely easier that way - but I wouldn't think maturity would be more fostered than living on your own.

Just a thought from a Dukie who was 2 yrs in dorms, 1 yr in Central Campus Apts, 1 year off campus. Not in that order.

[sagegrouse]

Is that a fair point of comparison though? It's no surprise to me that undergraduates living at home and commuting didn't mature as much as kids living in the dorms. They probably didn't have to take much responsibility. What about kids who lived off campus but not with their parents? I would imagine they might grow up even more than kids in dorms ... because they have to clean their own bathrooms, get (some of) their own food, etc.

I'm not saying there's no other benefit to dorm life - forging lasting friendships and bonds with your classmates is definitely easier that way - but I wouldn't think maturity would be more fostered than living on your own.

Just a thought from a Dukie who was 2 yrs in dorms, 1 yr in Central Campus Apts, 1 year off campus. Not in that order.

It was a homily that I give from time to time. Let me elaborate --

I think it is the socia and intellectual interactions with a peer group that is probably more interesting than your younger siblings and your HS friends. In that sense, it does matter where you go to school. I would like to think that Duke offers a richer environment than most other schools due to peer-to-peer interactions, the general motivation of the students, as well as the measurable academic environment. Throatybeard made the point that faculties are outstanding in many schools and would expect the teaching to be equally good. I agree but offered a different slant on the college experience.

I was thinking more of intellectual maturity and development of social skills than of the lessons of self-reliance, although those are important too.

sagegrouse