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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think you're underestimating the talent gap between the NBA and college. See my post above. Consider these guys from a college perspective - not relative to the NBA players.

    The NBA has so much talent that it makes really good players look pedestrian. Those guys would be monsters in the college game. Heck, many of them WERE monsters in the college game.
    I don't agree that the list of players you put forth consist of people who would, today, be "monsters in the college game." Other than John Wall, each of those players was inconsistent during their college careers and were far from "monsters" in my eyes, many of them particularly so. John Wall even appears to have regressed during his time in the NBA. Shelvin Mack was awesome come tourney time, but unless my memory is really doing me a disservice, Trevor Booker, Maurice Evans, Roger Mason, and Chris Singleton don't make me nervous at all. I'm not saying these players are only worth a cup of coffee and a doughnut, I'm just saying I think you're overestimating the talent gap between bad NBA teams (the Wizards and Bobcats seem to be bad in a historical way) and college.

    Perhaps EA Sports can come out and do an automated test of this hypo? Would be kind of fun!

  2. #22
    I feel like I need to have the same conversation with Gary Williams that I often have with my six year old: "No, son, Duke won't EVER play the Panthers, because the Duke players are young college students like your brother, and the Panthers are adults who work like mommy and daddy." ;-)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    I don't agree that the list of players you put forth consist of people who would, today, be "monsters in the college game." Other than John Wall, each of those players was inconsistent during their college careers and were far from "monsters" in my eyes, many of them particularly so. John Wall even appears to have regressed during his time in the NBA. Shelvin Mack was awesome come tourney time, but unless my memory is really doing me a disservice, Trevor Booker, Maurice Evans, Roger Mason, and Chris Singleton don't make me nervous at all. I'm not saying these players are only worth a cup of coffee and a doughnut, I'm just saying I think you're overestimating the talent gap between bad NBA teams (the Wizards and Bobcats seem to be bad in a historical way) and college.

    Perhaps EA Sports can come out and do an automated test of this hypo? Would be kind of fun!
    Crawford averaged 20+ ppg at Xavier. Booker averaged 15+ ppg and 8+ rpg in both his junior and senior year and never averaged below 10 and 6. Evans averaged 22+ ppg at Wichita St as a sophomore and 15+ ppg as a junior at Texas. Shelvin Mack averaged 14ppg and 16ppg and was one of the primary stars in leading two Butler teams to the Final Four. Chris Singleton was widely regarded as the best defensive player in the ACC in his last two years in college. Roger Mason averaged 15 ppg as a sophomore and 18 ppg as a junior at Virginia. Brian Cook averaged 20ppg for Illinois. Forgive me if I think your memory of those players is a bit fuzzy. They were unquestionably stars in college. Wall only looks like he regressed because he's playing against NBA talent. And that's still ignoring guys like Nene, Blatche, Seraphin, Vesely, and Lewis, who would have been stars in college had they come to college and not gone straight to the NBA (or to the NBA via foreign pro teams).

    I think you're letting the view of their NBA careers mislead you. The NBA has a way of making really good basketball players look mediocre. Don't let that fool you. Battier was a stud in college. In the NBA he's a role player. Redick was a dominant college scorer. Williams was All-American caliber in college. They're all role players in the NBA. It's a different world.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Fair point -- I don't think they *would* win. Agree that they certainly could, and would be favored by hypothetical pundits to do so. Just don't think they would win.
    I agree. COULD they win, yes. Hey, I'm a dreamer. WOULD they win? Lol...the odds are strongly against it.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I think you're letting the view of their NBA careers mislead you. The NBA has a way of making really good basketball players look mediocre. Don't let that fool you. Battier was a stud in college. In the NBA he's a role player. Redick was a dominant college scorer. Williams was All-American caliber in college. They're all role players in the NBA. It's a different world.

