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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Mount Kisco, NY
    A key point is that we shouldn't be comparing the kind of college players these guys were, we need to focus on the fact that they changed their bodies and games to make it in the NBA.

    For example, Orlando Magic JJ Redick would DESTROY Duke POY JJ Redick. Duke JJ Redick would not be able to breath as pro JJ Redick d'ed him up, and Duke JJ Redick would bounce of NBA JJ Redick as he tried to cover him thanks to the pounds of lean muscle he has added to his frame. Pro JJ would blow past college JJ as if his feet were mired in cement.

    That's why the Wizards would kill Kentucky, or any collection of college pros you put in front of them. It's also why, in 2 years, a 5 of Davis, Teague, Kidd-Gilchrest, Jones and Lamb could probably win a game against the current Wizards starting 5, they should all be pros and will have pro bodies and pro seasoning by then.

    It reminds me of the anecdote of Dahntay coming back to Duke during his rookie year in the NBA and doing whatever he wanted against our Final Four 2004 squad. The guys on the team couldn't get over the difference from his just being in the NBA for 4 months. It was like a man against boys.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    A key point is that we shouldn't be comparing the kind of college players these guys were, we need to focus on the fact that they changed their bodies and games to make it in the NBA.

    For example, Orlando Magic JJ Redick would DESTROY Duke POY JJ Redick. Duke JJ Redick would not be able to breath as pro JJ Redick d'ed him up, and Duke JJ Redick would bounce of NBA JJ Redick as he tried to cover him thanks to the pounds of lean muscle he has added to his frame. Pro JJ would blow past college JJ as if his feet were mired in cement.

    That's why the Wizards would kill Kentucky, or any collection of college pros you put in front of them. It's also why, in 2 years, a 5 of Davis, Teague, Kidd-Gilchrest, Jones and Lamb could probably win a game against the current Wizards starting 5, they should all be pros and will have pro bodies and pro seasoning by then.

    It reminds me of the anecdote of Dahntay coming back to Duke during his rookie year in the NBA and doing whatever he wanted against our Final Four 2004 squad. The guys on the team couldn't get over the difference from his just being in the NBA for 4 months. It was like a man against boys.
    You make a very good point about the physical and basketball development of the NBAers. However, I'd still favor the Wizards against the UK team with 2 years of development. The current UK team would have arguably two of the 3 best players on the court in such a game 2 years from now (Davis, Wall, and Kidd-Gilchrist as the top 3). But I'd take the Wizards for several of the rest of the spots (Nene, Crawford, Lewis, Jones, Blatche, Booker, Singleton, Lamb, Teague, Evans, Mason, Mack, Miller, Seraphin, Vessely). The height and athleticism still favors the Wizards. But it'd be a much better game then, for sure.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    For example, Orlando Magic JJ Redick would DESTROY Duke POY JJ Redick. Duke JJ Redick would not be able to breath as pro JJ Redick d'ed him up, and Duke JJ Redick would bounce of NBA JJ Redick as he tried to cover him thanks to the pounds of lean muscle he has added to his frame. Pro JJ would blow past college JJ as if his feet were mired in cement.
    This reminds me of playing NBA Jam and having the same guys on opposite teams playing against each other. Imagine JJ and Gerald Henderson going against their former selves; those two have developed so much since their time here.