    Yeah, plus we're not talking about the college version of these players, we're talking about playing them RIGHT NOW. These guys have been in the NBA for a couple years where they've continued to develop their games and get stronger and quicker, practicing against the best players and being catered to by professional training staffs. The college guys have raw talent but they're also still 19-ish years old.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Crawford averaged 20+ ppg at Xavier. Booker averaged 15+ ppg and 8+ rpg in both his junior and senior year and never averaged below 10 and 6. Evans averaged 22+ ppg at Wichita St as a sophomore and 15+ ppg as a junior at Texas. Shelvin Mack averaged 14ppg and 16ppg and was one of the primary stars in leading two Butler teams to the Final Four. Chris Singleton was widely regarded as the best defensive player in the ACC in his last two years in college. Roger Mason averaged 15 ppg as a sophomore and 18 ppg as a junior at Virginia. Brian Cook averaged 20ppg for Illinois. Forgive me if I think your memory of those players is a bit fuzzy. They were unquestionably stars in college. Wall only looks like he regressed because he's playing against NBA talent. And that's still ignoring guys like Nene, Blatche, Seraphin, Vesely, and Lewis, who would have been stars in college had they come to college and not gone straight to the NBA (or to the NBA via foreign pro teams).

    I think you're letting the view of their NBA careers mislead you. The NBA has a way of making really good basketball players look mediocre. Don't let that fool you. Battier was a stud in college. In the NBA he's a role player. Redick was a dominant college scorer. Williams was All-American caliber in college. They're all role players in the NBA. It's a different world.
    You described them as "monsters" of the college game. None were in my mind. Their stats don't change that fact. Particularly Brian Cook's (which I was surprised to see, but he doesn't impress me, sorry).

    (As an side, you didn't mention Jordan Crawford in your original post, and I failed to remember he was even on the Wizards' roster; I also failed to remember Nene's presence. To be clear, I did not dispute Shelvin Mack's talent, but do believe he played inconsistently leading up to tourney time -- and I watched Butler's games because they were so fun to see.)

    Still don't think the Wizards would win. I've never seen an NBA team appear to care so little. Just my opinion.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Crawford averaged 20+ ppg at Xavier. Booker averaged 15+ ppg and 8+ rpg in both his junior and senior year and never averaged below 10 and 6. Evans averaged 22+ ppg at Wichita St as a sophomore and 15+ ppg as a junior at Texas. Shelvin Mack averaged 14ppg and 16ppg and was one of the primary stars in leading two Butler teams to the Final Four. Chris Singleton was widely regarded as the best defensive player in the ACC in his last two years in college. Roger Mason averaged 15 ppg as a sophomore and 18 ppg as a junior at Virginia. Brian Cook averaged 20ppg for Illinois. Forgive me if I think your memory of those players is a bit fuzzy. They were unquestionably stars in college. Wall only looks like he regressed because he's playing against NBA talent. And that's still ignoring guys like Nene, Blatche, Seraphin, Vesely, and Lewis, who would have been stars in college had they come to college and not gone straight to the NBA (or to the NBA via foreign pro teams).

    I think you're letting the view of their NBA careers mislead you. The NBA has a way of making really good basketball players look mediocre. Don't let that fool you. Battier was a stud in college. In the NBA he's a role player. Redick was a dominant college scorer. Williams was All-American caliber in college. They're all role players in the NBA. It's a different world.
    To put it another way. Imagine this lineup:
    6'9", 230lb, 20ppg, 7.6rpg, Big Ten PoY, 2nd Team All-American
    6'7", 240lb, 15.2ppg, 8.4rpg, 1.5bpg, 1st Team All-ACC, 2nd Team All-ACC as a junior
    6'8", 230lb, 13.1ppg, 6.8rpg, 2.0spg, 1.5bpg, 3rd Team All-ACC, ACC DPoY
    6'5", 200lb, 18.6ppg, 4.1apg, 3rd Team All-ACC
    6'3", 215lb, 16.0ppg, 3.4apg, starred on two NCAA Finalist teams
    7'0", 235lb, 9.4ppg, 7.1rpg, 4.5bpg, Big East DPoY
    6'5", 220lb, 15.6ppg, 5.3rpg, 3rd Team All Big-12
    6'4", 195lb, 20.5ppg, 3rd Team All-American, famously dunked on LeBron James

    Think that a team with that talent wouldn't be among the favorites come tourney time? I sure do. And that group is a bunch of role players or end of the bench guys on one of the worst teams in the NBA.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    You described them as "monsters" of the college game. None were in my mind. Their stats don't change that fact. Particularly Brian Cook's (which I was surprised to see, but he doesn't impress me, sorry).

    (As an side, you didn't mention Jordan Crawford in your original post, and I failed to remember he was even on the Wizards' roster; I also failed to remember Nene's presence. To be clear, I did not dispute Shelvin Mack's talent, but do believe he played inconsistently leading up to tourney time -- and I watched Butler's games because they were so fun to see.)

    Still don't think the Wizards would win. I've never seen an NBA team appear to care so little. Just my opinion.
    Actually, I did mention Crawford. And Nene. And while you don't think those guys were great college players, the facts disagree with you. All but one of them were All-Conference (some multiple times). Two were major conference defensive players of the year and others were all-conference defensively. Two were All-Americans. Several were first round picks. And none are major players on one of the worst teams in the league. And that's ignoring Wall, Nene, Blatche, and Rashard Lewis.

    They may not look like they care at the NBA level. But they'd smoke pretty much everyone in college basketball without thinking twice.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Think that a team with that talent wouldn't be among the favorites come tourney time? I sure do. And that group is a bunch of role players or end of the bench guys on one of the worst teams in the NBA.
    Let me understand your position then -- are you describing the Wizards as just "favorites" (as described above) or are you saying, as a collection of "monsters" of the college game, they would absolutely win the NCAA tourney (as you appear to be suggesting in other posts)? I may be misunderstanding you, but you appear to be transitioning from a Wizards-would-destroy-the-competition-100%-of-the-time, to just mere favored-status. As Duke fans all know, favorites don't always win National Championships.

    Which brings me back to my original hypothetical -- I have not said the Wizards wouldn't be favored, nor have I meant to imply the Wizards wouldn't be favored, in this year's NCAA tourney. All I'm opining on is that I don't think the Wizards would actually win this year's NCAA tourney.

  10. #30

    Had this same conversation regarding the Bobcats

    College rules; college refs; no money riding on the game (maybe that eliminates some teams ). Maybe win 1 out of ten. Just as an aside, since NBA players started playing for the USA team, who was the last college player to make the squad?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Actually, I did mention Crawford.
    You did not mention Crawford in the post I quoted. I now see you mentioned them earlier.

    You also seem to think 15 ppg make someone a "monster" who could "smoke" everyone in college basketball. Austin Rivers averaged 15 ppg and was first-team all ACC. I really like Austin's game, wish him well in the NBA and am extremely happy he chose Duke -- he's no "monster" and he could not "smoke" everyone in college basketball.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Let me understand your position then -- are you describing the Wizards as just "favorites" (as described above) or are you saying, as a collection of "monsters" of the college game, they would absolutely win the NCAA tourney (as you appear to be suggesting in other posts)? I may be misunderstanding you, but you appear to be transitioning from a Wizards-would-destroy-the-competition-100%-of-the-time, to just mere favored-status. As Duke fans all know, favorites don't always win National Championships.

    Which brings me back to my original hypothetical -- I have not said the Wizards wouldn't be favored, nor have I meant to imply the Wizards wouldn't be favored, in this year's NCAA tourney. All I'm opining on is that I don't think the Wizards would actually win this year's NCAA tourney.
    Well, nothing is 100%, so I'm not saying that. Almost anything can happen in a single-game elimination. But I'd say that the current Wizards' roster would be the absolute, hands-down, biggest favorites of any team in the history of the tournament, favorites. I'd say they'd be like a 80+% favorite to win it all. And that is a ludicrously high probability relative to what even the most heavily-favored teams get pre-tourney (even the most heavily-favored college teams aren't more than a 30-40% chance of winning).