    As an aside, this also provides an argument for guys leaving early rather than staying in college to continue developing. The rate at which they can develop in the NBA is much, much faster, with the strong caveat that they have to be good enough to stay on a roster and be given a chance. If they fall below that threshold they'll likely drop out of the league and wish they had stayed in college.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    As an aside, this also provides an argument for guys leaving early rather than staying in college to continue developing. The rate at which they can develop in the NBA is much, much faster, with the strong caveat that they have to be good enough to stay on a roster and be given a chance. If they fall below that threshold they'll likely drop out of the league and wish they had stayed in college.
    Good point, and it's a really fine line. While the pros were not banging down JJ's door after his first two years, he probably could have left after his junior year. His subpar NCAA performances probably helped keep him at Duke. But, I think his success helped him develop a swagger that helped him become a solid pro. Granted, he had to spend a few years figuring out how to be an effective pro, and how to forget the POY JJ in order to realize that he needed to become a different player to stick in the NBA, but being a star in college gave him that confidence, and I'd hope K and the staff had more than a little to do with instilling the work ethic required to be a pro.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Ha! Clearly you haven't subjected yourself to any Wizards games or you'd know caring is beyond even their hypothetical capabilities...
    If you told the Wizards that many people don't think they're good enough to beat a college team, then scheduled the game, they would definitely care.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    Good point, and it's a really fine line. While the pros were not banging down JJ's door after his first two years, he probably could have left after his junior year. His subpar NCAA performances probably helped keep him at Duke. But, I think his success helped him develop a swagger that helped him become a solid pro. Granted, he had to spend a few years figuring out how to be an effective pro, and how to forget the POY JJ in order to realize that he needed to become a different player to stick in the NBA, but being a star in college gave him that confidence, and I'd hope K and the staff had more than a little to do with instilling the work ethic required to be a pro.
    The main difference is that Redick got himself a sure-fire mid 1st round draft pick by staying. Had he gone as a junior, he ran the risk of going in the second round (which is the danger zone for a player's NBA security). He may have developed faster had he gone early IF he latched on with a team. But by waiting he assured himself three years of NBA time to develop at a different pace.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    If you told the Wizards that many people don't think they're good enough to beat a college team, then scheduled the game, they would definitely care.
    Good point. The Wizards don't care because they aren't as good as the other NBA teams. It's hard to stay motivated when you're consistently losing. Make them the top dog and it is a different story.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    We had this conversation on this very site ten years ago about the Duke Blue Devils and a particularly sad-sack Chicago Bulls team.

    Duke lost to Indiana in the S16.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    We had this conversation on this very site ten years ago about the Duke Blue Devils and a particularly sad-sack Chicago Bulls team.

    Duke lost to Indiana in the S16.
    that Indiana team would have run those Bulls off the court! Ironically 3/5 of that Duke team bacame Bulls eventually.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Chicago College All-Star Game

    Ok, this thread got me curious about something I thought I had heard about... I couldn't remember if the sport was football or basketball but wikipedia helped me out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago..._All-Star_Game

    Do any of you remember this being played? They seriously had a preseason game with the previous NFL champion vs. a team of just-graduated college seniors? Sounds like a bizarre concept given the nature of the game now. Interestingly, the NFL teams were 31-9-2 in the series..

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of sports teams that disappoint in the playoffs
    I just wanted to quickly chime in and praise the posters who have pointed out the advantage NBA guys have in terms of seasoning, experience, and physical maturity.

    What people sometimes fail to consider in these kind of absurd scenarios is that a professional male athlete tends to reach his physical peak in his mid-late 20s. Female athletes generally reach their peak 5 or so years earlier (which is one reason female tennis and golf is often dominated by teens -- something you never see in the male sports).

    So, when we look at the Wizard's roster versus the Kentucky one and we say "it is men playing against boys," that is absolutely the case. When we talk about some of these Kentucky kids being better pro prospects than anyone on the Wiz or Hornets rosters, and I think a couple of them are, it is worth noting that it will likely take a couple years in the NBA for those top "prospects" to reach anything close to their potential.

    The notion that the Wiz would not be a prohibitive favorite to win the NCAA tournament is a joke. No, they would not be a sure thing, but I would give them at least a 75% chance of winning - perhaps even higher. I doubt anyone would have given Kentucky or any of the great teams in recent NCAA history more than maybe a 25 or 30% chance of winning the NCAA tourney.

    It is fun to laugh and dream and talk about a really great college team versus a pro one, but it would be a joke of a mismatch. Saying otherwise is just foolish.

    -Jason "I recall thinking the same thing about 1999 Duke... which could not even beat the last college team it faced" Evans
    Don't ask me why, but my mother is making me Tweet. Says it will be good for my career. So, follow my ramblings, mostly on the film industry, @TVFilmTalk

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    So, when we look at the Wizard's roster versus the Kentucky one and we say "it is men playing against boys," that is absolutely the case. When we talk about some of these Kentucky kids being better pro prospects than anyone on the Wiz or Hornets rosters, and I think a couple of them are, it is worth noting that it will likely take a couple years in the NBA for those top "prospects" to reach anything close to their potential.
    Yep. There are several ways to look at it. This UK team has 2-3 lottery picks, a couple of 2nd rounders who could move up in a year or so (Lamb and Teague). Only two other players would even sniff the NBA (Wiltjer and Miller), and that would not be for another few years. The Wizards have 3 lottery picks, 3 more mid-first rounders, 2 more late-first rounders, and 4 2nd rounders who have each averaged over 8+ ppg for at least 2 years (2 of them have topped 15 ppg in a season, one earned a $10+ million per year contract) in the NBA. They are way deeper to begin with in terms of talent.