    Their risk of losing in the first two weekends would be close to zero. They might be at a 5-10% chance of losing to a REALLY great college team in the Final Four. That's about it. They're so much bigger, faster, stronger, and loaded with more talent that even if they didn't care at first they'd pull it together and win against almost anybody.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Their risk of losing in the first two weekends would be close to zero. They might be at a 5-10% chance of losing to a REALLY great college team in the Final Four. That's about it. They're so much bigger, faster, stronger, and loaded with more talent that even if they didn't care at first they'd pull it together and win against almost anybody.
    I'm with you on the odds of a first round loss.

    I think they actually would have a 5-10% chance of losing to a hot team in the Elite 8.

    I put their odds in the Final Four (either in the semi's or the finals) at closer to 70/30 in the Wizards' favor, maybe 75/25.

    The reason I put so much stock in the "don't care" factor is one of the interesting discussions on PTI last night about how the Dream Team reacted to losing to some really great college stars (I believe in some short scrimmages). The Dream Team, as I recall, didn't care much and ended up losing... The next time they played, the story goes, they did not let the college players score. Not caring is a real killer in my mind. Particularly for the lowly Wizards.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    I'm with you on the odds of a first round loss.

    I think they actually would have a 5-10% chance of losing to a hot team in the Elite 8.

    I put their odds in the Final Four (either in the semi's or the finals) at closer to 70/30 in the Wizards' favor, maybe 75/25.

    The reason I put so much stock in the "don't care" factor is one of the interesting discussions on PTI last night about how the Dream Team reacted to losing to some really great college stars (I believe in some short scrimmages). The Dream Team, as I recall, didn't care much and ended up losing... The next time they played, the story goes, they did not let the college players score. Not caring is a real killer in my mind. Particularly for the lowly Wizards.
    Since this is an entirely hypothetical, imaginary tournament... can we not also hypothetically imagine that they would care?


    I love the off season.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacone21 View Post
    Since this is an entirely hypothetical, imaginary tournament... can we not also hypothetically imagine that they would care?


    I love the off season.
    Ha! Clearly you haven't subjected yourself to any Wizards games or you'd know caring is beyond even their hypothetical capabilities...

  16. #36
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    1992

    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    So here's another hypothetical - could a college ALL-STAR team, given a couple weeks to practice together, beat the Wizards or the Bobcats? You'd have Anthony David and MK Gilchrist, Perry Jones, a couple of the UNC guys... basically the entire draft lottery on one team. Now there's not quite as much of a physical mismatch, but of course you still have the difference in experience and maturity.
    Some of us will recall when the Dream Team, in preparation for the Olympics, scrimmaged against a group of college players, including Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Allen Houston, and Chris Webber. The collegians won the first scrimmage. The pros then woke up (among other things, they put Jordan on Hurley) and beat the collegians. So, yes, I think it is possible that a college all-star team could win that game, but you also have to remember that the college game is not as strong as it was 20 years ago, due to early entry.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    You did not mention Crawford in the post I quoted. I now see you mentioned them earlier.

    You also seem to think 15 ppg make someone a "monster" who could "smoke" everyone in college basketball. Austin Rivers averaged 15 ppg and was first-team all ACC. I really like Austin's game, wish him well in the NBA and am extremely happy he chose Duke -- he's no "monster" and he could not "smoke" everyone in college basketball.
    You quibble over the term "monster" and miss the forest for the trees. These guys were all All-Conference players. They were all among the best their conferences had to offer, and they played in big-time conferences. Two were All-Americans. And they're role players and end-of-bench guys on the Wizards. And you're going to argue whether or not they were "monsters?"

    Cook was a monster his senior year (one of the ten best players in college). Booker was a beast and two-time All-ACC. Mack was a college star. Evans was an Big-12. N'Diaye was the Big East DPoY. Singleton was All-ACC and ACC DPoY. Mason was 3rd Team All-ACC. Crawford was 3rd Team All-American (one of the 15 best in college). Whether or not you consider them monsters, they were college stars. And they'd be secondary players to guys who were (Wall) or would have been (Lewis, Blatche, Nene) monsters.

  18. #38
    Games aren't played on paper... The Wizards or Bobcats should easily beat Kentucky. Kentucky trailed for significant amounts of time against each of its 3 SEC tournament opponenets(losing to Vanderbilt). However, in a one done format or pick up game, Kentucky could pull off the major upset(especially if they shoot like they did against Georgia and have an effective transition game)

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post
    Games aren't played on paper... The Wizards or Bobcats should easily beat Kentucky. Kentucky trailed for significant amounts of time against each of its 3 SEC tournament opponenets(losing to Vanderbilt). However, in a one done format or pick up game, Kentucky could pull off the major upset(especially if they shoot like they did against Georgia and have an effective transition game)
    I absolutely agree that if the stars aligned Kentucky could beat the Wizards. But for the sake of argument, let's play the matchups game.

    Kentucky's strengths are that they are very long and athletic and have several capable scorers and ballhandlers. But they'd actually be at a size disadvantage against Washington. Nene is taller and MUCH stronger than Davis. Booker is as big and better than Jones at PF. Singleton isn't as good as Kidd-Gilchrist, but he's taller, longer, and an amazing defender. He'd give Kidd-Gilchrist fits. The alternative is Rashard Lewis, who is even taller than Singleton, though not as good defensively. At SG, Crawford is better than Doron Lamb. And Mason and Evans are better than Miller off the bench. Wall is far better than Teague at PG, and his backup (Mack) is also better.

    Think foul trouble inside could play a role? Brian Cook (a former All-American) would be the backup to Booker. Andray Blatche (6'11", 260, averaged 16.8ppg and 8rpg last year) steps in as Nene's backup. Not a huge dropoff there. Kevin Seraphin (a 6'9", 265lb beast) is the backup to those guys. And if things got really crazy at PF or C, Jan Vessely (a 6'11" lottery pick) is available for spot minutes. If Davis or Jones gets in foul trouble for Kentucky, you're looking at Vargas or Wiltjer. On the perimeter, the Wildcats have 4 guys for 3 spots. The Wizards run two All-Americans and a defensive stud out there and bring a 6'10" 15+ ppg NBA scorer off the bench along with three former All-conference players, all 6'3" or taller.

    The Wizards more than match up in terms of size, strength, athleticism, and talent across the board. And they're far deeper in terms of that talent. Basically, the Wildcats would have to hope it got in a track meet because in a half-court game they'd be turned into a 3pt shooting team. Davis isn't going to post up on Nene or Blatche with any success. Booker matches up very well athletically with Jones, as does Singleton. Singleton and Lewis provide great length and athleticism against Kidd-Gilchrist to try to minimize Kentucky's one advantage. The trio of Crawford, Mason, and Evans are better than Lamb and Miller. And the combo of Wall and Mack is better than than Teague.

    I don't see Kentucky being able to create the turnovers or win the battle on the glass enough to speed up the game. And in a half-court game the Wizards' superior size, strength, and athleticism would make life really really tough for the Cats. If they rain enough 3s and somehow keep Nene, Blatche, Booker, and company off the offensive boards, maybe they could win once in a rare while.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    You quibble over the term "monster" and miss the forest for the trees. These guys were all All-Conference players. They were all among the best their conferences had to offer, and they played in big-time conferences. Two were All-Americans. And they're role players and end-of-bench guys on the Wizards. And you're going to argue whether or not they were "monsters?"

    Cook was a monster his senior year (one of the ten best players in college). Booker was a beast and two-time All-ACC. Mack was a college star. Evans was an Big-12. N'Diaye was the Big East DPoY. Singleton was All-ACC and ACC DPoY. Mason was 3rd Team All-ACC. Crawford was 3rd Team All-American (one of the 15 best in college). Whether or not you consider them monsters, they were college stars. And they'd be secondary players to guys who were (Wall) or would have been (Lewis, Blatche, Nene) monsters.
    Take a look at Nick Collison, a former Jayhawk I follow. He had a "monster" performance against Duke in the 2003 tourney. 33 and 19. He was a great college player. He averages 20 minutes a game, and 4 points and 4 rebounds for the Thunder this year and has averaged 7 and 6 for his career. As you've said, it's just a whole other level. If you're a mediocre NBA player, you were likely insanely good in college.

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