    And on top of that, you add the size (these guys are all as big or much bigger at the same positions, physical maturity, and additional strength training, practice time, and exposure to much better competition. The Wizards would regularly mop the floor with the Wildcats and any other team in college basketball. They could potentially lose a game against a #1 seed or a team that just couldn't miss from 3. But it'd be a very rare event and it would be the biggest upset ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    -Jason "I recall thinking the same thing about 1999 Duke... which could not even beat the last college team it faced" Evans
    One can draw some interesting parallels between this UK team and the 1999 Duke team. The 1999 team had 2 very good NBA players in Brand and Maggette, a strong role player in Battier, and 2 other players (Langdon and Avery) who spent fringe time in the league but were gone after their rookie contracts. Nobody else sniffed the NBA. The Wildcats have two guys very likely to be very good players in Davis and MKG, another guy who'll likely be a strong role player in Jones, and 2 others who will likely be fringe guys (Lamb and Teague). That said, MKG and Davis have a long way to go to be as productive as Maggette and Brand (prior to his injuries) have been, and Jones has a long way to go to match Battier.

    And I think that 1999 team would have gotten destroyed by this Wizards team.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    And I think that 1999 team would have gotten destroyed by this Wizards team.
    Steve Kerr weighed in on PTI last night and used the very same word ("destroy") to describe what the Wizards would do to Kentucky. I think I'm a party of 1 on this...

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Steve Kerr weighed in on PTI last night and used the very same word ("destroy") to describe what the Wizards would do to Kentucky. I think I'm a party of 1 on this...
    The only argument in favor of Kentucky is that the Wizards are the Wizards, seemingly capable of taking any advantage in any situation and wasting it.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    The only argument in favor of Kentucky is that the Wizards are the Wizards, seemingly capable of taking any advantage in any situation and wasting it.
    That's a far better articulation of my (party-of-1) argument than I have made. And I appreciate the tone in which it was made. As for Kentucky vs. Louisville, can both teams lose?

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    it is worth noting that it will likely take a couple years in the NBA for those top "prospects" to reach anything close to their potential.
    On the other hand, there are guys - the most recent example being Kyrie - who are better than a lot of NBA players from the moment they step onto the court. That's certainly not the norm, but maybe Anthony Davis is one of those guys.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Nashville
    There's also the fact the NBA players are grown men in their physical prime, while college players are still kids. Someone like Raja Bell would the runaway NPOY if you put him on a college team.

    Remember when they brought in the "USA select" team to scrimmage the national team, and the college guards couldn't even get the ball across halfcourt vs. Westbrook and Rondo? Just because Marquis Teague may eventually be a decent NBA player doesn't mean he wouldn't get absolutely destroyed today, versus current NBA players.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    About 150 feet in front of the Duke Chapel doors.
    Jaded Wizards fans like myself will appreciate this one. A Washington fan, tired of the Wizards' recent tendency to blow fourth quarter leads, posted this gem on Dan Steinberg's Washington Post Sports Bog:

    Pretty sure we crush Kentucky here. We're almost always up after 40 minutes.

    Now, if we're playing 48, we might have problems.
    JBDuke

    Andre Dawkins: “People ask me if I can still shoot, and I ask them if they can still breathe. That’s kind of the same thing.”

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by freedevil View Post
    Let me pose a different hypothetical -- I don't think the Washington Wizards, in the one-and-done format of the NCAA Tourney combined with their relatively unmotivated style of play, could win this year's National Championship. Just my opinion. Proceed to attack.
    I think they would win it 99 times out of 100 and win each game by no less than 20 to 40 each game. Seriously it is not even close! The one game error I had is just in case 7 players for Washington got hurt and the team they played was also ranked number one and that said team hit at least 15 3's shooting 60% or better from long range.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    well, hypothalamusly speaking, which rules (spoken and non-spoken) and which referees would we be using in this imaginary matchup?
    "Either we're going down, or they are....... Kirk out!"

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